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:: Saturday, November 21st, 2009Mad Moderate
Passionately centrist. Immoderately moderate. Mad as hell at radicals, fascists, dimwits, hypocrites and liars on right and left. Strong views from the middle on science, god, environment and country.Please visit these local CapeCodToday sponsors:
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Fox News Patriotism at The Ho
12/15/05 · 5:12 pm :: posted by Mike Marks
Orleans, MA - On Tuesday I had the soup and sandwich for lunch at Land Ho's bar. The boot clad 30 something guy to my right said loudly to the barkeeper, "could you change the channel from the Communist News Network to Fox - at least there they give news that's close to the truth." Hearing this the 50 something woman in a cashmere sweater to my left told her husband, "I agree with him." I thought about pointing out that my Manhattan clam chowder was a nice shade of red but kept my mouth shut. Then news about Gerald Ford came on and we all started talking. One thing led to another and we were onto the subject of Iraq.I sincerely believe that toppling Saddam and establishing democracy in Iraq are noble acts that serve our national interest - in concept. I'm not sure that these acts will be worth the cost. The staggering incompetence of the occupation has made success much harder to achieve. The President's father had good reasons to stop at Iraq's border after liberating Kuwait. He wrote about it in his book. It's a shame the President didn't honor his father by reading the book (or listening to his generals instead of Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney). All of that said, we're in Iraq now, and leaving prematurely would likely lead to something far worse than what we've already seen in Afghanistan or Sudan. We'd need to invade again. If I we're President I'd tell the country we should be prepared to stay in Iraq for twenty years or more.
Meanwhile, back at The Ho...
None of this was an issue on Tuesday at the Land Ho bar. Not directly anyway. Honesty and patriotism were the issues. My Fox News barmates were steamed at the idea of news sources regularly informing the public about the names of the soldiers who had been recently killed or on the tally of death to date. I asked, "doesn't it honor the soldiers and their families to have their names told to the public at large?" No, telling the entire countrythe names of those who had died was somehow unpatriotic.
I ventured the thought that we should all be sharing the sacrifices required by the war against terrorism, including reinstituting the draft. Mr 30 something responded to the effect that the guys and gals who enlisted in the Army and National Guard knew what they were getting into and could have chosen other jobs if they'd wanted them. Mercenaries were fine with him. The British had the right idea with the Hessians. "But if they invaded my town and threatened my home I'd be out there fighting you can be sure."
So, I asked, being a patriot requires nothing more than doing what's best for yourself and your business? Mr. 30-something replied that yes that's pretty much it. Ms. Cashmere noded assent. No need to sacrifice for the greater good of the country? Nope. There's no need since we could pay others to sacrifice for us. Following the tenets of Adam Smith and pursuingnaked self interest was all that was required to be a patriot.
J.F.K. had it wrong
John Kennedy had it wrong. In today's America the "patriots" say, "ask not what you can do for your country, ask what you can do for yourself." That kind of patriotism seems crazy to me. But then maybe I am crazy. After all, who eats Manhattan clam chowder on Cape Cod?
36 comments
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Brian [Visitor] writes:
So how is Fox News somehow part of a conversation about Iraq? Seems to me our author has a preconceived notion about what kind of people watch that channel and reaffirmed those thoughts with his own questions. Notice the 30 something is wearing boots, in other words a dumb hick, and our 50 something has a cashmere sweater on, in other words a rich old bitty. Both are stereotypes of conservatives or people that may vote for George Bush.
I have a problem with the names of the dead being printed in the paper or read on CBS because these news outlets portray these men and women as victims and they are not. When asked the great majority re-enlist even with the loss of life being an every day risk and many more everyday choose to enlist and join the infantry as one local high school student just proclaimed in a recent Cape Cod Times.
I have a problem with the names of the dead being printed in the paper or read on CBS because these news outlets portray these men and women as victims and they are not. When asked the great majority re-enlist even with the loss of life being an every day risk and many more everyday choose to enlist and join the infantry as one local high school student just proclaimed in a recent Cape Cod Times.
Brian [Visitor] writes:
Oh yea, if our author was in a bar full of Marines I am pretty sure he would have kept his mouth shut!
Mike, the author [Visitor] writes:
Of course the guys in the war zone aren't asking what they're doing for themselves. They're true old fashioned patriots... not like the false ones in the bar. That's my point.
tomato [Visitor] writes:
when the 'Land Ho' serves chowder raped by tomatoes, I'll believe any words here.
Anyone with a job to do, either does it, or in the case of the military, does the job or dies.
I see no dead people speaking. Any local bar MIGHT have one that has been there, done that. In the case of the Land Ho, he was involved in the death of one of his own, that failed in the line of duty.
And this was Vietnam, where the sophomoric template you are using was employed.
Yup, this 'author', would never speak, by evidence. So he is a liar.
Those that do, do not say.
Fox news, the mouthpiece of the new facism.
I can't wait to kill someone that is not 'us'. Wait, it's YOU!
Anyone with a job to do, either does it, or in the case of the military, does the job or dies.
I see no dead people speaking. Any local bar MIGHT have one that has been there, done that. In the case of the Land Ho, he was involved in the death of one of his own, that failed in the line of duty.
And this was Vietnam, where the sophomoric template you are using was employed.
Yup, this 'author', would never speak, by evidence. So he is a liar.
Those that do, do not say.
Fox news, the mouthpiece of the new facism.
I can't wait to kill someone that is not 'us'. Wait, it's YOU!
Drew [Visitor] writes:
Mike,
Your point seemed to be about far more than just false patriotism. You clearly present the opinion that supporters of this war are cowardly war mongers and self serving cretins. Rather than floating the question, maybe I should address you directly as the author: It would be much easier if those opposed to this war could successfully portray it as being such a self serving effort, supported only by misdirected patriotism. The case against the war would be open and shut. Do you really think this is the case?
Your point seemed to be about far more than just false patriotism. You clearly present the opinion that supporters of this war are cowardly war mongers and self serving cretins. Rather than floating the question, maybe I should address you directly as the author: It would be much easier if those opposed to this war could successfully portray it as being such a self serving effort, supported only by misdirected patriotism. The case against the war would be open and shut. Do you really think this is the case?
Mike, the author [Visitor] writes:
Drew, I think your reading my story incorrectly. I present my own view of the war as supportive in concept and disgusted by the incompetent execution of the occupation. The idea that it's patriotic to NOT publish the names of the soldiers who have died (or those who have been maimed) is appalling to me. If someone I loved died in Iraq I'd be proud of their service and I'd want their service to be known.
I don't believe that supporters of the war are cowards, war mongers or cretins. As I wrote, toppling Saddam and establishing Democracy in Iraq are noble causes and serve our national interest.
If the unintended consequences of the war - deaths of innocents, likely civil war, an emboldened Iran, failure to focus properly on Afghanistan - could be waved away I'd be a strong and unequivocal supporter.
But... such is not the case (although I was glad to read a positive Iraq story in the NY Times today that Sunnis voted in large numbers). Thus I am equivocal about having gone in... and (read above again) unequivocal about our need to stay to get things done right.
I don't believe that supporters of the war are cowards, war mongers or cretins. As I wrote, toppling Saddam and establishing Democracy in Iraq are noble causes and serve our national interest.
If the unintended consequences of the war - deaths of innocents, likely civil war, an emboldened Iran, failure to focus properly on Afghanistan - could be waved away I'd be a strong and unequivocal supporter.
But... such is not the case (although I was glad to read a positive Iraq story in the NY Times today that Sunnis voted in large numbers). Thus I am equivocal about having gone in... and (read above again) unequivocal about our need to stay to get things done right.
Brian [Visitor] writes:
I think this entire story may just be a part of Mike's imagination.
El Greco [Visitor] writes:
Poor, poor Mike. First, what moron eats Manhattan Clam Chowder on Cape Cod?
Second, it seems from the incredible stretches to which you have gone to nitpick, without really getting to a substantive point, that perhaps some gal turned you down at the Land Ho. Or some guy.
In fact, no gal I know would look twice at some guy eating that red stuff. Try New England Clam Chowder next time. You might have better luck.
Second, it seems from the incredible stretches to which you have gone to nitpick, without really getting to a substantive point, that perhaps some gal turned you down at the Land Ho. Or some guy.
In fact, no gal I know would look twice at some guy eating that red stuff. Try New England Clam Chowder next time. You might have better luck.
Drew [Visitor] writes:
Mark,
Would it be patriotic in your eyes to print the thoughts and words of our living soldiers as much as we are politicizing the dead? Some people opposing this war (this is not directed at you), seem to value our dead soldiers as political ammunition, far more than they respect the ideals and lives of our living soldiers. I think that it is you who are confused about people's objections to your idea of "honest" reporting. If we were being fed the same "honesty" about positive happenings in Iraq that we are negative, there would be no objection.
Am I reading your story incorrectly? Your "boot clad" character, and your 50 something woman in her "cashmere" sweater were painted as "red" from your story's beginning. It does not take a conservative or liberal eye to recognize your story was not limited to ridiculing those who question the politicizing of this war.
The hate that these fanatics are exhibiting in the Middle East was and is deeply rooted. They required no fuel from the "unintended consequences" of this war.
Would it be patriotic in your eyes to print the thoughts and words of our living soldiers as much as we are politicizing the dead? Some people opposing this war (this is not directed at you), seem to value our dead soldiers as political ammunition, far more than they respect the ideals and lives of our living soldiers. I think that it is you who are confused about people's objections to your idea of "honest" reporting. If we were being fed the same "honesty" about positive happenings in Iraq that we are negative, there would be no objection.
Am I reading your story incorrectly? Your "boot clad" character, and your 50 something woman in her "cashmere" sweater were painted as "red" from your story's beginning. It does not take a conservative or liberal eye to recognize your story was not limited to ridiculing those who question the politicizing of this war.
The hate that these fanatics are exhibiting in the Middle East was and is deeply rooted. They required no fuel from the "unintended consequences" of this war.
Mike [Visitor] writes:
Drew - Good and bad, I want all of us to know the full truth about the war... with respect for the fact that certain truths (Abu Ghraib) harm America when they are told to our enemies but are useful and important for us to know as citizens. I didn't make up the conversation or people in my story. In all fairness, I don't think that either the woman or the man, on cool reflection, would agree with my transformation of JFK's phrase. But, but, but... the fact is that because this war hasn't required sacrifice from all of us, it's been far too easy to wave the flag in support of it.
I'm all for hearing from living soldiers and wish there'd been some next to me at Land Ho last Tuesday.
Finally, I didn't paint anything... the guy painted himself when he referred to CNN as the Communist News Network.
I'm all for hearing from living soldiers and wish there'd been some next to me at Land Ho last Tuesday.
Finally, I didn't paint anything... the guy painted himself when he referred to CNN as the Communist News Network.
Peter Porcupine [Visitor] writes:
Greco - Personally, I refuse to believe that a restarant in Orleans would SERVE Manhattan Clam Chowder. I'm hiding in Cap'n Elmer's, watching the Faux News Network, until this blot is cleared from the town's escutcheon.
Brian [Visitor] writes:
Mark just admit it, you have been caught! Turns out we conservative aren't as dumb as you think we are!
Brian [Visitor] writes:
I like this Kenndy quote best but it is never quoted by the anti-war people, liberals, or Democrats. You would most likley see it read on Fox News, not CNN, ABC, NBC or any other MSM.
"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty. This much we pledge—and more".
"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty. This much we pledge—and more".
Mike [Visitor] writes:
Caught??? Eating red chowder? I plead guilty, guilty, guilty.
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Great quote, Brian, from a speech that has lost none of its importance. Here's another quote from JFK that is rarely cited - "Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men."
Mike, the author [Visitor] writes:
Brian, Jack - Both quotes from Kennedy are great. One of my biggest diappointments with the current President Bush is that after 9/11 when ALL OF US, wanted to sacrifice for the good of the nation he squandered that collective desire and asked us to... go shopping. It was a huge missed opportunity that could have brought everyone together and served to create a long term foundation of support to fight terrorists. Brian, before you get yourself all puffed up about liberals not supporting the cause of liberty please remember that President Clinton, over the objections of most Republicans, engaged us in supporting the cause of freedom in Yugoslavia. Whether you like Clinton or not, whether the pre-9/11 default isolationist tendancies of the Republicans were right or not... that is a fact.
The one thing I find interesting in the comments here is that my position is being characterized as "liberal". I believe that everything I've written on this subject would be seconded by both Pat Buchanan and John McCain. Could someone please explain to this me?
The one thing I find interesting in the comments here is that my position is being characterized as "liberal". I believe that everything I've written on this subject would be seconded by both Pat Buchanan and John McCain. Could someone please explain to this me?
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Thanks, Mad Moderate. I think you're right about that initial error made by Bush, one he has perpetuated ever since. But in fairness to the man, to what extent is the American public willing to accept sacrifices to fight Islamic fanatics? One of the first things Bush warned us about after Sept 11 was of a long struggle and this observation has been borne out.
I can anticipate the response from those who disagree - that attacking Iraq needlessly diverted attention away from the war on terror while also perpetuating it. But those who believe this downplay or ignore that Iraq was a serious problem for years before Sept 11 - hence the sanctions (imposed by the UN, not US), no-fly zones and American military presence in The Land of The Two Holy Places.
As for Pat Buchanan, I don't think he would agree with you that deposing Saddam was in our national interests. The divide over Iraq is largely partisan, but not entirely, as you point out - there are Democratic hawks like Joe Lieberman who believe the war is justified, just as there are conservative isolationists like Buchanan who do not.
I can anticipate the response from those who disagree - that attacking Iraq needlessly diverted attention away from the war on terror while also perpetuating it. But those who believe this downplay or ignore that Iraq was a serious problem for years before Sept 11 - hence the sanctions (imposed by the UN, not US), no-fly zones and American military presence in The Land of The Two Holy Places.
As for Pat Buchanan, I don't think he would agree with you that deposing Saddam was in our national interests. The divide over Iraq is largely partisan, but not entirely, as you point out - there are Democratic hawks like Joe Lieberman who believe the war is justified, just as there are conservative isolationists like Buchanan who do not.
Mad Moderate [Visitor] writes:
Thanks for the comments Jack. Yes, Pat Buchanan was against going in but he's now saying that we need to stay to get things right.
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Good point, Mike. It is where Buchanan parts company with those on the other side of the aisle he found himself uncharacteristically agreeing with before the war.
Brian [Visitor] writes:
Mike the reason he asked people to go shopping is because everyone was afraid it could happen again. In case you forgot that attack crippled the economy for many many months. In many cases going on with our lives as normal was the most patriotic act that the great majority could take part in and going shopping was to send the message that we are not afraid.
In my opinion your blog did not start off as something posted by a moderate, it had more of a taste of a left wing whacko. For one, many moderates watch Fox News and so do many liberals it's not just hicks and the rich as your alluded to in your blog.
If your going to post a moderate minded blog that's great, but I know a moderate when I see one and so far your not one of them.
In my opinion your blog did not start off as something posted by a moderate, it had more of a taste of a left wing whacko. For one, many moderates watch Fox News and so do many liberals it's not just hicks and the rich as your alluded to in your blog.
If your going to post a moderate minded blog that's great, but I know a moderate when I see one and so far your not one of them.
Mad Moderate [Visitor] writes:
Brian, Brian, Brian - The story I told is true. You may not like it. But there it is. I watch Fox News and enjoy it. I agree with O'Reilly approx 1/2 the time, Cavuto somewhat more and (to borrow someone else's oberservation) think Sean Hannity is a comedian doing an impersonation of a right wing talk show host. Let me also add that I was wearing both boots and a cashmere sweater that day.
FWIW I told the story tonight to a friend of mine, an ex Navy SEAL who had 12 friends killed in Panama in the fight to remove Manuel Noriega. He was emphatic that he wants the names of the dead told to the country. Here's a small project for you... find some veterans or active military who feel it's wrong to air the names of the dead.
Now, to the point about shopping. Yes, the economy was a factor, and yes, fair enough, acting normal to show that the terrorists didn't affects us. Bush should still have taken that opportunity to call on us to do something... he should have reinstituted national service.
FWIW I told the story tonight to a friend of mine, an ex Navy SEAL who had 12 friends killed in Panama in the fight to remove Manuel Noriega. He was emphatic that he wants the names of the dead told to the country. Here's a small project for you... find some veterans or active military who feel it's wrong to air the names of the dead.
Now, to the point about shopping. Yes, the economy was a factor, and yes, fair enough, acting normal to show that the terrorists didn't affects us. Bush should still have taken that opportunity to call on us to do something... he should have reinstituted national service.
Drew [Visitor] writes:
Mad Moderate,
You ask Brian to "find some veterans or active military who feel it's wrong to air the names of the dead." You continue to misrepresent (or misunderstand) the arguments here. So far, the chief arguments against your misportrayal of these people's patriotism have been:
1) The soldiers names are not just being aired, they are being portrayed as victims.
2) We should be giving the opinions of our living soldiers just as much, if not more, airtime as politically motivated stories of the dead.
I am certain Brian, or anyone else, would have trouble finding veterans or active military who feel it is wrong to air the names of the dead. That is not what the arguments here have been about. The challenge would be to find many veterans or active military who support the dead being used as a soapbox for a political agenda. Another real challenge would be to find an outlet in our local media (Boston, New York, Cape Cod, Washington) that gives the voices of our active military the same space as politically slanted stories against the war.
You ask Brian to "find some veterans or active military who feel it's wrong to air the names of the dead." You continue to misrepresent (or misunderstand) the arguments here. So far, the chief arguments against your misportrayal of these people's patriotism have been:
1) The soldiers names are not just being aired, they are being portrayed as victims.
2) We should be giving the opinions of our living soldiers just as much, if not more, airtime as politically motivated stories of the dead.
I am certain Brian, or anyone else, would have trouble finding veterans or active military who feel it is wrong to air the names of the dead. That is not what the arguments here have been about. The challenge would be to find many veterans or active military who support the dead being used as a soapbox for a political agenda. Another real challenge would be to find an outlet in our local media (Boston, New York, Cape Cod, Washington) that gives the voices of our active military the same space as politically slanted stories against the war.
Brian [Visitor] writes:
Mike I rarely ever watch Fox News. I get most of my information from the internet.
Anyways, I will find a soldier that objects to the names of the dead being told to the country and you find veterans or active military who support the dead being used as a soapbox for a political agenda, because that is what the media does!
You do realize that 4 SEALs died in Panama, eight were wounded.
Anyways, I will find a soldier that objects to the names of the dead being told to the country and you find veterans or active military who support the dead being used as a soapbox for a political agenda, because that is what the media does!
You do realize that 4 SEALs died in Panama, eight were wounded.
Mad Moderate [Visitor] writes:
Drew - These guys and gals died for our country. I don't see any slant or political motivation in making that known. It seems to me that certain supporters of the current President believe that any bad news is unpatriotic.
If we're gonna do this Iraq thing right we need strong stomachs and we need the truth. In the face of massive corruption, incompetence and deaths should the media keep quiet? It damn well better not. If you want this country to continue supporting the occupation then the occupation needs to be held accountable... and that means more than saying "...you're doing a heck of a job."
With regard to active military voices - I think we're getting as much as the military allows. But agree that more would be better.
Finally, please answer this simple question yourself: Does patriotism require
sacrifice?
If we're gonna do this Iraq thing right we need strong stomachs and we need the truth. In the face of massive corruption, incompetence and deaths should the media keep quiet? It damn well better not. If you want this country to continue supporting the occupation then the occupation needs to be held accountable... and that means more than saying "...you're doing a heck of a job."
With regard to active military voices - I think we're getting as much as the military allows. But agree that more would be better.
Finally, please answer this simple question yourself: Does patriotism require
sacrifice?
Drew [Member] writes:
Mad Moderate,
Your description of this war as an "occupation" reveals more about where your story is really coming from than your not-so-subtle stereotypes of "red" chowder, boot clad guys and cashmere sweaters.
You still do not get, or are intentionally misrepresenting the arguments here. There is no slant or political motivation in making soldiers names known. Nobody here has said there is. You keep ducking and dodging the arguments presented you like a seasoned politician.
Nobody is asking that the media keep quiet. We are asking that the media report the facts, positive and negative. The omission of positive stories about happenings in Iraq, and editing or ignoring our soldier's words, should be just as disagreeable to us all as censorship. Portraying our dead soldiers as victims when reporting their names is ignorant of war's realities, and making their coffins into political soap boxes.
Patriotism requires sacrifice from us all. Did you support the Patriot Act? Would you agree that living with it has been worth the sacrifice?
Your description of this war as an "occupation" reveals more about where your story is really coming from than your not-so-subtle stereotypes of "red" chowder, boot clad guys and cashmere sweaters.
You still do not get, or are intentionally misrepresenting the arguments here. There is no slant or political motivation in making soldiers names known. Nobody here has said there is. You keep ducking and dodging the arguments presented you like a seasoned politician.
Nobody is asking that the media keep quiet. We are asking that the media report the facts, positive and negative. The omission of positive stories about happenings in Iraq, and editing or ignoring our soldier's words, should be just as disagreeable to us all as censorship. Portraying our dead soldiers as victims when reporting their names is ignorant of war's realities, and making their coffins into political soap boxes.
Patriotism requires sacrifice from us all. Did you support the Patriot Act? Would you agree that living with it has been worth the sacrifice?
Mad Moderate [Visitor] writes:
Brian - I hope you'll understand if I don't challnge my friend's version of events in Panama. Here's what I'll ask... should the names be told in furtherance of a political agenda of truth? Of course, the answer is yes.
Please explain how CNN or Ted Koppel have been staking out an antiwar position by airing the names? Since you don't watch those programs let me tell you that the "Main Stream Media" (even excluding Fox, though they are part of it) has aired many positive Iraq stories. Moreover, to my knowledge, Fox has never aired the names... isn't there spomething wrong with that? Or should we NOT know who's paid the ultimate sacrifice for all of us?
Please explain how CNN or Ted Koppel have been staking out an antiwar position by airing the names? Since you don't watch those programs let me tell you that the "Main Stream Media" (even excluding Fox, though they are part of it) has aired many positive Iraq stories. Moreover, to my knowledge, Fox has never aired the names... isn't there spomething wrong with that? Or should we NOT know who's paid the ultimate sacrifice for all of us?
Mad Moderate [Visitor] writes:
Drew - 1. you missed my joke about red chowder (I suppose you're under 45). Red used to mean "Communist" - I was referring to the guy's comment about CNN. 2. I used the word occupation not for political slant but a) because that's what we've been doing and b) because it's shorter and pithier than "the period following the invasion." If you have a better word for what we've been doing I'll use it.
3. The NY TIMES PUBLISHED GOOD NEWS ABOUT THE ELECTION LAST THURSDAY. I've seen Anderson Cooper say good things about electricity and schools. I've read/seen plenty of positive stories. But to make things better we need to hear what's wrong. If the wheels on your car fall off after a visit to the mechanic you don't praise his work on the windshield wipers.
4. What I see here is that ardent supporters of the current President believe that bad news is bad for "their guy" and that "truth" means only good news.
5. With regard to the Patriot Act and the current imbriglio over domestic spying - Support, yes, with constitutional congressional oversight.
3. The NY TIMES PUBLISHED GOOD NEWS ABOUT THE ELECTION LAST THURSDAY. I've seen Anderson Cooper say good things about electricity and schools. I've read/seen plenty of positive stories. But to make things better we need to hear what's wrong. If the wheels on your car fall off after a visit to the mechanic you don't praise his work on the windshield wipers.
4. What I see here is that ardent supporters of the current President believe that bad news is bad for "their guy" and that "truth" means only good news.
5. With regard to the Patriot Act and the current imbriglio over domestic spying - Support, yes, with constitutional congressional oversight.
Mad Moderate [Visitor] writes:
Drew - Okay, fair thought about it,"occupation" describes what we're doing but not why we're doing it. How about "occupation/reconstruction"? Does that work for you? Is there a single word for that?
Brian [Visitor] writes:
Is Carl Marx a relative of yours or are you just trying to tell us something?
This guy thinks we are idiots!
Read this little article, "Mad Moderate" http://www.newsroom.ucla.edu/page.asp?RelNum=6664
This guy thinks we are idiots!
Read this little article, "Mad Moderate" http://www.newsroom.ucla.edu/page.asp?RelNum=6664
Mad Mocderate [Visitor] writes:
Okay Brian - I took a quick look at the article you pointed to. Here's what I saw:
"The most centrist outlet proved to be the 'NewsHour With Jim Lehrer.' CNN's "NewsNight With Aaron Brown" and ABC's "Good Morning America" were a close second and third."
I'm not trying to simply tell you something. I'm trying to SELL you something. I'm trying to sell you on the idea that airing the names of the servicemen and women who died for our country is the proper thing to do. Aaron Brown did just that and, according to the report on media bias you cite, he's just one tick off dead center.
I'd like to hear your answer to the question I asked Drew. Does patriotism require sacrifice?
"The most centrist outlet proved to be the 'NewsHour With Jim Lehrer.' CNN's "NewsNight With Aaron Brown" and ABC's "Good Morning America" were a close second and third."
I'm not trying to simply tell you something. I'm trying to SELL you something. I'm trying to sell you on the idea that airing the names of the servicemen and women who died for our country is the proper thing to do. Aaron Brown did just that and, according to the report on media bias you cite, he's just one tick off dead center.
I'd like to hear your answer to the question I asked Drew. Does patriotism require sacrifice?
Great Gadfly [Visitor] writes:
Patriotism requires whatever is needed. If sacrifice is called for, or hard work, or honesty, or fairness, or charity...that is what is needed.
The idea that we should not know the names of the dead flies in the face of our traditional belief that their supreme sacrifice has value and is noble. Let's scrape the names off the Wall, let's not feel an extra pang of sadness as we contemplate tombs of unknown soldiers.
This blog is truly disturbing. As I understand it Mike Marks found in the people around him at the Ho some clear contrasts if he were to take their appearnecs and ages as indicators of their beliefs. It sems the books belied their covers.
And who really cares what color his chowder was?...it was HIS chowder.
By the way...El Greco....here you are! How is the research going?
The idea that we should not know the names of the dead flies in the face of our traditional belief that their supreme sacrifice has value and is noble. Let's scrape the names off the Wall, let's not feel an extra pang of sadness as we contemplate tombs of unknown soldiers.
This blog is truly disturbing. As I understand it Mike Marks found in the people around him at the Ho some clear contrasts if he were to take their appearnecs and ages as indicators of their beliefs. It sems the books belied their covers.
And who really cares what color his chowder was?...it was HIS chowder.
By the way...El Greco....here you are! How is the research going?
Mad Moderate [Visitor] writes:
Thanks GG. I agree that patriotism doesn't require sacrifice per se... but it does require a willingness to sacrifice when that is called for. It also requires deep respect for those who have sacrificed for us and not a simple dimissive, "that's a career choice," washing of hands. The labels I used for the people at the bar were accurate and convenient. But it seems that they were also a big distraction for Drew and Brian.
Anonymous [Visitor] writes:
It amazes me that there are some who feel those who die in combat should not be memorialized in the news. These are obituaries. They are my only knowledge of those who have given their lives at the request of their country. I am always struck by the vitality and diversity of the lives we have lost.
I think it would be rude not to watch these telecasts, even though no one would ever know if I changed the channel. It is a matter of respect and these programs should not be diminished into a right/wrong or liberal/conservative panderings.
I think it would be rude not to watch these telecasts, even though no one would ever know if I changed the channel. It is a matter of respect and these programs should not be diminished into a right/wrong or liberal/conservative panderings.
ekzept [Visitor] writes:
IMO it's interesting how conversations about politics these days devolve into people justifying their position, or the country's position, or what should be the country's position based upon who can smash whose head in. and that says what, exactly?
hate to say it folks, but we are being collectively outmaneuvered by the up-and-comings, notably China. despite the size of their military, they seem to get a lot of what they want by talking and negotiating and cajoling, not by threatening to bash heads in or blow things up. we may or may not be the world's "lone superpower", but it's sure costing us going the way we're going. if it keeps up, we aren't gonna be there long.
time to change directions, i'd say.
hate to say it folks, but we are being collectively outmaneuvered by the up-and-comings, notably China. despite the size of their military, they seem to get a lot of what they want by talking and negotiating and cajoling, not by threatening to bash heads in or blow things up. we may or may not be the world's "lone superpower", but it's sure costing us going the way we're going. if it keeps up, we aren't gonna be there long.
time to change directions, i'd say.
ekzept [Visitor] writes:
the other thing that bugs me about people's collective views of politics or international relations is that they regard them almost exactly the same way they would sports teams, rootin' for one side or another to the bitter end. sports and teams are lousy models for reality.
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Born in Los Angeles in 1957 Mike Marks grew up with a love of California's beaches, deserts, mountains and big trees. After graduating in economics from UCLA Mike went on to become a commercial photographer in New York City. Today he lives on Cape Cod with his wife and two young daughters
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We should concentrate just as much on the purpose of our living soldiers and their perpective on this war as we do on the importance of each and every one that does not make it home. Had you been in a bar full of Marines, I wonder what course your conversation would have taken.
It would be much easier if those opposed to this war could reduce the supporters of it to war mongers and self serving cretins, with screwed up ideas of patriotism. It would be a simple, open and shut case, but is it?