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Heat Wave - Watch ISO NE Today & Tomorrow
08/01/06 · 10:46 am :: posted by Chuck Kleekamp
The price rises with the temperature
You may be interested in tracking the electrical load on the New England grid today and tomorrow. It’s easy. Just go the website: iso-ne.com and look at the LMP Price Ticker on the right.
Windsmart will love this. Squeeze the size of the page and put it in a corner of your screen so you can glance at it anytime. How about a pool to guess the maximum price and load today?
Note, this ticker wholesale price is in dollars per megawatt-hour (MWh). To convert to our usual way of thinking, that is, in terms of cents per kilowatt-hour (kWh), simply divide by 10. Thus, (86.67 is the same as 8.667 cents per kWh. That was the price at 9:25 AM today with a load of 22,156 megawatts.
The ticker also shows the instantaneous New England Load in megawatts (MW). Note the installed generating capacity is 30,617 MW.
This ticker rolls through all the zones (Z) in New England and is updated every 5 minutes. It also shows the tie lines to New England from surrounding areas outside our boundary.
A note of explanation. LMP stands for Locational Marginal Pricing. It varies from state-to-state depending on how much generating capacity is on line in that state, (the “Energy Component”), how much a cost is associated with the capacity of transmission lines connected to that state (the “Congestion Component”), and the “Loss Component” that is the loss in the transmission lines due to their internal electrical resistance.
The zones were originally just the states themselves. Now however, Massachusetts is divided into three zones: West and Central Mass, (WCMASS); Southeast Mass, that’s us (SEMASS); and Northeast Mass including Boston (NEMASSBOST).
The high voltage tie lines that allow power under contract to flow in and out of New England:
- The Cross Sound Cable (Long Island Sound, 330 MW, usually sending power to Long Island)
- Highgate
- New Brunswick (usually bringing power in from New Brunswick)
- New York AC (the state of New York, AC? Its not air conditioning)
- Phase I/II
- Internal Hub
As the load approaches the maximum installed capacity along with the capacity of the tie lines, the price goes up dramatically. That’s when expensive peaker plants come online. The last really big summer load on the grid was August 14, 2002 with a Boston temperature of 101 degrees. The price went from a low at 5 AM of $26.86/MWh to a max of $1,000.00/MWh during 3 to 5 PM.
Today, the weatherman says it will be 95° in Boston, tomorrow, 100°
If you would like to read more about ISO NE refer to my Footnotes Blog of 05/11/06, titled: “Understanding ISO New England and Wind.”
In addition, if you’re really into it, click on the ISO “Morning Report” under “At a Glance”, upper right corner. Lots of interesting stuff... but perhaps a longer explanation.
67 comments
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Chuck Kleekamp [Member] writes:
A note to Thumper,
You make some intelligent points and ask good questions.
The cut in speed of the GE turbines is 8 MPH.
At the year round average of 19 MPH each turbine would generate 1.33 MW from the GE performance curves. Multiply by 130 turbines the wind farm would generate 170 MW on the average.
The turbine blades will be feathered and locked down at speeds over 56 MPH.
You are right about summer wind. It is indeed considerably lower on the average that in the winter (when there is a crisis for both electricity and natural gas to both heat our homes and run the gas fired power plants.
However, right now (1:47PM, Tuesday) the wind on the sound is at 15 knots (multiply by 1.15 to get MPH) which is: 17 MPH.
If you look at the Cape Wind Web site http://capewind.whgrp.com/ you’ll see that over the last hour the farm would have produced 184 MW. Scroll down and you’ll see the wind speed for the last 12 hours.
Regards,
Chuck Kleekamp
You make some intelligent points and ask good questions.
The cut in speed of the GE turbines is 8 MPH.
At the year round average of 19 MPH each turbine would generate 1.33 MW from the GE performance curves. Multiply by 130 turbines the wind farm would generate 170 MW on the average.
The turbine blades will be feathered and locked down at speeds over 56 MPH.
You are right about summer wind. It is indeed considerably lower on the average that in the winter (when there is a crisis for both electricity and natural gas to both heat our homes and run the gas fired power plants.
However, right now (1:47PM, Tuesday) the wind on the sound is at 15 knots (multiply by 1.15 to get MPH) which is: 17 MPH.
If you look at the Cape Wind Web site http://capewind.whgrp.com/ you’ll see that over the last hour the farm would have produced 184 MW. Scroll down and you’ll see the wind speed for the last 12 hours.
Regards,
Chuck Kleekamp
Chuck Kleekamp [Member] writes:
An update.
The temperature (in the shade) at my house in Sandwich is 93 degrees now (3:20 PM). My wife tells me the Stop & Shop in East Sandwich is closing because they lost power and have emptied all the freezers... (I wonder where all that stuff goes?).
What’s next? My computer backup power supply is rated for 5 minutes (enough time to shut down without loosing my latest work). Too hot to work outside.
Well there’s always the fan... oh, forgot it won’t work either. Guess I’ll go out and sit under the lawn sprinkler. Where’s my wind turbine?
Regards,
Chuck K.
The temperature (in the shade) at my house in Sandwich is 93 degrees now (3:20 PM). My wife tells me the Stop & Shop in East Sandwich is closing because they lost power and have emptied all the freezers... (I wonder where all that stuff goes?).
What’s next? My computer backup power supply is rated for 5 minutes (enough time to shut down without loosing my latest work). Too hot to work outside.
Well there’s always the fan... oh, forgot it won’t work either. Guess I’ll go out and sit under the lawn sprinkler. Where’s my wind turbine?
Regards,
Chuck K.
Thumper [Member] writes:
I think Peckham may have won himself a lobsta bake, unless someone has a picture of him near S&S in Sandwich with bolt cutters.
Chuck Kleekamp [Member] writes:
Another Update on the price and system stability. 4:40 PM, 8/1/06
Watching the ISO ticker, I see the wholesale price on the tie lines (Highgate, New York AC, and Phase I/II) just hit $1,000/MWh (that’s one dollar per kWh). That’s the regulatory limit. Southeast Mass (SEMASS) zone (here) is at $597.86/MWh.
ISO NE has put Northeast Massachusetts zone (that’s Boston and north) and Vermont on an Emergency Operation Level 4 (OP4) until 6PM today.
Among other things that may mean the New England Control Area's available Resources are insufficient to meet the anticipated load plus Operating Reserve Requirements, or one or more contingencies have occurred resulting in an immediate deficiency, or transmission facilities into a sub area of the New England Control Area are loaded beyond established transfer capabilities.
The next level is OP7, The need to implement manual load shedding. That means rolling blackouts. We’re not quite there yet.
Cross your fingers. The wind farm would be producing 150MW of power right now.
Regards,
Chuck Kleekamp
Watching the ISO ticker, I see the wholesale price on the tie lines (Highgate, New York AC, and Phase I/II) just hit $1,000/MWh (that’s one dollar per kWh). That’s the regulatory limit. Southeast Mass (SEMASS) zone (here) is at $597.86/MWh.
ISO NE has put Northeast Massachusetts zone (that’s Boston and north) and Vermont on an Emergency Operation Level 4 (OP4) until 6PM today.
Among other things that may mean the New England Control Area's available Resources are insufficient to meet the anticipated load plus Operating Reserve Requirements, or one or more contingencies have occurred resulting in an immediate deficiency, or transmission facilities into a sub area of the New England Control Area are loaded beyond established transfer capabilities.
The next level is OP7, The need to implement manual load shedding. That means rolling blackouts. We’re not quite there yet.
Cross your fingers. The wind farm would be producing 150MW of power right now.
Regards,
Chuck Kleekamp
Chuck Kleekamp [Member] writes:
A note to Capri, 7:50 PM
Certainly Clean Power Now, as you note, believes in conservation and efficiency. It comes first and easiest. And I hope all responsible folks follow the admonition of the Cape Light Compact (a government organization right here on the Cape) of switching to compact fluorescent bulbs, energy star appliances (with CLC rebates in some cases), LED traffic lights,... and on... a very admiral job! I certainly follow these recommendations myself and I hope you do to.
That being said, pleas for efficiency and conservation alone are not curbing the growth for electricity. Clean Power Now can’t fight all the battles. We are focused on obtaining renewable energy, namely the easiest, quickest, and most benign that is wind power, especially from utility scale projects like Cape Wind.
My point today (and tomorrow) is that in spite of all good will and efforts efficiency and conservation is simply not enough. The load is increasing. Where do you want the rolling blackouts to begin... your neighborhood, mine, or some one else’s.
Regards,
Chuck Kleekamp
Certainly Clean Power Now, as you note, believes in conservation and efficiency. It comes first and easiest. And I hope all responsible folks follow the admonition of the Cape Light Compact (a government organization right here on the Cape) of switching to compact fluorescent bulbs, energy star appliances (with CLC rebates in some cases), LED traffic lights,... and on... a very admiral job! I certainly follow these recommendations myself and I hope you do to.
That being said, pleas for efficiency and conservation alone are not curbing the growth for electricity. Clean Power Now can’t fight all the battles. We are focused on obtaining renewable energy, namely the easiest, quickest, and most benign that is wind power, especially from utility scale projects like Cape Wind.
My point today (and tomorrow) is that in spite of all good will and efforts efficiency and conservation is simply not enough. The load is increasing. Where do you want the rolling blackouts to begin... your neighborhood, mine, or some one else’s.
Regards,
Chuck Kleekamp
Self Reliance [Member] writes:
Time 2:20 pm, Date, 8/2/06
LMP price for SE MA $1005.79/MWh ($1.00/kWh)
Wind Speed on Nantucket Sound 17 knots
Production over last hour if Cape Wind were built (171 MWh)
That's enough to power 171,000 window air conditioners during that hour. Or the total electricity demand of 28.5 typical households for a full year.
LMP price for SE MA $1005.79/MWh ($1.00/kWh)
Wind Speed on Nantucket Sound 17 knots
Production over last hour if Cape Wind were built (171 MWh)
That's enough to power 171,000 window air conditioners during that hour. Or the total electricity demand of 28.5 typical households for a full year.
Chuck Kleekamp [Member] writes:
Capri,
So you do think we need more electric plants?
Right now, 2:36 PM we are at 27,960 MW, well above yesterday’s record breaker of 27,401 and last year’s record of 25, 282 MW. Looks like, in spite of the governor’s and mayor’s pleas on TV, we are consuming more and more.
ISO NE has put all of New England on a “Power Watch,” with “Action 12,” which means a warning of reducing voltage 5% within 10 minutes.
So if not peakers what else? And who will build them? Will they make a profit? Or should the government take over the electric industry?
One way to get people to use less electricity is to double its retail cost like in Europe. The financial incentive to get efficient is great. It’s either that or more power plants.
Right now the wind farm would be generating 236 MW of pollution free power that would offset fossil plants’ equivalent production.
Regards,
Chuck Kleekamp
So you do think we need more electric plants?
Right now, 2:36 PM we are at 27,960 MW, well above yesterday’s record breaker of 27,401 and last year’s record of 25, 282 MW. Looks like, in spite of the governor’s and mayor’s pleas on TV, we are consuming more and more.
ISO NE has put all of New England on a “Power Watch,” with “Action 12,” which means a warning of reducing voltage 5% within 10 minutes.
So if not peakers what else? And who will build them? Will they make a profit? Or should the government take over the electric industry?
One way to get people to use less electricity is to double its retail cost like in Europe. The financial incentive to get efficient is great. It’s either that or more power plants.
Right now the wind farm would be generating 236 MW of pollution free power that would offset fossil plants’ equivalent production.
Regards,
Chuck Kleekamp
Self Reliance [Member] writes:
Well Capri,
According to this article, nuclear power plants are starting to have trouble cooling themselves during times of severe heat.
"Global warming is showing the limits of nuclear power plants, and nuclear power is destroying our environment."
http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=34121
"The heat wave since mid-June has led authorities in France, Germany, Spain and elsewhere in Europe to override their own environmental norms on the maximum temperature of water drained from the plants' cooling systems."
"Meanwhile France is importing some 2000 megawatts of power per day from neighbouring countries to compensate for shortages in production at nuclear power plants.
While the French authorities have overridden their own environmental norms, in Germany energy providers have slowed down some nuclear reactors to limit waste water temperature and to protect flora and fauna."
According to this article, nuclear power plants are starting to have trouble cooling themselves during times of severe heat.
"Global warming is showing the limits of nuclear power plants, and nuclear power is destroying our environment."
http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=34121
"The heat wave since mid-June has led authorities in France, Germany, Spain and elsewhere in Europe to override their own environmental norms on the maximum temperature of water drained from the plants' cooling systems."
"Meanwhile France is importing some 2000 megawatts of power per day from neighbouring countries to compensate for shortages in production at nuclear power plants.
While the French authorities have overridden their own environmental norms, in Germany energy providers have slowed down some nuclear reactors to limit waste water temperature and to protect flora and fauna."
Self Reliance [Member] writes:
We must be approaching some kind of crisis on the grid. I just got a call from NSTAR giving me tips on ways that we can save energy during these hot days. Now you've got to ask yourself why the electric company would be calling their customers to ask them to use less of the product that they are selling.
Chuck Kleekamp [Member] writes:
A note to Capri,
Certainly conservation is important, we can both agree on that. However it’s not stopping people from building new houses, buying new appliances, TVs, etc. Regardless of the governor’s, mayor’s pleas, little is happening. Perhaps just enough cajoling today to avoid blackouts, but that’s not an answer to our long term problems. And we can’t limit the size of the growing population, although some wish we could. So demand grows.
You may disagree, but as I see it, like the Europeans, the answer is in renewable energy, specifically, you know it... wind power. With the dozen or more offshore unit in operation and several more under construction they have not caused the disasters you are afraid of.
As for alternate sites, the Army Corps examined some 17 different terrestrial and offshore sites. The most viable was... you know. The second and third were also in Nantucket Sound.
Mr. Cashman has found three sites he thinks are the next best viable options in Buzzards Bay.. We’ll see. There will be more.
Regards,
Chuck Kleekamp
Certainly conservation is important, we can both agree on that. However it’s not stopping people from building new houses, buying new appliances, TVs, etc. Regardless of the governor’s, mayor’s pleas, little is happening. Perhaps just enough cajoling today to avoid blackouts, but that’s not an answer to our long term problems. And we can’t limit the size of the growing population, although some wish we could. So demand grows.
You may disagree, but as I see it, like the Europeans, the answer is in renewable energy, specifically, you know it... wind power. With the dozen or more offshore unit in operation and several more under construction they have not caused the disasters you are afraid of.
As for alternate sites, the Army Corps examined some 17 different terrestrial and offshore sites. The most viable was... you know. The second and third were also in Nantucket Sound.
Mr. Cashman has found three sites he thinks are the next best viable options in Buzzards Bay.. We’ll see. There will be more.
Regards,
Chuck Kleekamp
Self Reliance [Member] writes:
Nantucket Sound is not a peat bog.
Please show us an article or report that shows that an offshore wind farm has been deemed an "ecological diaster".
If you can I'm sure that most of the numerous environmental organizations who currently support Cape Wind might be persuaded to oppose the project.
The offshore wind farms that Chuck and I have visited in Europe have proved to benefit the marine and avian life around them.
Please show us an article or report that shows that an offshore wind farm has been deemed an "ecological diaster".
If you can I'm sure that most of the numerous environmental organizations who currently support Cape Wind might be persuaded to oppose the project.
The offshore wind farms that Chuck and I have visited in Europe have proved to benefit the marine and avian life around them.
Self Reliance [Member] writes:
Some species are attraced to the area, it is thought because of the increased amount of food to be found around the base of the turbines, others avoid the area after turbines are in place.
Here's a quote from the summary of one document.
"At Horns Rev Divers, Common Scoter and Guillemot/
Razorbill showed an increased avoidance
of the wind farm area after the erection of the
wind turbines, including also zones of 2 and 4
km around the wind farm. In contrast Herring
Gull, Little Gull and Arctic/Common Tern showed
an increased preference for the wind farm area,
while Great Black-backed Gull, Little Gull and
Arctic/Common Tern showed a general shift
from pre-construction avoidance to post-construction
preference for the wind farm area."
Bird Numbers and Distributions in the Horns Rev Offshore Wind Farm Area
http://www.hornsrev.dk/Miljoeforhold/miljoerapporter/horns%20rev%20bird%20numbers.pdf
Here's a quote from the summary of one document.
"At Horns Rev Divers, Common Scoter and Guillemot/
Razorbill showed an increased avoidance
of the wind farm area after the erection of the
wind turbines, including also zones of 2 and 4
km around the wind farm. In contrast Herring
Gull, Little Gull and Arctic/Common Tern showed
an increased preference for the wind farm area,
while Great Black-backed Gull, Little Gull and
Arctic/Common Tern showed a general shift
from pre-construction avoidance to post-construction
preference for the wind farm area."
Bird Numbers and Distributions in the Horns Rev Offshore Wind Farm Area
http://www.hornsrev.dk/Miljoeforhold/miljoerapporter/horns%20rev%20bird%20numbers.pdf
Self Reliance [Member] writes:
Time 6:30 pm, Date, 8/2/06
LMP price for SE MA $104.96/MWh (10.5 cents/kWh)
Wind Speed on Nantucket Sound 14 knots
Production over last hour if Cape Wind were built (251 MWh)
That's enough to power 251,000 window air conditioners during that hour. Or the total electricity demand of 41.8 typical households for a full year.
LMP price for SE MA $104.96/MWh (10.5 cents/kWh)
Wind Speed on Nantucket Sound 14 knots
Production over last hour if Cape Wind were built (251 MWh)
That's enough to power 251,000 window air conditioners during that hour. Or the total electricity demand of 41.8 typical households for a full year.
Self Reliance [Member] writes:
For more information about the stressed power grid yesterday, check out the Boston Globe article here:
http://www.boston.com/news/weather/articles/2006/08/03/sweating_it_out_at_nstar/
One of their emergency actions was to ask Otis to turn on thier own generators (diesel) and shave 2-3 MW of demand from the Cape & Islands. Cape Wind would have been producing between 171-251 MW during the same time!
This is also of course on a day during which we had "unhealthy" air to breathe during the time when Otis was asked to turn on their giant diesel generators. The videos archives of the bad air quality in our region can be found here: http://www.airnow.gov/index.cfm?action=airnow.archivescalendar
On Aug 1 and 2 you can clearly see how the Cape & Islands have the worst air quality in the state.
It's too bad Cape Wind wasn't producing clean energy during this time, perhaps we would have only had an "unhealthy for sensitive groups" rating instead of just plain "unhealthy".
http://www.boston.com/news/weather/articles/2006/08/03/sweating_it_out_at_nstar/
One of their emergency actions was to ask Otis to turn on thier own generators (diesel) and shave 2-3 MW of demand from the Cape & Islands. Cape Wind would have been producing between 171-251 MW during the same time!
This is also of course on a day during which we had "unhealthy" air to breathe during the time when Otis was asked to turn on their giant diesel generators. The videos archives of the bad air quality in our region can be found here: http://www.airnow.gov/index.cfm?action=airnow.archivescalendar
On Aug 1 and 2 you can clearly see how the Cape & Islands have the worst air quality in the state.
It's too bad Cape Wind wasn't producing clean energy during this time, perhaps we would have only had an "unhealthy for sensitive groups" rating instead of just plain "unhealthy".
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Hey Chuck... How was it downwind of Otis yesterday after they cranked them gensets on?
What's a little more pollution when your already have the worst in the state and perhaps the Northeast?
Maybe shuld git me one uh does diesel ones too uh think...
Will remind me of being a kid in New Beigh behind one of the public transportation type busses...
Breath deep... Suck in all you can to help eliminate some of that mercury laden particulate matter belching down on us from Brayton Point and Miriant...
The air will be a little cleaner...
If you do your share for clean air.
What's a little more pollution when your already have the worst in the state and perhaps the Northeast?
Maybe shuld git me one uh does diesel ones too uh think...
Will remind me of being a kid in New Beigh behind one of the public transportation type busses...
Breath deep... Suck in all you can to help eliminate some of that mercury laden particulate matter belching down on us from Brayton Point and Miriant...
The air will be a little cleaner...
If you do your share for clean air.
Self Reliance [Member] writes:
What a rediculous argument!
"I don't want you to make any clean energy for our region unless you agree to also not make any more of the dirty power that I rely on for everything I use right now."
That's like saying no one should buy a Toyota Prius hybrid - and in fact Toyota shouldn't even think about producing them in the first place - because they also make SUV's.
This argument will get us no where!
There are many of us that are very happy that Mr. Gordon is proposing to build the largest clean energy facility in the country right here in our backyards.
It won't be producing energy all of the time, but when it is, it will be reducing pollution from the power plants that we currently are dependant on. I'm really glad that there is an energy development company that is actually proposing clean energy projects for our region for a change.
"I don't want you to make any clean energy for our region unless you agree to also not make any more of the dirty power that I rely on for everything I use right now."
That's like saying no one should buy a Toyota Prius hybrid - and in fact Toyota shouldn't even think about producing them in the first place - because they also make SUV's.
This argument will get us no where!
There are many of us that are very happy that Mr. Gordon is proposing to build the largest clean energy facility in the country right here in our backyards.
It won't be producing energy all of the time, but when it is, it will be reducing pollution from the power plants that we currently are dependant on. I'm really glad that there is an energy development company that is actually proposing clean energy projects for our region for a change.
Self Reliance [Member] writes:
I do not support EMI's proposal to build a diesel generator in Chelsea, just like I don't support Toyota building large SUV's. That doesn't mean that I can't at the same time actually support their endavors to make a clean energy project or cleaner more efficient cars. To only criticize their bad decisions and not support thier good ones is not a positive way to move forward in my opinion.
Perhaps I would be able to support EMI's peaker plant if they said it was going to burn 100% biodiesel (like I do in my own personal vehicle).
I am an anti-corporate activist and work for a non-profit cooperative, but I know that for corporations to change they must be supported in their positive endevors, not just criticized for their negative ones.
I have purchased an efficent car and I purchase American made, cleaner burning, biodiesel fuel for it. This means that I gave money to an automobile manufacturer and keep supporting a local oil distributor, but they both see where my money is going and what I support.
By the way Capri, what do you drive?
Perhaps I would be able to support EMI's peaker plant if they said it was going to burn 100% biodiesel (like I do in my own personal vehicle).
I am an anti-corporate activist and work for a non-profit cooperative, but I know that for corporations to change they must be supported in their positive endevors, not just criticized for their negative ones.
I have purchased an efficent car and I purchase American made, cleaner burning, biodiesel fuel for it. This means that I gave money to an automobile manufacturer and keep supporting a local oil distributor, but they both see where my money is going and what I support.
By the way Capri, what do you drive?
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Capri, As usual you leave out the most relevant parts when you attempt to slam Cape Wind, the Chealsea plant or Jim Gordon...
First off... The Chelsea facility will burn the highest grade lowest sulfer content available unlike the Miriant plant that uses the equivelant of 'bunker' grade... the DIRTIEST available.
Additionally, the Chedalsea plant will have state of the art pollution equipment... Something Miriant has refused to do.
And... I would think that in ALL the research you do you may have noticed that it is the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT and the STATE GOVERNMENT that have come to the realization just how serious the energy crisis currently is...
It is Government... That is saying to EMI (by the way... An energy company) "Please build a plant, do it right away... And oh, (again) by the way: "We will pay you dearly with tax credits and subsidies if you do... Please do!"
Are you saying that EMI should say: "Naa... We just wanna build wind farms"?
Then again, with most the logic I see posted here... There are a few that would jump at the chance...
To do nothing.
First off... The Chelsea facility will burn the highest grade lowest sulfer content available unlike the Miriant plant that uses the equivelant of 'bunker' grade... the DIRTIEST available.
Additionally, the Chedalsea plant will have state of the art pollution equipment... Something Miriant has refused to do.
And... I would think that in ALL the research you do you may have noticed that it is the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT and the STATE GOVERNMENT that have come to the realization just how serious the energy crisis currently is...
It is Government... That is saying to EMI (by the way... An energy company) "Please build a plant, do it right away... And oh, (again) by the way: "We will pay you dearly with tax credits and subsidies if you do... Please do!"
Are you saying that EMI should say: "Naa... We just wanna build wind farms"?
Then again, with most the logic I see posted here... There are a few that would jump at the chance...
To do nothing.
Self Reliance [Member] writes:
Capri, I think it is clear from the context of my "quote" above that I made it up as if it were coming from someone else, that it is not something that I would say, and that I actually strongly disagree with the statement.
Pardon me if you didn't understand it that way. Perhaps my last statment will help clairfy it more.
Pardon me if you didn't understand it that way. Perhaps my last statment will help clairfy it more.
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
What about "the poor people suffering" on the Cape and the Islands Capri?...
From two of the DIRTIEST plants in the country!
EMI plans to build one of the CLEANEST... And of course NATURAL GAS would be cleaner...
BUT... Again, your research should bear the fact that IT IS NOT AVAILABLE.
Now in you infinate wisdom and armed with the copious amount of information you have at your fingertips...
It is more than apparrent we do in fact need more electrical capacity in our region...
Where would YOU... Suggest a peaker or another INDUSTRIAL SIZED plant be built???
Lets review once again:
- Fall River
- New Bedford
- Sandwich
- Plymouth
- Boston
Now dear Capri...
What do you want to use as a fuel source?...
- Coal... The most toxic
- Oil... Pretty stinky as well
- Gas... Nice but N/A
- Nuclear... You can have it near you.
Hmmmm... Wind?
Why, it's a no Bird-brainer!
I really don't expect a thoughtful, rational or viable answer.
From two of the DIRTIEST plants in the country!
EMI plans to build one of the CLEANEST... And of course NATURAL GAS would be cleaner...
BUT... Again, your research should bear the fact that IT IS NOT AVAILABLE.
Now in you infinate wisdom and armed with the copious amount of information you have at your fingertips...
It is more than apparrent we do in fact need more electrical capacity in our region...
Where would YOU... Suggest a peaker or another INDUSTRIAL SIZED plant be built???
Lets review once again:
- Fall River
- New Bedford
- Sandwich
- Plymouth
- Boston
Now dear Capri...
What do you want to use as a fuel source?...
- Coal... The most toxic
- Oil... Pretty stinky as well
- Gas... Nice but N/A
- Nuclear... You can have it near you.
Hmmmm... Wind?
Why, it's a no Bird-brainer!
I really don't expect a thoughtful, rational or viable answer.
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
By the way Capri... You and the Dal'liance can pump and puff all you want about DEEP WATER... Coming soon to an area near you.
The Baltic Sea site is a TEST using a relativly small turbine...
Beyond the design and development of platforms and infrastructure that will support the INDUSTRIAL SIZED turbines needed for economical transmission of electricity...
There is still the problem of transmitting that energy in undersea cables capable of not only the conditions but that are able to carry the current without signifigant losses...
Both are in EARLY DEVELOPMENTAL stages... Experimental at best.
We have the ability to move forward and get clean energy now from Cape Winds project...
It's time we do.
The Baltic Sea site is a TEST using a relativly small turbine...
Beyond the design and development of platforms and infrastructure that will support the INDUSTRIAL SIZED turbines needed for economical transmission of electricity...
There is still the problem of transmitting that energy in undersea cables capable of not only the conditions but that are able to carry the current without signifigant losses...
Both are in EARLY DEVELOPMENTAL stages... Experimental at best.
We have the ability to move forward and get clean energy now from Cape Winds project...
It's time we do.
Self Reliance [Member] writes:
I'll support any other clean energy project that EMI, or other power plant developer, propose for our region. Of course after it has been thouroughly reviewed for its environmental impact and gained the support of respected environmental groups.
Once again, I'd like to support good efforts, not just criticize bad ones.
Hopefully when EMI is successful with Cape Wind, they will be able to use that experience to develop another one. Why should the Cape & Islands be the only area with a significant source of clean energy in our backyards?
Maybe when they are done with this one deeper water turbines will be more feasible (see this good article in today's NY times: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/03/business/worldbusiness/03tides.html?_r=1&oref=slogin). Or maybe wave energy will begin to become practical and they can site a project off the National Seashore.
Once again, I'd like to support good efforts, not just criticize bad ones.
Hopefully when EMI is successful with Cape Wind, they will be able to use that experience to develop another one. Why should the Cape & Islands be the only area with a significant source of clean energy in our backyards?
Maybe when they are done with this one deeper water turbines will be more feasible (see this good article in today's NY times: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/03/business/worldbusiness/03tides.html?_r=1&oref=slogin). Or maybe wave energy will begin to become practical and they can site a project off the National Seashore.
Self Reliance [Member] writes:
Thanks Capri.
"Such a thing" would be a plug-in diesel hybrid. You would be able to drive around on pure electricity for most of your trips (hopefully powered by locally generated wind energy - or solar panels on your roof) and fuel up on biodiesel (or pure vegetable oil) for those longer trips.
That's what I see as the next best thing. Eventually we might get to hydrogen powered fuel cells, but we'd need lots and lots of wind turbines to make all that hydrogen from a clean source (otherwise it will come from coal and natural gas). But that's 20+ years away. Plug in Hybrids are possible now if someone would actually do it (sort of like how near shore, shallow water wind is available now, but we'll have better options in the future ; )
"Such a thing" would be a plug-in diesel hybrid. You would be able to drive around on pure electricity for most of your trips (hopefully powered by locally generated wind energy - or solar panels on your roof) and fuel up on biodiesel (or pure vegetable oil) for those longer trips.
That's what I see as the next best thing. Eventually we might get to hydrogen powered fuel cells, but we'd need lots and lots of wind turbines to make all that hydrogen from a clean source (otherwise it will come from coal and natural gas). But that's 20+ years away. Plug in Hybrids are possible now if someone would actually do it (sort of like how near shore, shallow water wind is available now, but we'll have better options in the future ; )
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Barbara Durkin "MISQUOTES"???...
~Unbelievable~
http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily/08-06/08-03-06/05opinion.htm
Capri can't respond...
Bottom line:
Because she can't logically answer the questions nor address the issues without the same fearmongering and hysteria and lies being promoted and promulgated and propagandized by the Dal'liance and Durkin aficionados.
All one of the same baked bean.
~Unbelievable~
http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily/08-06/08-03-06/05opinion.htm
Capri can't respond...
Bottom line:
Because she can't logically answer the questions nor address the issues without the same fearmongering and hysteria and lies being promoted and promulgated and propagandized by the Dal'liance and Durkin aficionados.
All one of the same baked bean.
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Talk about deflecting the issue Capri...
Why not stick with answering the question of what we should do about our energy crisis?
Please don't say "Conservation"...
It will only START to happen when our lights etc are affected by rolling blackouts and massive power outages...
Then, once the power comes back on and things cool down...
Let's face it... It is time to build a facility like Cape Wind irrespective of the wishes and deeppockets of a few primarily concerned about their VIEW.
Why not stick with answering the question of what we should do about our energy crisis?
Please don't say "Conservation"...
It will only START to happen when our lights etc are affected by rolling blackouts and massive power outages...
Then, once the power comes back on and things cool down...
Let's face it... It is time to build a facility like Cape Wind irrespective of the wishes and deeppockets of a few primarily concerned about their VIEW.
Self Reliance [Member] writes:
And until then we'll all keep using more coal from mountain removal in the Applachians, oil from the Middle East, gas from the Gulf of Mexico, and nuclear from who knows where to power our enormous energy demands. Just as long as the impacts aren't seen or felt here than it's OK I guess.
There's a reason why most major environmental organizations in this country support Cape Wind. They know it will have less of an impact what we are currently doing.
I'm ready to do something different. I want to buy electricity from Cape Wind and lock in my energy costs for 15+ years. I want to see them out on the water making clean electricity.
I enjoy the outdoors and have walked the entire Applachian Trail from GA to ME. I don't want to continue to tear down those mountains to provide my electricity. I am a peace activist and I don't want our soldiers to continue to fight wars for the oil going to the Canal Power plant or my car. I am an environmental and health activist and I want to clean up pollution that is currently ruining our air and water.
I want Cape Wind and I want it now.
There's a reason why most major environmental organizations in this country support Cape Wind. They know it will have less of an impact what we are currently doing.
I'm ready to do something different. I want to buy electricity from Cape Wind and lock in my energy costs for 15+ years. I want to see them out on the water making clean electricity.
I enjoy the outdoors and have walked the entire Applachian Trail from GA to ME. I don't want to continue to tear down those mountains to provide my electricity. I am a peace activist and I don't want our soldiers to continue to fight wars for the oil going to the Canal Power plant or my car. I am an environmental and health activist and I want to clean up pollution that is currently ruining our air and water.
I want Cape Wind and I want it now.
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Very interesting Capri... Why not ask Mass Audubon the question? I would certainly expect that they would respond promptly to a query such as you ask.
Seems they have a hair across somewhere to go so far as to publicly suggest otherwise.
Personally, I would be a little upset knowing she has taken the highest possible range to post probably close to 100 times just here... To me it is classic fear mongering.
If you are looking to blame anyone for not being more pro-active as far as energy conservation you should address your concerns in the direction of Cape Light Compact...
That is one of their primary charges in their charter I believe...
To educate the public in a variety of ways and how they can conserve and directly benefit from it.
I COULD BE WRONG... However, if you were to check out mission statements of CPN & the Dal'liance you would find conservation absent...
Then again if it is... SHAME!
Regardless, no amount of conservation could be implemented in enough time to forstall the inevitable pending crisis.
Again, what is YOUR practical solution?
Seems they have a hair across somewhere to go so far as to publicly suggest otherwise.
Personally, I would be a little upset knowing she has taken the highest possible range to post probably close to 100 times just here... To me it is classic fear mongering.
If you are looking to blame anyone for not being more pro-active as far as energy conservation you should address your concerns in the direction of Cape Light Compact...
That is one of their primary charges in their charter I believe...
To educate the public in a variety of ways and how they can conserve and directly benefit from it.
I COULD BE WRONG... However, if you were to check out mission statements of CPN & the Dal'liance you would find conservation absent...
Then again if it is... SHAME!
Regardless, no amount of conservation could be implemented in enough time to forstall the inevitable pending crisis.
Again, what is YOUR practical solution?
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Capri... I can understand your reluctance to communicate a person who at times has tendencies to... (fill in the blank)
However, respectfully I am wondering if you are able to answer the questions I posed to you previously.
"It is more than apparrent we do in fact need more electrical capacity in our region...
WHERE would YOU... Suggest a peaker or another INDUSTRIAL SIZED plant be built?"
- Fall River
- New Bedford
- Sandwich
- Plymouth
- Boston
- Nantucket Sound
- Your choice?
Next question equally as important:
What do you want to use as a fuel source?...
- Coal... The most toxic
- Oil... Very toxic
- Gas... Nice but N/A
- Nuclear... Whoa now! Not in MY backyard.
Hmmmm...
~Pollution free... 'WINDPOWER'?
Again, remember... DEEP WATER is NOT viable at this time nor will it be for at least 10 years... Truly.
As noted on this site as recently as today(?)...
The sites under consideration were extensivly studied for a variety of econmomic, enviormental and scientific reasons.
Given that CW has to be in ACK Sound... Where do you suggest?
However, respectfully I am wondering if you are able to answer the questions I posed to you previously.
"It is more than apparrent we do in fact need more electrical capacity in our region...
WHERE would YOU... Suggest a peaker or another INDUSTRIAL SIZED plant be built?"
- Fall River
- New Bedford
- Sandwich
- Plymouth
- Boston
- Nantucket Sound
- Your choice?
Next question equally as important:
What do you want to use as a fuel source?...
- Coal... The most toxic
- Oil... Very toxic
- Gas... Nice but N/A
- Nuclear... Whoa now! Not in MY backyard.
Hmmmm...
~Pollution free... 'WINDPOWER'?
Again, remember... DEEP WATER is NOT viable at this time nor will it be for at least 10 years... Truly.
As noted on this site as recently as today(?)...
The sites under consideration were extensivly studied for a variety of econmomic, enviormental and scientific reasons.
Given that CW has to be in ACK Sound... Where do you suggest?
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Please be realistic Capri...
Conservation is not something we Americans are going to do... For long or enough to make an adequate difference...
I truly think you know this as much as I.
If we had say a WWIII type situation (then again, who says we will not) and it was crisis time... That's one thing...
However, we are far from conserving our gasoline (all time high usage) and we continue to pay the almost $4.00/gallon price... Almost no outrage at the oil companies is hard to believe...
So, please be honest with me and tell what you think makes the most sense besides conservation.
Conservation is not something we Americans are going to do... For long or enough to make an adequate difference...
I truly think you know this as much as I.
If we had say a WWIII type situation (then again, who says we will not) and it was crisis time... That's one thing...
However, we are far from conserving our gasoline (all time high usage) and we continue to pay the almost $4.00/gallon price... Almost no outrage at the oil companies is hard to believe...
So, please be honest with me and tell what you think makes the most sense besides conservation.
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Come now Capri...
Be realistic... You know as much as I that there is absolutly no way "conservation NOW will solve our IMMEDIATE problems..."
You are no dummy... Maybe stubborn but far from dumb.
I am not totally frustrated yet so...
Let's try it this way..
IF... Say we tried it your way...
And, it comes to pass "Conservation" just isn't, can't, or won't cut the mustard...
Given the choices I laid out for you...
What is the logical choice?
I know you are sweating and having a difficult time swallowing now but, take a deep breath and go with your conscience ;~)
You can do it... I know you can!
Be realistic... You know as much as I that there is absolutly no way "conservation NOW will solve our IMMEDIATE problems..."
You are no dummy... Maybe stubborn but far from dumb.
I am not totally frustrated yet so...
Let's try it this way..
IF... Say we tried it your way...
And, it comes to pass "Conservation" just isn't, can't, or won't cut the mustard...
Given the choices I laid out for you...
What is the logical choice?
I know you are sweating and having a difficult time swallowing now but, take a deep breath and go with your conscience ;~)
You can do it... I know you can!
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Ok, good... Thank you for answering at leas part of the question realistically...
Now, again... Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?...
If so, then... It is not unreasonable to expect that a nuclear plant has to go ~somewhere~...
Somewhere where there is an abundance of cooling water very close by...
Somewhere where there is a pretty good sized tract of land suitable for such development...
Somewhere where the surrounding community would feel reasonably safe and secure...
And with the knowledge that Nuclear Energy has, afterall been around for many years and outside of one 'incident' in PA...
And of course, there was that Chernoybl(sp?)... 'Thing'...
But hey... The Ruskies - who can trust the guys that fry their own... In nuclear subs?
So, if in fact there are enough people in a given area who would not take too much of an issue with a nuclear reactor in their backyard...
And soon... A few thousand tons of nuclear waste that no one will take from them...
Just wondering...
I live in Centerville...
You?
Now, again... Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?...
If so, then... It is not unreasonable to expect that a nuclear plant has to go ~somewhere~...
Somewhere where there is an abundance of cooling water very close by...
Somewhere where there is a pretty good sized tract of land suitable for such development...
Somewhere where the surrounding community would feel reasonably safe and secure...
And with the knowledge that Nuclear Energy has, afterall been around for many years and outside of one 'incident' in PA...
And of course, there was that Chernoybl(sp?)... 'Thing'...
But hey... The Ruskies - who can trust the guys that fry their own... In nuclear subs?
So, if in fact there are enough people in a given area who would not take too much of an issue with a nuclear reactor in their backyard...
And soon... A few thousand tons of nuclear waste that no one will take from them...
Just wondering...
I live in Centerville...
You?
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Now then Capri... At this point I suspect you may very well be out conducting polls and collecting analysis as to whether or not the Cape and the Islands are a good spot for one of your nuclear electric plants...
I commend you for taking a brave stand on such a 'hot' topic as this...
Personally, I would not have a problem with nuclear... As long as I was upwind of the plant....
Of course, there IS the problem with the waste...
I not really cool with the idea of it just laying around in a warm bath of (rejuvenating?) salts or whatever they use nowadays to keep those spent rod jobs from getting much too... HOT!
As you can see Capri... (I bet the fellas use that line on you all the time) I am 'warming' up to your suggestion...
I am not a bad guy at all... Just ask the M&M's sometime and I am sure they will agree ;~)
Anyway, to recap: If the plant was downwind... and if the waste could be dealt (it goes far away) with...
I would not have a problem looking at the containment vessel if it were painted perhaps like some of 'Nantucket Air' planes.
cont.
I commend you for taking a brave stand on such a 'hot' topic as this...
Personally, I would not have a problem with nuclear... As long as I was upwind of the plant....
Of course, there IS the problem with the waste...
I not really cool with the idea of it just laying around in a warm bath of (rejuvenating?) salts or whatever they use nowadays to keep those spent rod jobs from getting much too... HOT!
As you can see Capri... (I bet the fellas use that line on you all the time) I am 'warming' up to your suggestion...
I am not a bad guy at all... Just ask the M&M's sometime and I am sure they will agree ;~)
Anyway, to recap: If the plant was downwind... and if the waste could be dealt (it goes far away) with...
I would not have a problem looking at the containment vessel if it were painted perhaps like some of 'Nantucket Air' planes.
cont.
Chuck Kleekamp [Member] writes:
Capri... sorry to repeat myself... but...
The peaker proposed by EMI is a combustion turbine that will use ultra low sulfur fuel oil with a maximum of 15 ppm sulfur content. Compare that to the Mirant Canal Plant that burns high sulfur residual fuel oil (1% or 10,000 ppm).
Note: the Canal plant emits 59,646,000 pounds of Sulfur dioxide a year.
The Chelsea peaker will emit 1,920 pounds a year. Quite a difference!
Would you rather live in Chelsea with a peaker that runs on ultra low sulfur fuel at about 2% of the time, or on Cape Cod with the Mirant plant with its sulfurous pollution (666 times worse than Chelsea) blowing over you and your schools 58% of the time?
I’d rather live on Cape Cod where we will get 75% of our electricity from non-polluting wind and a few ultra low sulfur fuel oil or natural gas cycling or peaker units filling in the gaps, even if they were in my backyard too.
Regards,
Chuck Kleekamp, P.E., Ret.
The peaker proposed by EMI is a combustion turbine that will use ultra low sulfur fuel oil with a maximum of 15 ppm sulfur content. Compare that to the Mirant Canal Plant that burns high sulfur residual fuel oil (1% or 10,000 ppm).
Note: the Canal plant emits 59,646,000 pounds of Sulfur dioxide a year.
The Chelsea peaker will emit 1,920 pounds a year. Quite a difference!
Would you rather live in Chelsea with a peaker that runs on ultra low sulfur fuel at about 2% of the time, or on Cape Cod with the Mirant plant with its sulfurous pollution (666 times worse than Chelsea) blowing over you and your schools 58% of the time?
I’d rather live on Cape Cod where we will get 75% of our electricity from non-polluting wind and a few ultra low sulfur fuel oil or natural gas cycling or peaker units filling in the gaps, even if they were in my backyard too.
Regards,
Chuck Kleekamp, P.E., Ret.
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
I would guess that even the newer plants (see France nuclear power:http://www.uic.com.au/nip28.htm - Quite interesting) have cooling towers that do rise quite high... 2-300 feet?...
As well "something interesting" could be done to make them more appealing as well...
Needless to say, of course... I am quite taken by the 'sculptures in motion' I went to see with 30+ others in Denmark that do take your breath away by their inherent beauty... Go to MMA for a peak...
So sorry... I was having a relapse!
Anyway,... BTT as they say:
I guess what needs to be explored... Is in the arena of possible sites I listed...
What is most appropriate given at least some of the considerations I raise?
Is... The east side of Nantucket itself (Sconset... The Loran facility is to be soon decommissioned I hear...
That area will carry any suspicious "non-contaminated unexpected releases" to the atmosphere where we... Don't have to worry too much?
Chatham? Truro? National Seashore... All would carry anything remotely suspicious out to sea... Where is is someone elses problem?
As well "something interesting" could be done to make them more appealing as well...
Needless to say, of course... I am quite taken by the 'sculptures in motion' I went to see with 30+ others in Denmark that do take your breath away by their inherent beauty... Go to MMA for a peak...
So sorry... I was having a relapse!
Anyway,... BTT as they say:
I guess what needs to be explored... Is in the arena of possible sites I listed...
What is most appropriate given at least some of the considerations I raise?
Is... The east side of Nantucket itself (Sconset... The Loran facility is to be soon decommissioned I hear...
That area will carry any suspicious "non-contaminated unexpected releases" to the atmosphere where we... Don't have to worry too much?
Chatham? Truro? National Seashore... All would carry anything remotely suspicious out to sea... Where is is someone elses problem?
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Regardless Capri... I am pretty sure that if someone came up with a proposal to build one of those babys anywhere near the Cape and Islands...
Well, I would rather take the crap that is being tossed Jim Gordons way than probable death threats that would come along with nuclear... In our back yard.
Maybe Otis? Pipe the water from the polluted ground water and pump it back into the ground after it has been cleaned of those nasty pollutants from Jet fuel and bullets...
Am quite sure that by the time DEEP WATER is viable we will have the technology to take care of that problem...
Not so sure though I would want to be drinking any of that possible... Irradiated? water.
So, Capri... While nuclear is always a potential that may one day have to be part of the mix in our region...\
I ask you once again...
If it comes to pass that nuclear is the fuel of the future for the future of the energy needs on the Cape and the Islands...
Exactly where would you suggest it be placed?
And please don't say: How about we place it offshore in DEEP WATER ;~)
This should be good!
Well, I would rather take the crap that is being tossed Jim Gordons way than probable death threats that would come along with nuclear... In our back yard.
Maybe Otis? Pipe the water from the polluted ground water and pump it back into the ground after it has been cleaned of those nasty pollutants from Jet fuel and bullets...
Am quite sure that by the time DEEP WATER is viable we will have the technology to take care of that problem...
Not so sure though I would want to be drinking any of that possible... Irradiated? water.
So, Capri... While nuclear is always a potential that may one day have to be part of the mix in our region...\
I ask you once again...
If it comes to pass that nuclear is the fuel of the future for the future of the energy needs on the Cape and the Islands...
Exactly where would you suggest it be placed?
And please don't say: How about we place it offshore in DEEP WATER ;~)
This should be good!
Chuck Kleekamp [Member] writes:
Notes on Nuclear
Nuclear advocates have a point. It doesn’t contribute to air pollution... Unless there is an accident! Then you (we) have a problem.
And just where would you like to store nuclear wastes... Yucca Mountain... seems like a no-starter after billions have been spent. 100,000 years?
I like the Denmark policy.
In 1973 they found themselves buying oil for 90% of their electrical production.
You know what happened... yes, the oil embargo. They said “never again.”
They began to develop wind turbines.
Their parliament outlawed the use of nuclear power in 1985.
Then they banned the construction of new coal plants, existing to be decommissioned by 2030.
They became self-sufficient in energy in 1997.
In fact they now export 50% of their oil, 30% natural gas, and 19% of their electricity. Sustainability!
Do they conserve? Yes!
Gasoline costs $6 a gallon. They drive small efficient cars, use commuter rail, and bikes.
Excess hot water from their power plants is piped under the streets to heat homes and business.
And more...
Regards,
Chuck K.
Nuclear advocates have a point. It doesn’t contribute to air pollution... Unless there is an accident! Then you (we) have a problem.
And just where would you like to store nuclear wastes... Yucca Mountain... seems like a no-starter after billions have been spent. 100,000 years?
I like the Denmark policy.
In 1973 they found themselves buying oil for 90% of their electrical production.
You know what happened... yes, the oil embargo. They said “never again.”
They began to develop wind turbines.
Their parliament outlawed the use of nuclear power in 1985.
Then they banned the construction of new coal plants, existing to be decommissioned by 2030.
They became self-sufficient in energy in 1997.
In fact they now export 50% of their oil, 30% natural gas, and 19% of their electricity. Sustainability!
Do they conserve? Yes!
Gasoline costs $6 a gallon. They drive small efficient cars, use commuter rail, and bikes.
Excess hot water from their power plants is piped under the streets to heat homes and business.
And more...
Regards,
Chuck K.
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Out of curiosity Chuck...
Would you rather have a nuclear plant in your backyard than the oil fired baby dumping that crap all over yer car?
Maybe Capri is on to something...
Would it be possible to "Save Nantucket Sound"... By converting Miriant to the 'glow in the dark' energy?
Maybe Jim Gordon can buy that festering facility and put it to good use?
I can see it now:
"EMI now proposing nuclear conversion at Miriant facility"...
Boom chuckalucka Boom!...
Now that would blow a few people ova!
Would you rather have a nuclear plant in your backyard than the oil fired baby dumping that crap all over yer car?
Maybe Capri is on to something...
Would it be possible to "Save Nantucket Sound"... By converting Miriant to the 'glow in the dark' energy?
Maybe Jim Gordon can buy that festering facility and put it to good use?
I can see it now:
"EMI now proposing nuclear conversion at Miriant facility"...
Boom chuckalucka Boom!...
Now that would blow a few people ova!
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Ok Capri...
~YOU'RE UP AT BAT!...
Play like you are the BOOMER!... or who eva he is.
~YOU'RE UP AT BAT!...
Play like you are the BOOMER!... or who eva he is.
Chuck Kleekamp [Member] writes:
Footnotes on Nuclear.
In 1960 a young engineer joined a small computer startup company. His first job was to build a control computer to open and close the emissions stack valve at the nearby Enrico Fermi nuclear power plant under construction just south of Detroit. The requirements included monitoring the wind direction, speed, and dispersion characteristics of the wind to calculate when an emission plume would go out over Lake Erie (toward our friends in Canada). Obviously not north over Detroit. When conditions were “right” the valve would open releasing... you guessed it... very low level radioactive contaminated air to the atmosphere. Humm.... was that really a good idea? It was not supposed to be harmful to humans. And so it was built, installed and operated until the plant closed in 1972.
Did it do any harm? I’ll never know. That young engineer was me. I’ve hopefully learned a thing or two in the mean time. Now I’d rather support the construction of harmless non-polluting renewable wind energy not nuclear.
Regards,
Chuck K.
In 1960 a young engineer joined a small computer startup company. His first job was to build a control computer to open and close the emissions stack valve at the nearby Enrico Fermi nuclear power plant under construction just south of Detroit. The requirements included monitoring the wind direction, speed, and dispersion characteristics of the wind to calculate when an emission plume would go out over Lake Erie (toward our friends in Canada). Obviously not north over Detroit. When conditions were “right” the valve would open releasing... you guessed it... very low level radioactive contaminated air to the atmosphere. Humm.... was that really a good idea? It was not supposed to be harmful to humans. And so it was built, installed and operated until the plant closed in 1972.
Did it do any harm? I’ll never know. That young engineer was me. I’ve hopefully learned a thing or two in the mean time. Now I’d rather support the construction of harmless non-polluting renewable wind energy not nuclear.
Regards,
Chuck K.
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Chuck, that brings to mind a Janice Joplin tune... "Take a little piece of my heart now baybe"...
Got a lump in my throat reading that scenerio.
Of course, that would NEVER HAPPEN... Now-a-days... Right?
Tell me it doesn't anyway.
~Stephen
Got a lump in my throat reading that scenerio.
Of course, that would NEVER HAPPEN... Now-a-days... Right?
Tell me it doesn't anyway.
~Stephen
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Ok Capri... Will bear with you. But rest assured we all are expecting your due consideration to what we have placed on your plate...
You are late for dinner, but we will forgive if you are able to succinctly(sp?) address each and every point so noted by your fellow loyal blogmiesters...
Irreverent and otherwise.
Hope all is well.
P.s. BTW... We will be expecting a signed tardy / absent without prior notice ("EXcuuuusssse me!) standard form...
I'm not sure yet if your word is verifiable.
You are late for dinner, but we will forgive if you are able to succinctly(sp?) address each and every point so noted by your fellow loyal blogmiesters...
Irreverent and otherwise.
Hope all is well.
P.s. BTW... We will be expecting a signed tardy / absent without prior notice ("EXcuuuusssse me!) standard form...
I'm not sure yet if your word is verifiable.
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Chuck... Ever get the feeling you are just "Blowin' in the wind" on this site?
Just been wondering who is "real" and who are the "plants' from the Dal'liance.
Fun sometimes... Piss me off more often.
Would like to see more 'verifiable' ID's to know when Vinick and LOST (Lack Of Smile Today) one is aboard...
Personally, I would like it much better if I could watch each of us reading the others comments live time...
I miss the old "Roller-Derby" games....
Then again... Car 54 (Where are you?)was so funny!
- Smothers Brothers
- Laugh In
- Soap
There was much to laugh about then...
What has happened???
Has it actually come down to mental masturbation on line?
But, I don't even know these people!
Just been wondering who is "real" and who are the "plants' from the Dal'liance.
Fun sometimes... Piss me off more often.
Would like to see more 'verifiable' ID's to know when Vinick and LOST (Lack Of Smile Today) one is aboard...
Personally, I would like it much better if I could watch each of us reading the others comments live time...
I miss the old "Roller-Derby" games....
Then again... Car 54 (Where are you?)was so funny!
- Smothers Brothers
- Laugh In
- Soap
There was much to laugh about then...
What has happened???
Has it actually come down to mental masturbation on line?
But, I don't even know these people!
Monponsett [Member] writes:
I used my real name briefly on AOL, and people will actually look you up and call you if they dislike something you wrote.
I had to dump a screen name because I feared someone showing up at my door some day when my husband was gone, all mad because I said something nasty about Kobe Bryant or J.J. Redick.
I should add that I'm kind of cute.
I had to dump a screen name because I feared someone showing up at my door some day when my husband was gone, all mad because I said something nasty about Kobe Bryant or J.J. Redick.
I should add that I'm kind of cute.
Chuck Kleekamp [Member] writes:
Windsmart,
There will be a bunch of bright young engineers designing the next generation of nuclear power plants. I hope they ask a lot of questions about the “what ifs...” and do something about it.
I liked the Smothers Brothers and All in the Family.
I understand and respect the reason and need for “handles” i.e. anonymity for some people who may be subject to unwanted ramifications of what they say. They are certainly welcome to their own opinions when expressed sincerely.
Some of us could (should) tone down the vulgarities at least wee bit....
It’s time to go to sleep.
Got to work on a senate article tomorrow.
Regards,
Chuck K.
There will be a bunch of bright young engineers designing the next generation of nuclear power plants. I hope they ask a lot of questions about the “what ifs...” and do something about it.
I liked the Smothers Brothers and All in the Family.
I understand and respect the reason and need for “handles” i.e. anonymity for some people who may be subject to unwanted ramifications of what they say. They are certainly welcome to their own opinions when expressed sincerely.
Some of us could (should) tone down the vulgarities at least wee bit....
It’s time to go to sleep.
Got to work on a senate article tomorrow.
Regards,
Chuck K.
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Chuck... Was just goin' off on Monpo! She put me up to the Hummer thing... Really;~)
You know me better than that... Would nevea consida slapping around anyone!... esp. a Humma... Would get my butt run over some quick.
That Frenchi woman is the devil in disguise belive you me.
You know me better than that... Would nevea consida slapping around anyone!... esp. a Humma... Would get my butt run over some quick.
That Frenchi woman is the devil in disguise belive you me.
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Just because she says she's cute she thinks she can get away with MOBs (Murder on Blogs)scene.
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
You know the type: Justs sits back and smiles sweetly while a guy self-immolates.
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Ok, I'm back from the dark side...
Capri... I agree with you as far as the nuclear possibilities...
However, please re:read my mini-manifestos of late and try to answer some of the relevent questions as it pertains to siting NUCLEAR nearby etc...
And of course, resolving the immediate energy crisis...
Remember - Leave conservation OUT of the equasion... At least for the time being.
FYI... I would think it would take at least as it has taken Cape Wind to get to just the approval point for a nuclear facility to address our immediate power needs...
Perhaps Chuck or Pilgrim (If he's still around) can weigh in on that one as I have (leaving my self wide open I know)... No idea.
Again, I think you might find of great interest the link I offered about what the French are up to...
And I certainly don't mean that wash-a-shore... Monpo!
Capri... I agree with you as far as the nuclear possibilities...
However, please re:read my mini-manifestos of late and try to answer some of the relevent questions as it pertains to siting NUCLEAR nearby etc...
And of course, resolving the immediate energy crisis...
Remember - Leave conservation OUT of the equasion... At least for the time being.
FYI... I would think it would take at least as it has taken Cape Wind to get to just the approval point for a nuclear facility to address our immediate power needs...
Perhaps Chuck or Pilgrim (If he's still around) can weigh in on that one as I have (leaving my self wide open I know)... No idea.
Again, I think you might find of great interest the link I offered about what the French are up to...
And I certainly don't mean that wash-a-shore... Monpo!
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Ok, maybe on this site it is "advantage"... 'Pro'; but let's be fair Capri...
You must admit... By an overwhelming margin the Dal'liance (to their deep pocked credit) has been much more effective -on the street- affecting the "common mans" opinion...
In all the ways I suggest again and adnauseum... again.
So, at least in this medium we have some chance of getting the message across that (I REALLY MEAN THIS) much of...
And at times ALL of what the Dal'liance peddles is true to form...
At the least...
Misleading... And more often than not outright lies.
Perfect example: Durkins bird kill "data".
Anyway, for the moment... I will stop slamming them and would like to sincerly continue our discussion about the nuclear option.
You must admit... By an overwhelming margin the Dal'liance (to their deep pocked credit) has been much more effective -on the street- affecting the "common mans" opinion...
In all the ways I suggest again and adnauseum... again.
So, at least in this medium we have some chance of getting the message across that (I REALLY MEAN THIS) much of...
And at times ALL of what the Dal'liance peddles is true to form...
At the least...
Misleading... And more often than not outright lies.
Perfect example: Durkins bird kill "data".
Anyway, for the moment... I will stop slamming them and would like to sincerly continue our discussion about the nuclear option.
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Capri... Will gladly jump in the fray on other topics you bring up, but...
For the moment anyway can you address specifically the topic of nuclear... In particular the topics I mention last evening...
ie... Where & when & with what local support etc.
I would rather not droll on again by repeating my leading questions... But if you wish...
For the moment anyway can you address specifically the topic of nuclear... In particular the topics I mention last evening...
ie... Where & when & with what local support etc.
I would rather not droll on again by repeating my leading questions... But if you wish...
Monponsett [Member] writes:
Is it possible to wash-a-shore from Duxbury Beach? I'm more of a drift-downer.
I can guarantee that my upbringing was saltier than anyone here who isn't an ACK lifer. I've had to get a shark carcass out of my cellar before after a storm, which- standing alone- should get me up to the front of the bus.
Duxbury Beach is pretty much Anywhere, Cape Cod during the winter months. In the summer, it's about level with the best Cape beach town, except that it doesn't have 50000 New Yorkers in it.
Note: I also consider myself to be more salty than any Marthas who moved there from California or the Hamptons.
I can guarantee that my upbringing was saltier than anyone here who isn't an ACK lifer. I've had to get a shark carcass out of my cellar before after a storm, which- standing alone- should get me up to the front of the bus.
Duxbury Beach is pretty much Anywhere, Cape Cod during the winter months. In the summer, it's about level with the best Cape beach town, except that it doesn't have 50000 New Yorkers in it.
Note: I also consider myself to be more salty than any Marthas who moved there from California or the Hamptons.
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
After all... It was you that brought up the suggestion that nuclear was the way to go...
In all fairness... I want to leave wind alone for the time being and explore with you the nuclear option as it pertains to Southeastern Ma immediate energy needs.
In all fairness... I want to leave wind alone for the time being and explore with you the nuclear option as it pertains to Southeastern Ma immediate energy needs.
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Careful Monpo... They may be lurking about... You might have newsweek all over your case about the influx of the summer pollution you offhandidly(???) note.
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Capri... I will give you one more chance...
You know how I get now...
I have to break for tea and read the comic section of the local rag along with any responses to smiley face Parker's inane attempts to discredit my most favorite topic besides sex and a-holes.
Pay attention & get to work honey...
~Maybe between the two of us we can solve the energy crunch ;~)
You know how I get now...
I have to break for tea and read the comic section of the local rag along with any responses to smiley face Parker's inane attempts to discredit my most favorite topic besides sex and a-holes.
Pay attention & get to work honey...
~Maybe between the two of us we can solve the energy crunch ;~)
Monponsett [Member] writes:
When that (angry New Yawkers) happens, I just act French... they go away eventually.
Chuck Kleekamp [Member] writes:
Footnotes on more nuclear.
Pilgrim will probably get their license extended for another 20 years. Originally is was to have two units. They only built one (a 660 MW unit). They probably could get a license for the second if the owners think it would be profitable.
It helps that new nuclear plants will get the same production tax credit as wind turbines (1.8 cents/kWh) plus insurance paid for by the government (that means you and me). Tell me about subsidies again...
Unlike a wind farm that has a decommissioning bond required for permit, nuclear does not... in general the folks in the state of the nuclear plant generally wind up paying for its decommissioning. And that's not cheap!
Capri, joining the ranks of the nuclear club puts you in with a good company with nuclear advocates and that’s a free choice of course. This is a democracy. And arguing about the appearance of a wind turbine is like arguing about religion... intractable... one must just agree to disagree and be friends anyway.
Regards,
Chuck K.
Pilgrim will probably get their license extended for another 20 years. Originally is was to have two units. They only built one (a 660 MW unit). They probably could get a license for the second if the owners think it would be profitable.
It helps that new nuclear plants will get the same production tax credit as wind turbines (1.8 cents/kWh) plus insurance paid for by the government (that means you and me). Tell me about subsidies again...
Unlike a wind farm that has a decommissioning bond required for permit, nuclear does not... in general the folks in the state of the nuclear plant generally wind up paying for its decommissioning. And that's not cheap!
Capri, joining the ranks of the nuclear club puts you in with a good company with nuclear advocates and that’s a free choice of course. This is a democracy. And arguing about the appearance of a wind turbine is like arguing about religion... intractable... one must just agree to disagree and be friends anyway.
Regards,
Chuck K.
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Good laugh... A wonderful way to start the day Monpo... Thanks for being: You :~)
I will be patient for a bit Capri... Remember: You brought up the subject of nuclear...
The main (?) point I think (?) I am attempting to make... In case you missed it... Or (is it possible?) I have confused or...
"Obsfucated" the topic...
I think it important to give perhaps even MORE consideration when it comes to NUCLEAR as far as...
- Siteing... In whose backyard?
- Public acceptance... Perception v/s reality.
- Health concerns... occassional "venting" & "unintentional discharge?"
- Inherent danger... Chances of meltdown etc.
- Water issues... Hot water discharge into "OUR SOUND"?
- Effects on wildlife, fish, birds... Do they fly/swim around the cooling towers/hot-water discharge into the ~"National Treasure"?
- And of course... The waste. What to do with the (HOT... as in fry your... )waste?
Obviously, Capri... I am leading you down the path of what I think would be the least possible resistance from the GENERAL public's point of view...
As opposed to you know who's.
I will be patient for a bit Capri... Remember: You brought up the subject of nuclear...
The main (?) point I think (?) I am attempting to make... In case you missed it... Or (is it possible?) I have confused or...
"Obsfucated" the topic...
I think it important to give perhaps even MORE consideration when it comes to NUCLEAR as far as...
- Siteing... In whose backyard?
- Public acceptance... Perception v/s reality.
- Health concerns... occassional "venting" & "unintentional discharge?"
- Inherent danger... Chances of meltdown etc.
- Water issues... Hot water discharge into "OUR SOUND"?
- Effects on wildlife, fish, birds... Do they fly/swim around the cooling towers/hot-water discharge into the ~"National Treasure"?
- And of course... The waste. What to do with the (HOT... as in fry your... )waste?
Obviously, Capri... I am leading you down the path of what I think would be the least possible resistance from the GENERAL public's point of view...
As opposed to you know who's.
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Needless to say Capri...
It might make sense for you to consider making a pro's & con's chart deliniating each of the potential energy sources in the fray...
I would lay dollars (don't get any ideas Monpo) to donuts that...
No, no, no... You figure it out.
If you want some help... You know you can rely on the "good guys (& dolls) to help you out.
It might make sense for you to consider making a pro's & con's chart deliniating each of the potential energy sources in the fray...
I would lay dollars (don't get any ideas Monpo) to donuts that...
No, no, no... You figure it out.
If you want some help... You know you can rely on the "good guys (& dolls) to help you out.
Chuck Kleekamp [Member] writes:
Capri,
By the way, as for Denmark being a small country, hence wind works, let me share the fact that Denmark is about twice the size of Massachusetts with about the same population.
If they can become self reliant and sustainable on energy without nuclear (now) and coal (15 years from now), there is no technical reason we (in Massachusetts) could not do the same. It’s just the political mindset that prevents it.
Of course, Denmark is the model of efficiency and conservation as I have noted. With gas at $6/gallon and electricity about twice the cost of ours, I’ll bet the average per-person energy use is far, far less that in the US. And from my visits there they seem to live the good life.
I must get on with many other tasks now. See you all later. Perhaps we should just have a big party sometime. It would save a lot of time at the keyboard.
Or maybe you would like to join CPN with the spring visit to Ireland and England to visit their offshore windfarms. It's really a fun and informative experience.
Regards,
Chuck K.
By the way, as for Denmark being a small country, hence wind works, let me share the fact that Denmark is about twice the size of Massachusetts with about the same population.
If they can become self reliant and sustainable on energy without nuclear (now) and coal (15 years from now), there is no technical reason we (in Massachusetts) could not do the same. It’s just the political mindset that prevents it.
Of course, Denmark is the model of efficiency and conservation as I have noted. With gas at $6/gallon and electricity about twice the cost of ours, I’ll bet the average per-person energy use is far, far less that in the US. And from my visits there they seem to live the good life.
I must get on with many other tasks now. See you all later. Perhaps we should just have a big party sometime. It would save a lot of time at the keyboard.
Or maybe you would like to join CPN with the spring visit to Ireland and England to visit their offshore windfarms. It's really a fun and informative experience.
Regards,
Chuck K.
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Chuck, You make an excellent point as far as "decommissioning" and insurance being paid for by "US"...
I would think that the Dal'liance would be up in arms about this possible unfair 'taxation without representation' concept...
Surly (sic) with their financial resources they can look into this and make sure it doesn't continue...
Maybe slip something into the next Defense or National Security bill that comes up for a vote?
Now got me wondering...
Just who's land is Pilgrim sitting on...
AND... If the prospect of Capri's suggestion comes to fruition...
Suppose a developer... EMI???
Were to ask for a permit to construct a NUCLEAR plant in...
Say...
Nickerson State Park?
Would that be a "Land grab"?
I would think that the Dal'liance would be up in arms about this possible unfair 'taxation without representation' concept...
Surly (sic) with their financial resources they can look into this and make sure it doesn't continue...
Maybe slip something into the next Defense or National Security bill that comes up for a vote?
Now got me wondering...
Just who's land is Pilgrim sitting on...
AND... If the prospect of Capri's suggestion comes to fruition...
Suppose a developer... EMI???
Were to ask for a permit to construct a NUCLEAR plant in...
Say...
Nickerson State Park?
Would that be a "Land grab"?
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Ohhhh... Santorini & Bodrum (sp?)...
Bring your romance along Capri.
What's this about a party?...
I would love a good pig roast! ;~)
Bring your romance along Capri.
What's this about a party?...
I would love a good pig roast! ;~)
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Capri... Come now...
You have voiced YOUR OPINION...
On Wind as a (viable) energy source in ACK Sound...
You have suggested the NUCLEAR option...
It is not necessary to bring in experts to address the matters I have presented for YOUR consideration...
And OPINION.
Come on now... There is no designated hitter going to take the place of you and your opinion...
You are up at bat... Take a swing at the ball!
What do you think about the individual topics I bring up in my 9:33 post?
I am sincerly trying to have a discussion of merit on this important issue that deserves intellegent and thoughtful consideration...
For the time being anyway...
Or at least until it comes to pass...
You strike out and fail to give it YOUR best effort.
You can do it!
You have voiced YOUR OPINION...
On Wind as a (viable) energy source in ACK Sound...
You have suggested the NUCLEAR option...
It is not necessary to bring in experts to address the matters I have presented for YOUR consideration...
And OPINION.
Come on now... There is no designated hitter going to take the place of you and your opinion...
You are up at bat... Take a swing at the ball!
What do you think about the individual topics I bring up in my 9:33 post?
I am sincerly trying to have a discussion of merit on this important issue that deserves intellegent and thoughtful consideration...
For the time being anyway...
Or at least until it comes to pass...
You strike out and fail to give it YOUR best effort.
You can do it!
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Capri... You have wimped out on me and now you will pay dearly!
P.s. When are you gonna have the pig roast etc?
P.s. When are you gonna have the pig roast etc?
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Have played cat and mouse with you too long Capri...
Making me hungry.
Will attend to your needs after lunch.
Not being able to keep your word about partaking in a serious discussion...
Am I to surmize you will not follow thru as well on your offer to host a roast of all roasts?
Or are you just gonna...
Chicken out...
Again?
Making me hungry.
Will attend to your needs after lunch.
Not being able to keep your word about partaking in a serious discussion...
Am I to surmize you will not follow thru as well on your offer to host a roast of all roasts?
Or are you just gonna...
Chicken out...
Again?
No one likes a: SMART ASS [Visitor] writes:
Capri... Your sophistry never ceases to amaze me...
Knowing how you expertly knit the 'yarn'...
And skirt the issues/questions...
I honesly must say...
With all deus ex machina and veneration...
You would be considered a crewl person indeed...
Not to have 'well balanced' offerings in the midst of your soir'ee.
Especially, so if it is an "adults only" affair in the generally accepted vernacular.
Knowing how you expertly knit the 'yarn'...
And skirt the issues/questions...
I honesly must say...
With all deus ex machina and veneration...
You would be considered a crewl person indeed...
Not to have 'well balanced' offerings in the midst of your soir'ee.
Especially, so if it is an "adults only" affair in the generally accepted vernacular.
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Chuck Kleekamp, P.E. Ret., is a director of Clean Power Now and frequently comments on renewable energy and the proposed wind farm on Nantucket Sound.
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You do realize that you're suggesting pretty much the same thing as going outside and watching the electric meter on the side of your house turn, right?
Sadly, next to my computer screen is my wind-speed detection-meter-thingy, and it's giving me a big 0-6 mph reading as I write this.
What's the minimum speed needed to get those blades spinning? I asked Jack, but he gets sort of paranoid when I use question marks. It seems like the warmest weather (and heaviest power usage) occurs when we have the least wind.
On the CW side, our winter storms feature plenty of wind, and I'd gather that power usage increases during storms as well.