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:: Saturday, November 21st, 2009Politics Etc.
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That allegedly one-sided conversation
01/31/07 · 2:26 pm :: posted by Jack Coleman
In launching her presidential bid last week, US Senator Hillary Clinton vowed she would conduct more of a "conversation" than campaign, based on the apparent belief that the less she says the better.
"So let's talk, let's chat, let's start a dialogue about your ideas and mine. Because the conversation in Washington has been just a little one-sided lately, don't you think? And we can all see how well that's worked." (emphasis in the original)
"... just a little one-sided lately ..." Huh?
With all due respect, Senator, what on earth are you talking about? Far from our political discourse being "one-sided," it looks remarkably robust, at least to this observer.
If Clinton's assertion is true, how was it possible for Democrats to regain control of Congress?
Of all the dubious claims made by Democrats since they became unhinged when Bush became president, this one is high on the list -- their incessant caterwauling that they aren't getting heard.
As if those opposed to the war cannot assemble by the tens of thousands in Washington on any given weekend, or anywhere else, anytime they want, to boisterously air their views.
As if vociferous criticism of Bush in Congress has not been commonplace for years, along with denunciations of the commander-in-chief during a time of war in letters to the editor, blogs, talk radio, the workplace and private conversation.
Language always gives you away, George Carlin once observed, and Clinton's claim is a classic example. This dutiful hall monitor of a senator sniffs in disdain at the state of political discourse, failing to recognize or appreciate -- oh the irony! -- its diversity of expression.
To Clinton, the conversation will remain "one-sided" until all taking part voice their opinions -- preferably with lots of passionate to mask lack of substance -- but with only negligible, nuanced differences between these views and those held by Clinton.
That, Senator Clinton believes, based on long experience in political echo chambers, would be a real conversation.
(photo credit, cnn.com)
53 comments
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Solon [Member] writes:
O, Monpo, I agree with you on every thing except one: What balls?
Democrant [Member] writes:
I'm not a Hillary fan at all, I find her to be as disingenuous as say..... George Bush. That said, Monp presents the amusing concept that there is this "they" that plan who runs for president. What exactly is the point, that a woman or a person of color should not run, that they are, to use the term listed, "chumps"? Regardless of party, it is good to have candidates more reflective of the country as a whole and judge their merits based on what they bring to the table, rather than their background. If the Dems were only running Dodd, Biden, Vilsack.... I'd be appalled.
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
LOL, Solon!
Suffice it to say I'm not a Hillary fan either, but Monpo is off the mark in dismissing how formidable a Clinton-Obama ticket could be, or Obama and a player to be named later. The election is still 18 months away, but as things stand now, the underlying dynamics favor the Democrats, whose front-runners happen to be a woman and a black.
I think it would be much more historic for a black to become president than a woman, assuming that both will happen eventually. Clinton has already been co-president, so there'll be a deja vu quality to her getting elected.
Suffice it to say I'm not a Hillary fan either, but Monpo is off the mark in dismissing how formidable a Clinton-Obama ticket could be, or Obama and a player to be named later. The election is still 18 months away, but as things stand now, the underlying dynamics favor the Democrats, whose front-runners happen to be a woman and a black.
I think it would be much more historic for a black to become president than a woman, assuming that both will happen eventually. Clinton has already been co-president, so there'll be a deja vu quality to her getting elected.
Monponsett [Member] writes:
"They" sort of refers to the Dems as a whole, not some upper strata.
Monponsett [Member] writes:
Jack... I hope I am off the mark with that statement I made, but I bet I'm not.
In the same vein... Why not a black woman president? Condo, maybe.... they should get her to embrace Islam or Judaism before she runs.
It would be funny if, after milleniums of oppression, the Prez race suddenly- and without either side planning it that way, or with one side doing it to counter the other- Americans had no choice in November but to vote for a black or a woman. Hillary/Obama vs. Condo/Poweell would leave us no choice.
Of course, if my theory regarding a party slitting their own throat by running a black or a woman is true..... maybe this is the year some Independent wild card jumps into the fray out of nowhere and runs off with a the trophy.
I'm rooting for Allen Iverson myself... but I also am planning on killing someone this week, and I'd need a guy in the White House who would understand a little straight Gangstaism.
In the same vein... Why not a black woman president? Condo, maybe.... they should get her to embrace Islam or Judaism before she runs.
It would be funny if, after milleniums of oppression, the Prez race suddenly- and without either side planning it that way, or with one side doing it to counter the other- Americans had no choice in November but to vote for a black or a woman. Hillary/Obama vs. Condo/Poweell would leave us no choice.
Of course, if my theory regarding a party slitting their own throat by running a black or a woman is true..... maybe this is the year some Independent wild card jumps into the fray out of nowhere and runs off with a the trophy.
I'm rooting for Allen Iverson myself... but I also am planning on killing someone this week, and I'd need a guy in the White House who would understand a little straight Gangstaism.
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
How would a party -- any party -- be "slitting its own throat" by nominating a woman for president when more than half the electorate is female?
As for a black woman for president -- Condi, specifically -- I'd vote for her in a heartbeat over Hillary.
As for a black woman for president -- Condi, specifically -- I'd vote for her in a heartbeat over Hillary.
Buzz [Member] writes:
When asked last week on ABC Good Morning America what foreign policy experience he had, Obama said, "I majored in International Studies in college".
I ask you, black, white or purple, is that what we've come to in this country? He's articulate, good looking and black so let's make him the frontrunner for the Presidency??
I ask you, black, white or purple, is that what we've come to in this country? He's articulate, good looking and black so let's make him the frontrunner for the Presidency??
capemom [Member] writes:
quoting Jack: "How would a party -- any party -- be "slitting its own throat" by nominating a woman for president when more than half the electorate is female?"
Jack, you are making the flawed assumption that women vote for someone just because she is a woman. Or that blacks vote for someone just because s/he is black. But in general, both vote for whomever they think is the best candidate.
By your logic, both the the Republicans and the Dems should have run a woman in every single election ever.
The Dems need to be super pragmatic and run someone who is electable. Forget what we Massachusetts people think. Hillary is reviled in the South and the Midwest, why, I'm not entirely sure. Next.
Obama is inexperienced and his middle name is Hussein. And, he's black. Next.
We need a good ole boy. No one from New England. John Edwards. (a bit of a wuss, but charming as hell). Possibly Wesley Clark, a macho but compassionate-seeming military guy.
The rest of the country does not like liberal northeasterners, or those who appear to be. Face it.
Jack, you are making the flawed assumption that women vote for someone just because she is a woman. Or that blacks vote for someone just because s/he is black. But in general, both vote for whomever they think is the best candidate.
By your logic, both the the Republicans and the Dems should have run a woman in every single election ever.
The Dems need to be super pragmatic and run someone who is electable. Forget what we Massachusetts people think. Hillary is reviled in the South and the Midwest, why, I'm not entirely sure. Next.
Obama is inexperienced and his middle name is Hussein. And, he's black. Next.
We need a good ole boy. No one from New England. John Edwards. (a bit of a wuss, but charming as hell). Possibly Wesley Clark, a macho but compassionate-seeming military guy.
The rest of the country does not like liberal northeasterners, or those who appear to be. Face it.
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
I'm making no such assumption, capemom, I'm challenging Monponsett's assumption that a majority of voters would reject a presidential candidate based on gender or skin hue. Some of us still adhere to the increasingly old-fashioned belief that content of character matters far more than both.
bubslola [Member] writes:
Jack, you've made some intellgent comments, thoughts and ideas. I do think that some people make choices based on character. Does it strike anyone, that we are making a big leap to elect a woman or person of color, when there has only been one Catholic president, ironically enough named Jack.
Monponsett [Member] writes:
I realize where my assumption would seem mean, or even seen as an attackon my pwncountry... but history backs me. No one's even tried to run a black, and the onewomanI remember running got stompedlike a WELCOME mat.
To be fair to Jack, I think we (as a nation) could elect a black or a woman...I can just see one (especially Hilly) turning off a large segment of voters, especially in the South. They'd also bring in a lot of black/female voters if they ran,and that might offset the racist exodus.
Look no further than right here, where we ran a black against a woman. Wealso are a very, very liberal state.
We live in interesting times.
To be fair to Jack, I think we (as a nation) could elect a black or a woman...I can just see one (especially Hilly) turning off a large segment of voters, especially in the South. They'd also bring in a lot of black/female voters if they ran,and that might offset the racist exodus.
Look no further than right here, where we ran a black against a woman. Wealso are a very, very liberal state.
We live in interesting times.
capemom [Member] writes:
I think that about 50% of the voters in this country would reject a voter based on race or gender, even though they would not admit it.
But that does not mean that people would vote *for* someone based on gender or skin hue. In other words, to be a woman or a minority is more of a vote-loser than a vote-getter in a national election.
Joe Six-Pack didn't vote for George Bush twice(and not everyone who voted for Bush is Joe Six-pack) because of who Bush was, but because of who he wasn't (A woman, an Hispanic, an African-American, a Jew, a Yankee.)
If you think I'm cynical or elitist, please let me know the last time you traveled to Alabama or Nebraska (or anywhere near) and conversed with people shopping or working in the local Wal-mart. Florida does not count.
But that does not mean that people would vote *for* someone based on gender or skin hue. In other words, to be a woman or a minority is more of a vote-loser than a vote-getter in a national election.
Joe Six-Pack didn't vote for George Bush twice(and not everyone who voted for Bush is Joe Six-pack) because of who Bush was, but because of who he wasn't (A woman, an Hispanic, an African-American, a Jew, a Yankee.)
If you think I'm cynical or elitist, please let me know the last time you traveled to Alabama or Nebraska (or anywhere near) and conversed with people shopping or working in the local Wal-mart. Florida does not count.
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Jesse Jackson ran twice in the '80s, Monponsett, and was among those considered for VP candidate by Dukakis in '88. The one time a female was on a national ticket in 1984 (actually the second time, if I'm not mistaken; Victoria Woodhull was a nominee in 1872), only a Democrat with the last name of Roosevelt would have beaten Reagan. Mondale that year became the last Dem presidential nominee to show much ardor for raising taxes, another Reagan achievement. Ever since then, Dems have acted like they hate taxes even when they don't.
Never been to Alabama or Nebraska, capemom, but I shop at Wal-Mart all the time. I think you overstate the extent to which this remains a racist and sexist country. And as for how women and blacks would vote with a woman or black on a national ticket, all else being equal for qualifications, I find it hard to believe that more women and blacks will vote against a candidate on this basis than for one. In an electorate this closely divided, that can decide an election.
Give Joe Six-Pack some credit. He's the one coming to help when you're in a jam.
Never been to Alabama or Nebraska, capemom, but I shop at Wal-Mart all the time. I think you overstate the extent to which this remains a racist and sexist country. And as for how women and blacks would vote with a woman or black on a national ticket, all else being equal for qualifications, I find it hard to believe that more women and blacks will vote against a candidate on this basis than for one. In an electorate this closely divided, that can decide an election.
Give Joe Six-Pack some credit. He's the one coming to help when you're in a jam.
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
In response to bub's lola - first off, thank you for the nice compliment and secondly, I agree, it would still be a leap for a woman or black to get elected president simply because it has never happened before, at least not in this country. Then again, I never thought I'd live to see peace in Northern Ireland and the IRA just voted to recognize the authority of police in Northern Ireland.
If the election were held today and Clinton was the Democratic nominee, is there anyone who believes she would lose to Bush?
If the election were held today and Clinton was the Democratic nominee, is there anyone who believes she would lose to Bush?
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Thanks, PP. My point in mentioning Woodhull was that a woman had run for national office long before Ferraro (and Chisholm for that matter). And unlike the candidates you mentioned, Jackson was a contender who actually had a chance of getting on a national ticket, and Ferraro did just that.
As for whether I'm aware Bush isn't running again, why would you think I thought he was ...?
As for whether I'm aware Bush isn't running again, why would you think I thought he was ...?
Monponsett [Member] writes:
Can anyone give me the name of a black or a woman (besides landslide victim Ferraro) who has carried the nomination of one of the major parties?
Don't try to run some disenfranchised woman from US Grant's era by me... this is supposed to be a serious conversation.
Liz Dole was a GOP woman, but did she gain the support of a party that could realistically win her an election? I must have missed the Dems running Chisholm against Nixon... but I was negative 4 years old at the time... but from what i can recall... wasn't her campaign dead by January or so? If it were ever really alive at all?
In fact,a much stonger candidacy that year was put forth by block-the-blacks-from-the-school George Wallace... who was seriously considered as a deal-with-the-devil VP by McGovern.
So, as recently as 1972, you can do better running a racist Southern Governor than an honorable black woman.
Dukakis didn't run with Jackson, as he most likely wanted to win.
Funny that you mentioned Roosevelt.... he was the last man to run as an Independent. Despite amazing popularity, TR lost.
Don't try to run some disenfranchised woman from US Grant's era by me... this is supposed to be a serious conversation.
Liz Dole was a GOP woman, but did she gain the support of a party that could realistically win her an election? I must have missed the Dems running Chisholm against Nixon... but I was negative 4 years old at the time... but from what i can recall... wasn't her campaign dead by January or so? If it were ever really alive at all?
In fact,a much stonger candidacy that year was put forth by block-the-blacks-from-the-school George Wallace... who was seriously considered as a deal-with-the-devil VP by McGovern.
So, as recently as 1972, you can do better running a racist Southern Governor than an honorable black woman.
Dukakis didn't run with Jackson, as he most likely wanted to win.
Funny that you mentioned Roosevelt.... he was the last man to run as an Independent. Despite amazing popularity, TR lost.
Monponsett [Member] writes:
...run as an Independent with a chance of winning.*
Monponsett [Member] writes:
I agree with Jack that most women and blacks WON'T vote against a woman or a black... but I think Jack's trying to avoid mentioning that blacks vote less than whites, and encompass less of the overall population. Women also vote less than men.
We're not that enlightened yet. FDR had to hide the fact that he was crippled when he ran... as if Polio was something he could be faulted for.
Bush's own father played the Willie Horton race card 20 years ago as well as it's been played since 1860 or so, and his son has even less integrity.
Until I see President Rodham-Clinton... I'm not convinced.
We're not that enlightened yet. FDR had to hide the fact that he was crippled when he ran... as if Polio was something he could be faulted for.
Bush's own father played the Willie Horton race card 20 years ago as well as it's been played since 1860 or so, and his son has even less integrity.
Until I see President Rodham-Clinton... I'm not convinced.
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
That blacks encompass less of the population is beyond doubt, Monpo, but whether they vote less frequently than whites on the whole, I have no idea. That might well be conventional wisdom unsupported by the facts.
You neglected to mention that FDR first ran for president more than 70 years ago, little more than a decade after women could legally vote, and while most of the country was still segregated. Suffice it to say we've made a bit of progress since. Is there more to be done? You bet, but let's not slight the sacrifices made by those who got us where we are today. To borrow a line from demographers, the trend lines are positive.
Incidentally, it wasn't Bush the elder who first made the Mass. prison furlough program an issue in the 1988 campaign, it was a politician named Al Gore. Perhaps you'd like to see the resumption of weekend furloughs for first-degree murderers. Seeing how you went ballistic over a gas station heist, that would seem a bit inconsistent.
You neglected to mention that FDR first ran for president more than 70 years ago, little more than a decade after women could legally vote, and while most of the country was still segregated. Suffice it to say we've made a bit of progress since. Is there more to be done? You bet, but let's not slight the sacrifices made by those who got us where we are today. To borrow a line from demographers, the trend lines are positive.
Incidentally, it wasn't Bush the elder who first made the Mass. prison furlough program an issue in the 1988 campaign, it was a politician named Al Gore. Perhaps you'd like to see the resumption of weekend furloughs for first-degree murderers. Seeing how you went ballistic over a gas station heist, that would seem a bit inconsistent.
Monponsett [Member] writes:
I'm not a fan of weekend furloughs... I'm also not a big fan of using Scary Looking Blacks to smear an opponent.
Al Gore went after furlough programs,not Horton. Al was above using the race card that George pounced on with such vigor.
If you want the guys who decided to use a menacing black to smear Duke, you want to go to Lee Atwater and his gang of hired assassins.
Lee Atwater predicted that "by the time this election is over, Willie Horton will be a household name." Consultant Roger Ailes was remarked "the only question is whether we depict Willie Horton with a knife in his hand or without it."
Atwater apologized to Dukakis as he was dying,... no doubt worried that Heaven wouldn't take him, and that Hell was run by big, mean Crip.
As for the gas station heist... what would Jack do if it was his family?
I leave the ass-kicking to the Colonel. My strength is in my ability to offer and publicize a reward for whoever gets these guys off the street.
It's legal, and the Bourne P.D. has two other bounties out.. for arsonists. I'm after armed robbers. Ballistic?
Al Gore went after furlough programs,not Horton. Al was above using the race card that George pounced on with such vigor.
If you want the guys who decided to use a menacing black to smear Duke, you want to go to Lee Atwater and his gang of hired assassins.
Lee Atwater predicted that "by the time this election is over, Willie Horton will be a household name." Consultant Roger Ailes was remarked "the only question is whether we depict Willie Horton with a knife in his hand or without it."
Atwater apologized to Dukakis as he was dying,... no doubt worried that Heaven wouldn't take him, and that Hell was run by big, mean Crip.
As for the gas station heist... what would Jack do if it was his family?
I leave the ass-kicking to the Colonel. My strength is in my ability to offer and publicize a reward for whoever gets these guys off the street.
It's legal, and the Bourne P.D. has two other bounties out.. for arsonists. I'm after armed robbers. Ballistic?
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Do you really think Atwater and co. wouldn't have pounced on that issue had Horton been white, Monpo? Horton's race was incidental to the issue at hand and Bush haters like you have been citing it ever since to distract attention from the lunacy of the furlough program itself. Remember the Republican "revolving door" ad that year? None of the men were black.
Tell me, is the same Crip in hell eagerly awaiting the arrival of Jesse Jackson, who once said he felt relieved to turn around on a city sidewalk and see a white man following him and not a black man? (and I believe he said this after the '88 campaign). Sounds more racist than anything Atwater ever said and did.
In response to your question, what would I do if it were my family? I'd have the police handle it; it's their job. All this does help explain your odd and abiding fascination with gas prices, however.
Tell me, is the same Crip in hell eagerly awaiting the arrival of Jesse Jackson, who once said he felt relieved to turn around on a city sidewalk and see a white man following him and not a black man? (and I believe he said this after the '88 campaign). Sounds more racist than anything Atwater ever said and did.
In response to your question, what would I do if it were my family? I'd have the police handle it; it's their job. All this does help explain your odd and abiding fascination with gas prices, however.
Monponsett [Member] writes:
Actually,they had 3 blacks and two Hispanics in the ad- I'm looking at it as we speak, right in the pages of a book called "Dirty Politics."
Not only was race far from incidental, Atwater actually looked for a blackman to focus on. "I want every suburban mother'snightmare," he told his staff.
Jesse is too smooth for Hell. God and Satan would end updeciding to reincarnate him a s a particularly charismatic fish or something.
I'm merely helping the police by offering a reward... and these police haven't turned up ditka as of 8:44 this evening. They need all the help they can get,and I don't mean that maliciously.
Gas prices are a pretty serious issue, and only a shameless Bush apologist would try to avoid discussing them... and, in fact, bemoan someone for mentioning it.
Not only was race far from incidental, Atwater actually looked for a blackman to focus on. "I want every suburban mother'snightmare," he told his staff.
Jesse is too smooth for Hell. God and Satan would end updeciding to reincarnate him a s a particularly charismatic fish or something.
I'm merely helping the police by offering a reward... and these police haven't turned up ditka as of 8:44 this evening. They need all the help they can get,and I don't mean that maliciously.
Gas prices are a pretty serious issue, and only a shameless Bush apologist would try to avoid discussing them... and, in fact, bemoan someone for mentioning it.
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Gee, for someone allegedly trying to avoid discussing gas prices, I seem to have somehow avoided avoided doing that, as anyone taking the trouble to read back through this thread of comments -- or my last two years of blog posts -- can plainly see.
Thank you for correcting my error about the GOP ad, Monpo. The nerve of those Republicans -- running an ad that reflects actual prison demographics! Apparently they didn't get the memo from the thought police that only crimes committed by non-minorities -- Ken Lay, Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, etc. - are to be exploited in campaign ads. Next thing you know, conservatives will be calling for the public to be informed when a sexual predator moves into their neighborhood or drives their kids to school. Can't these tight-ass conservatives get over their obsession with sex?!
Thank you for correcting my error about the GOP ad, Monpo. The nerve of those Republicans -- running an ad that reflects actual prison demographics! Apparently they didn't get the memo from the thought police that only crimes committed by non-minorities -- Ken Lay, Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, etc. - are to be exploited in campaign ads. Next thing you know, conservatives will be calling for the public to be informed when a sexual predator moves into their neighborhood or drives their kids to school. Can't these tight-ass conservatives get over their obsession with sex?!
Monponsett [Member] writes:
As for the next thing the conservatives do.... just try to get them to stop lying to the people so that they can slaughter our children in a useless oil war.
As for Horton...They ran the ad that way specifically to avoid upsetting ethnic groups...who were going to be pretty upset with the whole "Let's scare white mothers with the prospect of a big black rapist."
As for Horton...They ran the ad that way specifically to avoid upsetting ethnic groups...who were going to be pretty upset with the whole "Let's scare white mothers with the prospect of a big black rapist."
Buzz [Member] writes:
"useless oil war"? Explain to me again why 4 planes were hijacked and used as missles to attack America?
As for Horton....Let's scare white mothers, black mothers with a Govenor who has no consideration for law abiding citizens and lets dangerous criminals walk the street.
As for Horton....Let's scare white mothers, black mothers with a Govenor who has no consideration for law abiding citizens and lets dangerous criminals walk the street.
Monponsett [Member] writes:
As Jack said... John Wayne Gacy could scare blackmothersand white mothers... but the Bush teamwascountingon a terrifying black to strike fear in the largest demographic... and it worked.
As for "useless oil war" and the plane/missiles... did either of these wars capture the guy behind the 9-11 attacks>? We're just as open to a terrorist attack as we were before the war. Maybe it'll be a subway bomb next time.... or the city-nuke that Jack talks about.
If you wanttotry toclaim some success from the Iraq War, enjoy yourself. Just remember that the war plan most likely wasn't "create chaos, increase anti-US sentiment in Asia, and suck our Treasury dry while killing our children." Taking away the one powerful army between Iran and Saudi Arabia was just an added bonus.
You're right... it wasn't a useless war... it was WORSE than useless.
As for "useless oil war" and the plane/missiles... did either of these wars capture the guy behind the 9-11 attacks>? We're just as open to a terrorist attack as we were before the war. Maybe it'll be a subway bomb next time.... or the city-nuke that Jack talks about.
If you wanttotry toclaim some success from the Iraq War, enjoy yourself. Just remember that the war plan most likely wasn't "create chaos, increase anti-US sentiment in Asia, and suck our Treasury dry while killing our children." Taking away the one powerful army between Iran and Saudi Arabia was just an added bonus.
You're right... it wasn't a useless war... it was WORSE than useless.
bandana [Member] writes:
And so another trek into the realm of conjecture and inuendo. It could always be worse. What if Hillary divorced Bill and married George. Brain freeze!!!But none of the talk realy matters when it comes to the actual election. We all know that the final count is in the hands of those Florida election workers who run the electronic voting machines and in five precincts, that would be me. OOps gotta run, tornado watch in effect. HMM, gives me an idea...self-shoveling snow...bandana
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Monponsett, does the book you cited happen to mention that there were two Willie Horton ads - not one - and the ad run by Bush's campaign never showed a picture of Horton?
The second ad was produced by a group independent from the campaign that included Angela Miller - the Maryland woman raped by Horton - and Cliff Barnes, Miller's fiance, who was bound and gagged by Horton, slashed with a knife dozens of times and had the barrel of a gun jammed into his mouth. Then after dragging Miller into a bedroom by the throat and beating her, Horton raped Miller while Barnes, still bound and gagged in the basement, heard the assault as it took place.
Few people saw the second ad until the staunchly conservative and closet racist mainstream media pounced, thereby making Horton a household name (needless to say, Horton went on to express his support for Dukakis).
Does your dog-earred copy of "Dirty Politics" mention any of that?
The second ad was produced by a group independent from the campaign that included Angela Miller - the Maryland woman raped by Horton - and Cliff Barnes, Miller's fiance, who was bound and gagged by Horton, slashed with a knife dozens of times and had the barrel of a gun jammed into his mouth. Then after dragging Miller into a bedroom by the throat and beating her, Horton raped Miller while Barnes, still bound and gagged in the basement, heard the assault as it took place.
Few people saw the second ad until the staunchly conservative and closet racist mainstream media pounced, thereby making Horton a household name (needless to say, Horton went on to express his support for Dukakis).
Does your dog-earred copy of "Dirty Politics" mention any of that?
Monponsett [Member] writes:
It does mention that. Of course, it also mentions that Americans For Bush was comprised of all Lee Atwater's people.
Atwater himself chose to focus on Horton, insisting that his name be made a household world.
Bush was mentioning Horton by name in dozens of speeches, although he denounced the ad... the day before he started his own furlough ads. No WH needed.. household word.
Hate Dirty Politics all you want, Jack..but it made you a liar or a fool.
Jack: "Remember the Republican "revolving door" ad that year? None of the men were black."
Truth: Multiple blacks and Hispanics were featured. See for yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Horton
Jack.. listen, please.
You're making Bridgewater State College look bad, getting all this history wrong in a public forum. Either study harder, or claim that you went to Westfield State or something.
I'm out the door now... weekend in Maine. I'll be on tonight. That gives Jack plenty of time to actually research his arguments,instead of just lying for Bush and hoping the readers are too dumb to figure it out.
Atwater himself chose to focus on Horton, insisting that his name be made a household world.
Bush was mentioning Horton by name in dozens of speeches, although he denounced the ad... the day before he started his own furlough ads. No WH needed.. household word.
Hate Dirty Politics all you want, Jack..but it made you a liar or a fool.
Jack: "Remember the Republican "revolving door" ad that year? None of the men were black."
Truth: Multiple blacks and Hispanics were featured. See for yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Horton
Jack.. listen, please.
You're making Bridgewater State College look bad, getting all this history wrong in a public forum. Either study harder, or claim that you went to Westfield State or something.
I'm out the door now... weekend in Maine. I'll be on tonight. That gives Jack plenty of time to actually research his arguments,instead of just lying for Bush and hoping the readers are too dumb to figure it out.
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Was Angela Miller, the woman brutally raped by Horton, one of "Lee Atwater's people"?
Being mistaken doesn't make a person a liar. Calling someone a liar who acknowledges being mistaken arguably does. You'll notice I've refrained from describing you in the same way for what could be seen as a lie of omission.
Your wrath toward Bush and co. instead of the lunacy of the policy they condemned - with the hearty endorsement of the American public - speaks volumes about your fringe-left politics.
The victim murdered by Horton - a 17-year-old convenience store clerk. Not sure if the store was also a gas station, but the two are often found in the same location. Horton stabbed him 19 times and stuffed his body into a garbage can - after the kid already gave Horton the money in the register. After Horton had already been convicted of attempted murder in South Carolina.
Try summoning the fortitude to condemn those worth condemning in the furlough debate. It would, however, involve acknowledging being mistaken. And clearly that would be beneath you.
Being mistaken doesn't make a person a liar. Calling someone a liar who acknowledges being mistaken arguably does. You'll notice I've refrained from describing you in the same way for what could be seen as a lie of omission.
Your wrath toward Bush and co. instead of the lunacy of the policy they condemned - with the hearty endorsement of the American public - speaks volumes about your fringe-left politics.
The victim murdered by Horton - a 17-year-old convenience store clerk. Not sure if the store was also a gas station, but the two are often found in the same location. Horton stabbed him 19 times and stuffed his body into a garbage can - after the kid already gave Horton the money in the register. After Horton had already been convicted of attempted murder in South Carolina.
Try summoning the fortitude to condemn those worth condemning in the furlough debate. It would, however, involve acknowledging being mistaken. And clearly that would be beneath you.
Monponsett [Member] writes:
Notice that Jack is now using Wiillie Horton ads to make his point that Americans are above viewing politics through the prism of Race?
What an amazing inability to follow his own original point! Jack has backtracked so far from his original statement that he is now using the opposite of said statement to prove the said statement. I've never seen anything like it, even when I taught Special Ed.
If this were Bizzarro World, I'd be ceding this argument to Jack right now.
Clifford Barnes took part in a shameless $2 million speaking tour from an "independent" pro-Bush group to exploit Angela's rape, so it looks like she did fit into Atwater's plan to make Horton the VP of Duke's campaign.
Hence... she was not only one of his people, she (and her hub's willingness to exploit her rape for political and economic gain)... she was most likely PARAMOUNT among his people.
I'll admit error when you show me one I've made, Jack. You haven't been able to do so yet.
I can't believe I was gone 12 hours and this crap was the best you could come up with. Dammmmmn!
What an amazing inability to follow his own original point! Jack has backtracked so far from his original statement that he is now using the opposite of said statement to prove the said statement. I've never seen anything like it, even when I taught Special Ed.
If this were Bizzarro World, I'd be ceding this argument to Jack right now.
Clifford Barnes took part in a shameless $2 million speaking tour from an "independent" pro-Bush group to exploit Angela's rape, so it looks like she did fit into Atwater's plan to make Horton the VP of Duke's campaign.
Hence... she was not only one of his people, she (and her hub's willingness to exploit her rape for political and economic gain)... she was most likely PARAMOUNT among his people.
I'll admit error when you show me one I've made, Jack. You haven't been able to do so yet.
I can't believe I was gone 12 hours and this crap was the best you could come up with. Dammmmmn!
Monponsett [Member] writes:
More Bizzarro Jack:
Jack is now attacking me for my pro-stance on weekend furloughs... even though this is the only statement I've made regarding the furlough program:
(Monponsett writes: "I'm not a fan of weekend furloughs...")
Jack's tunnel vision and inability to follow a conversation has now led him to condemning me for agreeing with his position on furloughs. He's like a C level Karl Rove who gets confused after 400 words.
Attack politics, almost done well... too bad you don't have 10 million dumb southerners here who share your inability to read for comprehension.
My brother-in-law fought off two men with tire irons while he was unarmed, so one guy wasn't gonna put a knife in him. My BIL would have most likely constructed a Fudgsicle out of Willie Horton and that knife of his.
If BIL were killed, though... I wouldn't accept blood money to travel the country exploiting his murder so that some clown could take office and lie about not raising our taxes.
THAT'S integrity, Jack... try it out sometime.
Jack is now attacking me for my pro-stance on weekend furloughs... even though this is the only statement I've made regarding the furlough program:
(Monponsett writes: "I'm not a fan of weekend furloughs...")
Jack's tunnel vision and inability to follow a conversation has now led him to condemning me for agreeing with his position on furloughs. He's like a C level Karl Rove who gets confused after 400 words.
Attack politics, almost done well... too bad you don't have 10 million dumb southerners here who share your inability to read for comprehension.
My brother-in-law fought off two men with tire irons while he was unarmed, so one guy wasn't gonna put a knife in him. My BIL would have most likely constructed a Fudgsicle out of Willie Horton and that knife of his.
If BIL were killed, though... I wouldn't accept blood money to travel the country exploiting his murder so that some clown could take office and lie about not raising our taxes.
THAT'S integrity, Jack... try it out sometime.
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Time for your quarterly rabies screening, Monponsett, the spittle is accumulating.
Refreshing, however, to see you've decided to refrain from calling me a liar again in a public forum, which as you are undoubtedly aware falls within the legal definition of defamation. Apparently that keen Gallic sense of self-preservation has kicked in. Sacre bleu, mon petite ami!
Refreshing also for you to belatedly acknowledge that the furlough program was a really dumb idea -- after strenuously condemning those who brought it to our attention -- and that you remain a shrill advocate for racial harmony.
The sheer nerve of that Barnes, speaking out like that after his fiancee was brutally raped. It's not like she was robbed in a gas station or something else decidedly less traumatic. Then again, you never know how people will react to crime. Sometimes they can come across as unhinged.
Try not to bump into any trees while in Maine, or moose, or mountains ....
Refreshing, however, to see you've decided to refrain from calling me a liar again in a public forum, which as you are undoubtedly aware falls within the legal definition of defamation. Apparently that keen Gallic sense of self-preservation has kicked in. Sacre bleu, mon petite ami!
Refreshing also for you to belatedly acknowledge that the furlough program was a really dumb idea -- after strenuously condemning those who brought it to our attention -- and that you remain a shrill advocate for racial harmony.
The sheer nerve of that Barnes, speaking out like that after his fiancee was brutally raped. It's not like she was robbed in a gas station or something else decidedly less traumatic. Then again, you never know how people will react to crime. Sometimes they can come across as unhinged.
Try not to bump into any trees while in Maine, or moose, or mountains ....
Buzz [Member] writes:
"If BIL were killed, though... I wouldn't accept blood money to travel the country exploiting his murder"
Yeah, why travel when I can just stay home and use the internet instead! Reach more people....more cost effective and I'm helping the environment as well.
Yeah, why travel when I can just stay home and use the internet instead! Reach more people....more cost effective and I'm helping the environment as well.
Monponsett [Member] writes:
Defamation...lol
Any court would say "Why would you say that Mr. Coleman's staement made him a liar or a fool?"
I'd show them the statement you made that was false. I'd show the jury where I corrected Jack's misinformation.
Not Guilty.
Any court would say "Why would you say that Mr. Coleman's staement made him a liar or a fool?"
I'd show them the statement you made that was false. I'd show the jury where I corrected Jack's misinformation.
Not Guilty.
Monponsett [Member] writes:
I noted that I thought the furlough program was disagreeable to me the first time you mentioned it,Jack... Again...Stop equivocating.
As you're trying to avoid mentioning.... the furlough program is in here because it's an example of how a politician can still use race to win an election these days. It helped win the argument for me.
There's a difference between my offering a reward for taking an armed thug off the streets and Barnes TAKING a reward to travel the country expoliting your wife's rape to put some clown in office.
Jack or KMA... If your wife or daughters were raped, how much cash would I have to pay to get you to go around various Cape Cod bars recreating the incident so that a bar owner can sell a whole lot of Busch beer that night?
Much like Bush Jr. exploited fears of 9-11 to justify his bumbling war plans, Dad looked at a woman being raped and thought "I can make political capital out of this."
Bush Sr. was no better than Horton in my mind. In fact, he's worse... at least Horton was most likely straight with Angela about exploiting her as an object.
As you're trying to avoid mentioning.... the furlough program is in here because it's an example of how a politician can still use race to win an election these days. It helped win the argument for me.
There's a difference between my offering a reward for taking an armed thug off the streets and Barnes TAKING a reward to travel the country expoliting your wife's rape to put some clown in office.
Jack or KMA... If your wife or daughters were raped, how much cash would I have to pay to get you to go around various Cape Cod bars recreating the incident so that a bar owner can sell a whole lot of Busch beer that night?
Much like Bush Jr. exploited fears of 9-11 to justify his bumbling war plans, Dad looked at a woman being raped and thought "I can make political capital out of this."
Bush Sr. was no better than Horton in my mind. In fact, he's worse... at least Horton was most likely straight with Angela about exploiting her as an object.
Buzz [Member] writes:
Who would rather your daugther dated....Bush or Horton?
Monponsett [Member] writes:
That would depend if I exhaused my fortune throwing dollars at you... asking you to "tell us the part about where Horton sodomized your daughter again... but this time, simulate the act on the jukebox."
Until you answer the question I asked you about how much it would cost to have you recount your wife/daughter's rape, I'll be unable to answer your question about whether I'd rather have my daughter hanging around with Bush or Willie.
The reason I need to know is that, since my comparison between the two stands unchallenged, I assume you agree with me that no difference exists regarding both Horton and Bush as far as their willingness to exploit Miss Angela.
So.. right now, I'd say Bush. Once you set a cash value on your daughter's exploitation, you may as well go with the Exploiter who has more money.
Until you answer the question I asked you about how much it would cost to have you recount your wife/daughter's rape, I'll be unable to answer your question about whether I'd rather have my daughter hanging around with Bush or Willie.
The reason I need to know is that, since my comparison between the two stands unchallenged, I assume you agree with me that no difference exists regarding both Horton and Bush as far as their willingness to exploit Miss Angela.
So.. right now, I'd say Bush. Once you set a cash value on your daughter's exploitation, you may as well go with the Exploiter who has more money.
Chuck [Member] writes:
Depends on whether you want her to be bored to death or balled to death ;>)
Ted from Hyannis Port [Member] writes:
Monponsett, why aren't you wrtitng a Polical Blog?
You're wise than any of this guys, and a heck of a lot more amusing to read. They get mad and you hoist them on their own petards.
You're wise than any of this guys, and a heck of a lot more amusing to read. They get mad and you hoist them on their own petards.
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Thanks for clarifying that, Monponsett. The furlough program was, ah, "disagreeable" to you -- holy heartfelt condemnation, Batgirl!
How do you know your opponent has lost the argument? Baseless claims of lying and attack politics while engaging in same.
Bush Sr. worse than Horton? Whatever you say, commissar.
How do you know your opponent has lost the argument? Baseless claims of lying and attack politics while engaging in same.
Bush Sr. worse than Horton? Whatever you say, commissar.
Buzz [Member] writes:
Well, thanks to the revelation of the Dukakis furlough program and how it permitted convicted murders the opportunity to spend a weekend killing and raping more victims, my daughter and wife are pretty safe from it happening again.
Blacks, whites, hispanics and even a few asians are now exempt from weekend furloughs.....thank you Lee Atwater (RIP) your legacy lives on.
As a mater of fact, most furlough programs were abandoned across the country as a result. In addition, many states initiated truth in sentincing laws as well.
So as far as meaningful campaigns go, the Horton thing seemed to be real effective and provided real change in this country. Somtimes we need to see things in black & white to realize the magnitude of the problem.
So at this time Monpon, save your money.....the beers on me!
Blacks, whites, hispanics and even a few asians are now exempt from weekend furloughs.....thank you Lee Atwater (RIP) your legacy lives on.
As a mater of fact, most furlough programs were abandoned across the country as a result. In addition, many states initiated truth in sentincing laws as well.
So as far as meaningful campaigns go, the Horton thing seemed to be real effective and provided real change in this country. Somtimes we need to see things in black & white to realize the magnitude of the problem.
So at this time Monpon, save your money.....the beers on me!
videopaul [Member] writes:
I'm with Ted. My experience with these guys is that they enjoy mean-spirited, humorless discussion and will cling to untruths for the sake of argument, not discussion. I pretty much skip over their remarks as it is usually so predictable and unoriginal.
On the other hand I find Monpo an interesting and informative read with a good sense of humor.
On the other hand I find Monpo an interesting and informative read with a good sense of humor.
Monponsett [Member] writes:
"Beer's on me" ends most arguments for me... although I prefer a nice burgundy.
You could turn over an hourglass the second I started a political blog, and the Secret Service would be at my house before the sands emptied.
You could turn over an hourglass the second I started a political blog, and the Secret Service would be at my house before the sands emptied.
CCToday [Member] writes:
Now THAT, would be a kewl scoop for CCToday !!!
But please, Monponsett, do NOT call anyone a liar or accuse them of lying.
It is defamatory and libelous.
Personal attacks are against our policy and simple rules:
We never censor comments based on political or ideological of view. We only delete those comments that are abusive, off-topic, use excessive foul language, or include personal attacks, i.e., making negative personal comments about a blogger or fellow commenter, instead of just criticizing his/her posting, opinion, or comments.
But please, Monponsett, do NOT call anyone a liar or accuse them of lying.
It is defamatory and libelous.
Personal attacks are against our policy and simple rules:
We never censor comments based on political or ideological of view. We only delete those comments that are abusive, off-topic, use excessive foul language, or include personal attacks, i.e., making negative personal comments about a blogger or fellow commenter, instead of just criticizing his/her posting, opinion, or comments.
Monponsett [Member] writes:
Can I put a bounty on him?
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
How can you put a bounty on something that's priceless ...?
All kidding, and sarcasm, and hostility aside, Monponsett, I'd like to ask you a straightforward question -- what is a lie?
All kidding, and sarcasm, and hostility aside, Monponsett, I'd like to ask you a straightforward question -- what is a lie?
Monponsett [Member] writes:
According to Webster, lying is an attempt to "to create a false or misleading impression."
While your intent may not have been to lie, you did attempt to create a false or misleading impression.
Make sure you inform your lawyer that I said you were a "liar or a fool," based on your attempts to create this false or misleading impression regarding the race of the people in the second furlough ad.
Since your statement was false and misleading, the reader is the one who must determine if your intent was to mislead. If so- Liar. If not- Fool.
If it comes down to it... I'd be willing to stand in court and say "My apologies, everyone... I thought he was lying. It turns out he was just a Fool."
Good point on the bounty, though.... smiles.
While your intent may not have been to lie, you did attempt to create a false or misleading impression.
Make sure you inform your lawyer that I said you were a "liar or a fool," based on your attempts to create this false or misleading impression regarding the race of the people in the second furlough ad.
Since your statement was false and misleading, the reader is the one who must determine if your intent was to mislead. If so- Liar. If not- Fool.
If it comes down to it... I'd be willing to stand in court and say "My apologies, everyone... I thought he was lying. It turns out he was just a Fool."
Good point on the bounty, though.... smiles.
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Just out of curiosity, would you have known that without looking it up?
Monponsett [Member] writes:
The definition of "lie," or that you were wrong about the color of the guys in the furlough ads?
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
The definition of lie. Why the need to look it up?
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Apparently Monponsett is still mulling a range of pithy responses.
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You know how I am about Bush.... but the Dems deserve to lose for propping up all these chumps in a row.
I wouldn't vote for Hillary for a lot of the same reasons I won't vote for Romney if he runs. She's looking at post 9-11 NY as a stepping stone, and she's looking at the presidency like my kids look at toys.