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Valid criticism - from the opposition

Last week brought a letdown for Cape Wind supporters  after a string of victories and positive news -- word that Minerals Management Service is delaying release of its draft environmental impact report on the project for three to four months.

The inevitable question followed -- was the delay triggered by unseen Machiavellian maneuvering of Cape Wind opponents, or was it based on good-faith efforts by conscientious regulators? More likely the latter, and for good reason.

Back on March 19, the Cape Cod Commission held a public hearing on the project in Yarmouth. The first public official to speak, Mark Weissman, identified himself as a board member of the Massachusetts Marine Fisheries Commission.

As described in a March 22 letter to the editor of the Cape Cod Times written by Cape Wind spokesman Mark Rodgers, "Mr. Weissman stated that Cape Wind's final environmental impact report neglected to mention dredging Horseshoe Shoal, which Mr. Weissman incorrectly claimed would be needed to create access for a construction barge used in installing the wind turbines. Mr. Weissman went on to speculate about damage such dredging would cause.

"The reason Cape Wind's final environmental impact report makes no mention of dredging Horseshoe Shoal is that no dredging is needed for a construction barge to access the wind turbine locations," Rodgers further wrote, ending his letter by pointing out that when Weissman "introduced himself at this event as a public official, he neglected to also mention that he is a paid consultant to the Alliance to Protect Nantucket Sound."

My interest piqued by Weissman's failure to mention his connection to the Alliance, one that's been known for years by those following the wind farm saga, I called him about it (for the sake of full disclosure, I am a former paid media consultant to the pro-wind farm non-profit Clean Power Now and have written about the project as a proponent for two years).  Weissman acknowledged the omission and said he regretted it. "I should have mentioned that I did consulting for the Alliance, but I was not speaking on their behalf," he said. "I was a little flustered and pressed for time. I'm embarrassed by it."

After seeing Rodgers' letter in the Times, with its veiled suggestion of a conflict of interest, Weissman spoke with the chairman of the fisheries commission. "He doesn't see anything wrong," Weissman said. Weissman had contacted the state Ethics Commission about his consulting work for the Alliance a few years ago and was never informed he was in violation of the state ethics law.

Whether Cape Wind or Clean Power Now wishes to file a complaint with the state Ethics Commission alleging that Weissman cannot serve on the commission while working as an Alliance consultant is their perogative. Such action would probably be a waste of time, based on my understanding of the law. Weissman is an unpaid commission member, not a state employee, a critical distinction. Of greater interest to me is what Weissmann said at the hearing, which he described further when I called him. Weissman also sent me copies of the Alliance response to the FEIR (Final Environmental Impact Report) as it pertains to dredging, or, more accurately, how Cape Wind steers clear of it in the report.

Problem is, Cape Wind's own numbers in the FEIR provide amply reason for skepticism about its no-dredging assertion. The document states that "a minimum water depth of 12 feet (3.6 meters) MLLW (Mean Low Low Water) ... was established as a design criteria necessary to properly address construction techniques." Figure 2.2 in the FEIR (partially shown at right), a map depicting turbine locations and MLLW water depths around them, shows at least a dozen turbines in waters less than 12 feet deep at mean low low water (blogger's note: the red arrows  on the map were added by the Alliance to point out sites where turbines would be built in water less than 12 feet deep at MLLW; a second chart in the Alliance response to the FEIR cites four more such locations. MLLW, also known as Mean Lower Low Water, is the average of the two low water heights of each tidal day, according to the American Meteorological Society).

Again, this is based on Cape Wind's own filing with Minerals Management Service, not Alliance conjecture or spin. If Cape Wind says at least 12 feet of water is needed to build the turbines, and at least a dozen turbines would be constructed in water less than 12 feet deep at mean low low water, how can the work be done without dredging? The math and engineering here is not that complicated.

Two Cape Wind supporters I spoke with about this were both dismissive. I am of a different opinion -- whether dredging of Horseshoe Shoal is needed is hugely significant, and I suspect it's the main reason MMS extended its regulatory review. It's not just areas directly adjacent to the turbines that may need to be dredged -- the same may be true of water less than 12 feet deep for hundreds of feet in all directions around these specific turbines, to allow tugboats and huge construction barges room to maneuver.

Not only that, but ask yourself this -- if you are navigating across Horseshoe Shoal in a boat that draws more than 12 feet, and using a navigational chart more than few years old, how confident are you in the depths cited on the chart? Enough to risk running aground and spending the night on a chilly sandbar, along with your perturbed passengers?

Maps of shoals are like computer manuals -- it doesn't take long for rapid change to render them obsolete. Cape Wind wants to build its turbines in one of the most ecologically dynamic settings on the East Coast, a shoal that's continally buffeted by currents, wind and waves. The depths around the turbines cited in the FEIR are almost certainly different now than when they were determined, if only marginally. They will have changed that much more by the time construction could begin in 18 months to two years at the earlier, after factoring in the new delay and inevitable litigation to follow MMS's eventual decision.

Not only is Horseshoe Shoal a topographically fluid locale, it is likely to become only more so due to a major reason cited by Cape Wind supporters for the wind farm -- global warming, with its ominous threat of more destructive storms and their immense power to reshape coastlines and shoals.

Remember the old parking lot at Coast Guard Beach in Eastham? Destroyed by the Blizzard of '78, along with the setting for author Henry Beston's  "The Outermost House." More recent storms have carved openings in barrier beaches around the Cape.  If global warming is as bad as we keep hearing, it won't take long for Horseshoe Shoal to bear little resemblance to its current dimensions.

But after spending roughly $30 million before generating a single kilowatt-hour, why would Cape Wind risk jeopardizing the project with a questionable omission in its documentation to MMS? I can only conclude the omission is not accidental. If the amount of dredging needed is even half as much as critics like Weissman allege, it would still involve an immense amount of material removed from the seabed. Material that has to be dredged from Horseshoe Shoal -- and placed elsewhere. The eyes glaze at the thought of the additional red tape involved. By not addressing this in the FEIR, Cape Wind may have crossed its fingers and hoped for the best. Who knows, maybe it'll pass muster. Then again, maybe not.

Cape Wind has dodged more than its share of bullets -- lawsuits, well-funded lobbying in Washington, overheated rhetoric about avian carnage and navigational mayhem. But when it comes to dredging, that string of good fortune may come to an end. This issue, and proponents' dismissal of its importance, is an Achilles heel that Cape Wind ignores at its peril.

197 comments
Blog posts and comments are entirely the thoughts and ideas of the people who write them and in no way represent the views of CapeCodToday.com, eCape, Inc., or its employees or owners.

04/10/07 @ 7:01 pm
neil good [Member] writes:
Jack, you do deserve credit for giving this your attention, and doing it in an evenhanded way.

Cape Wind wants to locate turbine D-0 less than 4000 feet- and turbine C-2 less than 2000 feet- from the shallowest part of H. Shoal, or where charts show the shoal is only about 6 inches deep at mean low water. B-2, D-1, and D-2 are in the same general vicinity. If dredging is necessary that is where it will be done.

Cape Wind might say “…not a problem, we have it all figured out.” They might even say “…dredging is not needed," but here is another issue to consider. By an odd quirk of nature the deepest part of N. Sound- 93 feet deep- is just about 4000 feet from this “shallowest” spot on the shoal, and not much farther from the nearest turbine- B-2. Picture an extreme drop-off, or underwater cliff, at the edge of the shoal in that area.

Would it be a good idea to hammer 18-foot dia. steel monopoles, 80 feet deep or more, into the bottom so near the deepest part of N. Sound- and so near the shallowest part? I don't think so.
04/10/07 @ 7:47 pm
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
thanks, capri and Neil, greatly appreciated. Neil, in response to your question, no, I don't think that would be a good idea and wouldn't be surprised if MMS eventually cites that as one of their concerns.

The person who was way ahead of the curve on this was Capt. Jack Riley, aka Maverick. I remember dismissing his skepticism about it based on assurances from Cape Wind. I'll believe dredging won't be necessary if and when the project is built, and not accompanied by dredging. Short of that, I'll remain skeptical.
04/11/07 @ 12:15 pm
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
Conservation Law Foundation, Cape and Island’s Self-Reliance, Clean Power Now, Clean Water Action, Earth Policy Institute, Environment Massachusetts, Environmental League of Massachusetts, Greenpeace, Healthlink, MA Climate Action Network, Mass Energy, George M. Woodwell

To Secretary Ian Bowles EOEA March 22, 2007:

“We appreciate that the FEIR addresses the water quality impacts of the project, including impacts from the proposed jet plow method of embedding the submarine cables, as requested. Further, the project proponent has responded favorably to the Secretary’s request (in the DEIR Certificate) to backfill the area this is excavated at the transition point between the submarine cable and the Horizontal Direct Drilling (HDD) cable, so as to nearly replicate the sediment transport attributes of the area as they are prior to dredging.”

Everyone except for Mark Rodgers seems to know that dredging would be necessary.

130 miles of cable @ 25% shallow water, would translate to 32 miles of dredging.
04/11/07 @ 12:18 pm
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
Thank you, Jack Coleman, for your balanced coverage of this issue.
04/11/07 @ 9:09 pm
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
You're welcome, Barbara. I thought it was something that needed to be said. Apparently I've left other Cape Wind supporters speechless.
04/11/07 @ 9:48 pm
Monponsett [Member] writes:
You know that I'm not really caring either way... but it is fun to watch the power plays at work. High stakes, heavy spending, celebrity input, local color... it's a helluva story. I can't wait to how it ends.

There probably is a good book in it... if I were a wruter as well-versed in the battle as, say, Jack... I'd give some thought to how nice life would be if I could crank a best seller out of this whole mess.

Offhand... and especially where he's obviously looking at both sides of the issue now... is there anyone walking God's green earth better equipped to write the definitive wind farm story than our own JC?

No joke... give it some thought. I'll buy one, so you'll at least make THAT much.
04/12/07 @ 12:12 am
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
I guess Barbara forgot about the NSAR $50 Million dollar cable run to Nantucket which required 'dredging' similar to that required for Cape Wind.

How about the 200sq miles, 15 feet down, required to bring LNG tankers into fall river as perspective?
04/12/07 @ 12:45 am
neil good [Member] writes:
But Moses, the cable to Nantucket is 'required', and Cape Wind is not required at all.
04/12/07 @ 7:12 am
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
Moses:

Some will never forget the 26 mile cable run from Nantucket to Cape Cod.

"We were laying 26 miles of power cable from Nantucket to Cape Cod. The forecast was for winds to 40. it blew 96 Knots...a hurricane! I took this photo from my tug, The Manatee. The bow of the barge broke, the spud pocket cracked and the office space was taking on water. Many souls hung in the balance."

Chuck Gallup Owner/Operator
Gallup's Concrete Pumping
04/12/07 @ 8:37 am
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Wow, Mopo, you made my day, and given me something to think about. Not the first time you've done both.

In response to lmco35 - correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Hess, the applicant for the LNG facility in Fall River, saying that dredging will be necessary for that project? Cape Wind is saying dredging won't be necessary.
04/12/07 @ 8:44 am
neil good [Member] writes:
Cape Wind is not necessary

[Jack, I'd buy your book. WW's, never]
04/12/07 @ 9:51 am
CCToday [Member] writes:
Cape Cod TODAY regrets to inform our readers that Jack Coleman failed to contact the developer for their response before publishing this post.

Cape Wind categorically denies that any dredging will take place in constructing the wind farm.

They state that having reduced the proposed footprint from 170 to 130 turbines two years ago they have amble space to rearrange the placement should any specific sites prove difficult and that there is 12 feet of high water around each proposed turbine site.

More importantly, any dredging would require many additional permits which would be nearly impossible to acquire according to the developer.
04/12/07 @ 10:44 am
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Cape Cod Today has apparently forgotten that this is analysis posted on a blog, not straight-forward reporting. There is nothing keeping Cape Wind from responding - in their own words, unfiltered by me or anyone else - in comments that can be posted here.

In its previous comment, Cape Cod Today claims there is "12 feet of high water around each proposed turbine site." Operative words - "high water." Due to a well-documented phenomenon known as tides, there will also be "low water" around each turbine site.

According to Cape Wind's own FEIR, at least a dozen turbines would be situated in water less than 12 feet deep at mean low low water, and the maximum draft of the vessels they'd use for construction would be 12 feet.

The previous comment is also undermined by the assertion that shrinking the footprint from 170 to 130 turbines would provide "ample" space to rearrange the turbine array. It had exactly the opposite effect - Cape Wind was left with less room to work with, 24 square miles specifically, as opposed to the earlier 28 square miles.
04/12/07 @ 11:35 am
bobcat87 [Member] writes:
Jack,
I have to say I was a bit surprised to see the comments closed by CC Today and I am happy that you were able to have this thread/comment section re-opened -- it's your blog and I think you should be able to comment on the issue, which you have always done responsibly and respectfully. Your blog adds alot to the Cape Cod Today offerings and the wind energy debate as a whole.
04/12/07 @ 12:09 pm
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
thank you bobcat87 and capri, I appreciate your comments. As far as this being my blog, I'm not the only person who posts to it - I'm referring specifically to Renewable Energy Revolution - and it is a collaborative effort. Beyond that, any and all blogs here are owned, if you will, by the publisher, who foots the bill in providing them to the public, as do publishers of other media.

Ending the comment thread seemed an odd way to respond to Cape Wind not getting a chance to respond, seeing how Cape Wind hasn't responded to what I wrote.
04/12/07 @ 1:00 pm
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
"The reason Cape Wind's final environmental impact report makes no mention of dredging Horseshoe Shoal is that no dredging is needed for a construction barge to access the wind turbine locations," Rodgers further wrote." Cape Cod Times 3/22

Cape Wind's FEIR, logic, and the Conservation Law Foundation, etc., suggest otherwise.

Great question, Jack:

"But after spending roughly $30 million before generating a single kilowatt-hour, why would Cape Wind risk jeopardizing the project with a questionable omission in its documentation to MMS?"

Cape Cod Today editor responds:

"...any dredging would require many additional permits which would be nearly impossible to acquire according to the developer."

Is Cape Wind trying to circumvent "Compliance with Sections 401 and 402 of the Clean Water Act?

...referred to as an “IMPORTANT LAYER OF PROTECTIVE REVIEW” in the context of Cape Wind, by Conservation Law foundation BRIEF OF AMICUS CURIAE of 1/03.
04/12/07 @ 1:26 pm
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
Hmmm, Cape wind's record on factual statements, around 100%. The Alliance...close to zero. When CW says it won't be a problem, forgive me for believing them & not SOS.

If massive dredging would be needed, Cape Wind may have to do without those 12 turbines.

Maybe they are counting on ocean level rise from global warming so it won't be an issue.

I believe that the exact locations are not set in stone, and there is latitude to nudge locations to avoid dredging within the defined borders.

I believe massive dredging is an environmental mistake, but not nearly the mistake that constant fish dragging of the area is. This is one of those glaring points the Alliance seems mute even w/their concern for the environment... or should I say they have concern for any environmental issue they can misrepresent into ammo against Cape Wind.

You don't want to alienate you fishing allies, even if thier dragging causes more damage than a WF ever would. Glad I'm not in the same ethical bind.
04/12/07 @ 1:48 pm
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
It's refreshing to see at least one other Cape Wind advocate point out that dredging may be needed - thank you, Carl.

But as for saying that "if massive dredging would be needed, Cape Wind may have to do without those 12 turbines," this puts Cape Wind in another potential bind - whether the project is economically viable with fewer than 130 turbines. Proponents like me were adamant about this last spring when Rep. Don Young of Alaska tried to impose a 1.5-mile buffer zone between offshore turbines and shipping lanes. Had the proposal become law, it would have prevented Cape Wind from building some of its turbines, but not most of them.

I specifically asked Jim Gordon if there was a "drop dead" number of turbines he could not go under, and he said yes - 130.
04/12/07 @ 1:59 pm
Shecky [Member] writes:
A fool and my money are soon parted.

"The reason Cape Wind's final environmental impact report makes no mention of dredging Horseshoe Shoal is that no dredging is needed for a construction barge to access the wind turbine locations," Mark Rodgers wrote." Cape Cod Times 3/22/07

If the opponents what to challenge that statement prior to permitting or construction or even once it has begun, they have a ball & go for it, and they will only further discredit & embarrass themselve...once again!
04/12/07 @ 2:19 pm
bobcat87 [Member] writes:
Thanks Jack for pointing out my misunderstanding about this blog -- my error. It is indeed a collaboration, which I didn't realize. In any event, it provides us all with a forum to voice our opinions and concerns, and as a way of keeping up with the latest information regarding the Cape Wind debate. I consider CCToday an excellent source of info about Cape Cod in general and appreciate their commitment to providing this site for all of us.
04/12/07 @ 3:21 pm
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
Cape Wind has come half-way down the mountain to discuss the perils of permitting with Cape Cod Today editor regarding dredging as the editor's comments here suggest.

Cape Cod Today represents the position of Cape Wind on dredging in their 9:51 AM comment this morning:

"Cape Wind categorically denies that any dredging will take place in constructing the wind farm."

Jack Coleman has extended invitation to Jim Gordon to respond to this Post subtitle, 'Cape Wind, to dredge or not to dredge?'

Will Jim Gordon come down from the mountain to back up Cape Cod Today's represention of Cape Wind's assertion, no dredging is required, and respond to Jack's invitation?

May we know if so why Conservation Law Foundation, Cape and Island’s Self-Reliance, Clean Power Now, Clean Water Action, Earth Policy Institute, Environment Massachusetts, Environmental League of Massachusetts, Greenpeace, Healthlink, MA Climate Action Network, Mass Energy, George M. Woodwell expect dredging would be required?
04/12/07 @ 4:10 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
From the newsroom (registered user) writes:

A fool and my money are soon parted.

If the opponents what to challenge that statement prior to permitting or construction or even once it has begun, they have a ball & go for it, and they will only further discredit & embarrass themselve...once again!

I commented to MMS months ago during the comment period that the need for dredging had not been addressed. In reading other comments to the MMS most were about global warming, renewable energy and savings on their electric bill.

To date Dona, Barbara and Neil have provided expert scientific evidence that this project will have little to no effect on global warming or electric bills.

I am putting my money where my mouth is. I will wager whatever you desire that if this project is approved massive dredging will occur before it is over.
04/12/07 @ 4:56 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
Dona...most folks spend their lives on the mainland and are suffering along with you and me. High gas prices, electric bills and the supposed threat of global warming.

Unfortunately, most don't even know where Horseshoe Shoal is located or could care less. I understand that. But Cape residents should understand that all life is interconnected and the destruction of Nantucket Sound will have far more ramifications for them than global warming, electric bills, etc.

The dredging that will be required will create an environmental nightmare from Woods Hole to P-Town and beyond. All to hopefully save a few cents on an electric bill.

What has happened to American values? Down the tube along with Nantucket Sound.

Sad, very sad.
04/12/07 @ 5:20 pm
Monponsett [Member] writes:
Dude... write the book. You can't lose with the story.

It's Green. It's Power Politics. It's Rich vs Richer. It's Geopolitical. It crosses borders- you can picture both a hippy and a CEO having an interest in reading it. It even has a Kennedy.

It's a gold mine.

If you start now... you can drop it on the market at some critical time.. Kennedy retiring, an Iran war, the CW ribbon-cutting, etc...


Now...seeing as I sketched out the basics, I deserve the prologue.

I'm thinking Ultraviolence... some doomed Marine stalking down a Basra street amidst the full horrors of war, spilling his blood to support our inane energy policy. I'll make it singe, trust me.
04/12/07 @ 5:42 pm
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
Capri "..pointing to draggers, which has nothing to do with the issue, is an attempt to deflect, as always."

FACT: dragging is the only fishing the WF would limit. Didn't SOS bring the draggers into the issue?

I know facts outside of SOS's well worn 'story' don't register w/you. This is not defection, I merely point out the marriages of convenience SOS uses.

Cape Wind has been dead on with it's information to organizations that actually check their facts.

Again, if large scale dredging is needed, I don't believe CW should or will build those turbines in question. I say this because I don't believe in wholesale disruption of Nantucket sound, like dragging, or the thousands of boats dumping their diesel & oil in the water (solution: biodiesel, sail boat)

1 of every 10,000 human caused bird deaths is from turbines(mostly older, poorly sited turbines), undeterred by facts you continue to tilt at turbines believing they are the problem.

All we are saying, is give wind a chance!
04/12/07 @ 7:47 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
Carl B...
"All we are saying, is give wind a chance!"

At the expense of Nantucket Sound?

Not a chance. Sorry.
04/12/07 @ 7:56 pm
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Tell you what, Mopo, if I ever do what you suggest, I'd be a fool not to have you write the prologue. Which pretty much ensures that it won't happen.

In response to From the Newsroom - do you routinely accept as gospel all assertions from developers?

Not sure, capri, whether Cape Wind will respond. But after complaining that I deprived them of the opportunity, it seems more than odd for the company not to respond now that the opportunity is before them.

Maverick, I like your idea about a wager, but I wouldn't bet even money either way on this one. With your idea in mind, however, I extend this offer of a wager to any and all Cape Wind supporters. Seeing how it is apparently beyond the realm of possibility that dredging will be needed for this project, how about a wager of one dollar with odds of, say, 1,000 to 1? If I lose, I will gladly pay $1 to any and all people willing to accept this wager. And if they lose, they each pay me $1,000.

Any takers?
04/12/07 @ 10:16 pm
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
maverick, you got one little flaw in your theory of harm to the sound.

It is the ultimate insult to the facts before us to even insinuate that WF construction (Barring massive dredging.) would ever do a fraction of the damage dragging does. You're a sports fisherman right? You know this right? Most fishermen with a clue do know this.

If you are still thinking IN ALL HONESTY that the WF will damage the sound, your senses have left you. If you persist I'll have to call you a liar yet again.

Once again, the straight poop, monopile driving, insignificantly harmful to life in the sound. Continued dragging VERY BAD for life in the sound.

You'll stand by & watch your buddy drag the bottom barren, but oh my god, a wind farm to increase fish stocks? Over my dead body. Oh yeah, it displaces mercury from the waters near where you fish, how dare they. Warnings of shallows, what's this crap.
How did your moral compass get so busted?
04/12/07 @ 10:42 pm
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
Maverick;

The best information source available on the characteristics of Nantucket Sound is the user of Nantucket Sound. You say that dredging would be required based on your daily, real-time observations traversing Nantucket Sound, and you’re a qualified source in my book.

The Conservation Law Foundation, and a host of others consider dredging will be required as well. Barbara Hill of CPN signed a letter to the effect that dredging would be required that was written and submitted by Conservation Law Foundation to Ian Bowles, state Secretary, the excerpt is in my 12;15 PM comment.

Jim Gordon hasn't responded on the dredging issue despite Jack invitations.

CPN and Conservation Law are in conflict with Cape Wind on an issue that could place Cape Wind in an impossible position, requiring addition permits, “nearly impossible to acquire according to the developer.”

What say you, Barbara Hill?

You’ve signed the letter that presumes dredging that Cape Wind states will not be required.
04/12/07 @ 11:22 pm
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
In fairness to CCToday's comment about Cape Wind's reduced footprint providing ample room to rearrange the turbine array, the reason for this is that the number of turbines shrank by a greater percentage - 170 to 130, 23.5 percent less - than did the footprint, 28 square miles to 24 - 14.3 percent smaller.

The map that accompanies this blog post, however, shows proposed locations for turbines in both the initial and altered configurations. The map initially came from the FEIR submitted by Cape Wind, with arrows added by the Alliance in its response to the FEIR. The arrows point specifically to turbines in the new configuration in depths less than 12 feet at mean low low water - better known as low tide.
04/13/07 @ 7:58 am
maverick [Member] writes:
Carl B...just to set the record straight. I am not a dragger, agree that it has done damage to the marine ecosystem and have stated such on many occasions. Your comments would be better directed to Dr. Bill Hogarth the head of the National Marine Fisheries Service.

This debate is about the environmental destruction that would occur from Cape Wind. You are using the same logic as Moses C. and it is a devious distraction from the real issue. Will dredging and how much be required.

Also, I hope that you have the opportunity to call me a liar to my face some day.
04/13/07 @ 8:07 am
Shecky [Member] writes:
Why don't the harpies want to take "NO" for an answer?
Is it because they have no facts and must resort over and over again to "the BIG LIE"?
"The reason Cape Wind's final environmental impact report makes no mention of dredging Horseshoe Shoal is that no dredging is needed for a construction barge to access the wind turbine locations," Mark Rodgers wrote." Cape Cod Times 3/22/07

If the opponents what to challenge that statement prior to permitting or construction or even once it has begun, they have a ball & go for it, and they will only further discredit & embarrass themselve...once again!
04/13/07 @ 8:15 am
Nantucket Ghost [Member] writes:
I really think Coleman has jumped ship… "Money talks & talking walks.”
04/13/07 @ 9:12 am
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
When you boil this issue down to the basics, the folks most opposed to the project are the ones responsible for the most harm to the environment.

Bill Koch is bankrolling the project and is a well-known oil tycoon. Marinas are poor stewards of the environment and Hyannis Marina was one of the plank-holders of SOS/Alliance. A perfect example is the fishing fleet of draggers/trawlers who Barbara and SOS/Alliance like to promote as our 'heritage trade.'

Another example is the steamship authority who spouts bogus navigation safety issues while their vessels are not equipped with inexpensive transponders which would allow them to obtain valuable information about the commercial vessels (or lack thereof) in their area.
04/13/07 @ 9:16 am
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
Capri - Slandering the entire shipping industry just because someone supports wind farms is ignorant.
04/13/07 @ 9:31 am
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
"Jumped ship," Nantucket Ghost? No longer "in the can" is more like it. Any relation to Stephen Peckham, by the way? Your voice sounds so familiar.

How puzzling that you and your like-minded cohorts are not taking me up on that wager. Money talks, indeed.
04/13/07 @ 9:41 am
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
If folks are going to oppose the wind farm for environmental reasons, they need to stand up to the scrutiny of their reasons for opposition and their current practices in relation to the environment.
04/13/07 @ 9:48 am
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
... and this answers the question of whether dredging will be needed ... how?
04/13/07 @ 10:05 am
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
SOS/Alliance has all the wrong backers to mount a successful attach on the wind farm. They are just plain wrong on most/all counts.
04/13/07 @ 10:12 am
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
This blog post wasn't written by the Alliance, lmco35, it was written by a wind farm supporter. If I'm plain wrong on this, why not accept the wager?
04/13/07 @ 10:15 am
neil good [Member] writes:
Here is another issue you might like to take on Moses. Cape Wind makes this bold claim in bold text, on their web page;

“Cape Wind can help slow global warming.”

Yet last June during the movie theater debate in Dennis, Mark Rogers said, "I agree with Charles [Vinick], Cape Wind will have no affect on global warming".

So what/who should the public believe? - the web page statement, or CW’s Communications Director?

I believe Mark Rodgers. The CW web page statement comes across as pure propaganda, targeted towards simpletons.
04/13/07 @ 10:17 am
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
Fine by me.
04/13/07 @ 10:22 am
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
fine by me as in, if dredging is not needed, I pay you $1, and if it is needed, you pay me $1,000? Just so we're clear.
04/13/07 @ 10:28 am
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
Dude - I'm not made of cash! I'll give you $5!
04/13/07 @ 10:34 am
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Dude - that's not the wager! It comes with odds, seeing how dredging is something that apparently absolutely is not going to happen. But if it's one of those solid apparent absolutes, why hesitate to make a wager with long odds, as in 1,000-to-1? Unless - could it be? - you doubt these repeated assertions that dredging won't be necessary, made without without a scintilla of evidence to back them up ...?
04/13/07 @ 10:43 am
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
Mr. Maverick, Do you still assert a WF is the destruction of Nantucket sound?

I commend you on your calm, measured response to my anger. I let my anger get the best of me because I am so fed up with assumptions that a WF is the destruction of Nantucket sound.

If you truly believe this, you are not a liar, you merely are ignoring the fact that existing windfarms in the world are not damaging the shallows they reside in, in fact WF's displace pollution, helping the local environment. What prevents you from seeing this? Which WF is destroying its waters? What proof do you have that is based in fact or real life example. I eagerly await a WF to prevent the damage being done by draggers.

Please, speak to less mercury, 130 new reefs, moorings in an emergency, warnings of shallows, less oil tankers traveling through the sound, lower local electric prices.

I apologize for saying "liar"in my rage. Will you debate me rationally on real benefits?

P.S. I never said you're a dragger.
04/13/07 @ 10:44 am
Nantucket Ghost [Member] writes:
Wrong guess - "Money talks & talking walks.” You're wrong on this and too pig-headed to admit it. If CW engineers thought any dredging were necessary, they would have to start the permitting process for dredging BEFORE the project was started or waiting for those additional approvals would prolong their project and it's cost.
04/13/07 @ 10:44 am
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
This whole dredge issue is a joke! Are you kidding me? Real dredging (i.e. Providence River) to allow real marine traffic to pass is on a scale exponentially above the wind farm 'dredging'. Dredging for a wind farm would be like dredging a marina, in my view.

Think about it. The goal is to set up pilings to support a tower, not deepen a channel to increase the available depth of water.
04/13/07 @ 10:48 am
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
Carl -- good points. FYI - very few if any tankers transit nantucket sound.
04/13/07 @ 10:49 am
Sacreblu [Member] writes:
Coleman was asserting that dredgeing was necessary for "some" turbine locations.
His error was in not contacting the developer before making that charge.
He gave support to the anti-wind farm zealots which could slow the project. Shame on you, JC.
04/13/07 @ 10:50 am
News-Hen [Member] writes:
Hey Jack, what's wrong with 5-to-1 odds?
Sounds like you don't want to take Imco35's bet.
04/13/07 @ 10:55 am
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
Imco35;

Cape Wind is a bad idea proposed for the worst possible location. I'm just trying to help you to cut to the chase as you're suggesting, again, that ulterior motive exists when citizens vocally object to Cape Wind. Perhaps obfuscation is your goal as you’re off topic and finger pointing.

I'm a witness to Jack Coleman's challenge to you to accept that wager, Imco35.

Are you prepared to put your money on the table in stating that Cape Wind will not require dredging? See Jack.

Speculating on Jack's motivation...Jack likely thinks that Cape Wind should be approved if a fair and comprehensive evaluation of the project demonstrates merits outweigh risks associated.

Jack Coleman hasn't crossed the isle. He's circumspect and intelligent and advocating for compliance and observance of the laws that provide good guidance in the decision making process. I think Jack understands that any short cuts taken by Cape Wind may result in a bad decision, under a flawed project evaluation, my guess.
04/13/07 @ 11:08 am
maverick [Member] writes:
lmc035@gmail.com writes:...This whole dredge issue is a joke! Are you kidding me? Real dredging (i.e. Providence River) to allow real marine traffic to pass is on a scale exponentially above the wind farm 'dredging'. Dredging for a wind farm would be like dredging a marina, in my view.

Imco...I have never observed a 24 sq. mile marina. Have you?

Comparing the Prov. River with Nantucket Sound is the biggest joke. The section being dredged has been the repository for R.I.'s industrial and human waste for the last century.. It is polluted and finally being cleaned up through the efforts of Save The Bay.

All we want to know is "will dredging be required". If the people spearheading the project can't agree on something this important it strikes at the heart of their credibility.
04/13/07 @ 11:11 am
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
Good point lmc035@gmail, correction; It will reduce tankers around cape waters.

I commend Jack on presenting the dredging point. This Windfarm has to pass muster on all counts to go forward.

The process has shown so far that the mostly baseless claims of SOS have fallen on deaf ears, due to a lack of credibility.

If massive dredging is needed, I cannot see that happening. I also believe there are ways around possible problems and CW would not invest the millions it has so far, and overlook this detail.

Again, I see CW's statements over 6 yrs have checked out with state & local agencies THAT CHECK FACTS. Put me down as someone who believes the statement "no dredging will be needed", & has disdain for anyone touting the non-argument 'Jim Gordon has not personally said that'.

Imagine the MMS saying "This wind farm proposal would go through, except Jim Gordon did not personally repeat a previously made official statement."

Happy Friday the 13th, my lucky day!
04/13/07 @ 11:14 am
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
Maverick - draggers/trawlers churn up thousands of square miles of the seafloor and I don't see SOS/Alliance doing anything other than partnering with them.

The wind farm will not require substantial (if any) dredging. It is like being concerned about WF oil spills, meanwhile oil goes into the sound regugarly from outboard engine discharge.
04/13/07 @ 11:19 am
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
Maverick - how can you justify the 'sport fishing' industry when scientists expect a total collapse in world fishing stocks by 2050?

What is sporty about using charter planes to catch tuna? What's sporty about baiting hooks for clients who clearly have no business on the water?

It's not like these folks survive on the fish they catch. Why should I be concerned about a wind farm causing your line of business to be altered in some small way?
04/13/07 @ 11:21 am
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
Maverick - how can the main backers of SOS/Alliance justify their arguments when they are in the same 'boat' as you are?
04/13/07 @ 11:47 am
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Ringo, if this is such a sure thing, why the problem with 1,000-to-1 odds? As I understand these things, a desire for lower odds is based on uncertainty. Surely you aren't entertaining the possibility of doubt ...?

Carl, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your comments. You know me well enough to know where this is coming from. If dredging isn't needed, great! One less obstacle toward getting this project built. But if it is needed, those who are strenuously denying it here, and Cape Wind, will look more than a little ridiculous.

Sometimes it takes a discussion just like the one we're engaged in to peel through the onion.
04/13/07 @ 11:48 am
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
Maverick, congratulations on SOS maneuver 3a. Take current talking point (the discussion is about 12 turbines locations in question) Blow it out of all proportion (I have never observed a 24 sq. mile marina. Have you?) and let the accusations begin.

How does the possibility of dredging near 12 turbines turn into dredging 24 sq miles?

Please explain.

I understand maneuver 3a does give you nearly endless talking points, just none in the real world.

Q: Why do SOS'ers continue down irrefutably disproven lines of reasoning over & over again?

A: They don't have any facts to back up their statements.

Is the issue about dredging 24 sq miles of horseshoe shoals? YES or NO?
04/13/07 @ 11:52 am
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
A good point, Carl. To suggest that Cape Wind may need to dredge 24 square miles, when it may not need to dredge any, is a huge exaggeration.

Sammy, take the time to read what I wrote in the blog post before responding. Nowhere did I state that "dredging was necessary." Shame on you for claiming I wrote something I didn't. Care to make a wager on this, incidentally?
04/13/07 @ 11:55 am
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
How about all the Cape Cod & Islands dredging projects that go on regularly to support yachting/boating? How much BS is that? Let's not have a wind farm but full speed ahead on marina dredging...
04/13/07 @ 12:05 pm
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
Imco35;

The subject you're avoiding is the topic of this Post, dredging. Cape Wind, according to Cape Cod Today, should have opportunity to respond, but they have not done so when the opportunity has been provided. Jack's Post responds to Cape Wind's published statements. The silence is very telling coming from Cape Wind and CPN quarters right now.

Barbara Hill, who signed a letter that incorporated dredging in language by Conservation Law Foundation to Ian Bowles on the FEIR, is conspicuously absent as are other team Cape Wind members.

We have contradictory positions and statements flowing on this critical issue.

Back to Jack's offer, Imco35, do you wish to accept his terms in stating Cape Wind will not require dredging?

We have conflicting information about dredging from CLF that includes this action in their comments to the state on the FEIR—Cape Wind is contradicted.

Red flag #642
04/13/07 @ 12:07 pm
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Time for me to break from the discussion, my daughter just came home from school. Maybe when I return, someone - anyone - will have taken me up on that wager. Usually you don't see such hesitation when it comes to a sure thing.
04/13/07 @ 12:56 pm
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
Jack,

I think that you've separated the men from the boys, and the women from the girls.

The boys and girls don't seem to wish to take you up on your wager offer.

All are quick to say that Cape Wind won't require dredging, but hesitant to put their money at risk, and back up their claims.

I think it's a safe bet that dredging will occur, and that would put Cape Wind in a vulnerable position without required permits.

Red flag #643
04/13/07 @ 1:05 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
Imco35 and Carl B...is this a game of "who asks the most questions wins".

I asked one simple question over a year ago "what is the draft of the construction barges and will dredging be required?"

To this day I have not received or read anywhere the true answer to that simple request.

If you would like answers to your fishing questions I would be happy to provide them as long as CCT allows me to go off topic.
04/13/07 @ 1:30 pm
Shecky [Member] writes:
Dona Tracy writes:
“There will be at least two types of dredging (and possible blasting) in the Nantucket Sound by the Cape Wind project. The one at issue here is dredging huge channels for the construction boats. The other is dredging the entire area for electrical cables.” 04/13/07 @ 12:09 pm

Dona, please inform us readers of your valued source for this definitive information. You seem quite convinced. In order to take you seriously you really should share the validity in order to document your assertions - Don’t you think? (Or, is the answer a foregone conclusion?)
Have never ever heard of “dredging” in order to lay under-sea cables. Is this a new method that we should be concerned about? I was wondering now: Why didn’t they use your method when they laid the cables to Nantucket recently? It seems you know way more than CW’s engineers about how this project will advance. Tell us more please. Maybe they will hire you as a consultant to share your methodologies.
Or are you just a bag of wind as usual.
04/13/07 @ 1:32 pm
News-Hen [Member] writes:
Fellas and gals, haven't you figured out that these anti-wind vigilantes (Dona, Durkin & Good) have no "facts", only the BIG LIE repeated over and over ahgain.
CW is blessed to have such idiotic and phony opponents.
04/13/07 @ 1:33 pm
bobcat87 [Member] writes:
The dredging that is necessary to maintain harbors and local waterways is COMPLETELY different than that which might (and probably would be) necessary to allow the potential installation of wind turbines in less than 12 feet of water. Marina dredging is regulated by state and local authorities, I am sure, and are to the benefit of everyone who boats in those waters. Dredging in these areas, if I am not mistaken, is essential to the health of areas like Waquoit Bay, Tashmoo Pond, and the like. It allows the necessary exchange of water, nutrients, and wildlife between the many bays and saltwater ponds that dot the coastline and the open ocean. That being said, dredging in the open waters of Nantucket Sound is unnecessary and damaging (unless you're Jim Gordon). Nantucket Sound belongs to everyone, not to Jim Gordon to do with as he pleases. Who would be responsible for monitoring the dredging? Who would pay for the many man hours that would be necessary in order to objectively oversee the process? Would marine charts need to be re-surveyed and re-written, published?
04/13/07 @ 1:51 pm
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
Again - let's weigh the needs of boaters against the need for electricity...

Let's weigh the needs of disturbing the environmemt to suite the summer recreational requirement of 1% of cape cod residents against powering 75% of their homes with clean renewable energy.
04/13/07 @ 1:53 pm
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
No need to resurvey as the area is already marked as a SHOAL.
04/13/07 @ 2:24 pm
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
Oh.. so what about the cable for NSTAR to bring the same commodity to Nantucket to meet the needs of the McMansion owners?
04/13/07 @ 2:25 pm
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Thank you, barbaradurkin. Your comment back at 10:55 a.m. about my motivation has it exactly right. Cape Wind must win approval based on its merit or lack thereof, not the hopes and dreams of its supporters. And it speaks volumes about its supporters that after more than 85 comments here in the course of three days, at least half from wind farm advocates - but none from Cape Wind itself - not a single comment has pointed out an inaccuracy or flaw in the logic of my blog post.

If this is such a slam dunk, to borrow a phrase from George Tenet, why all the gnashing of teeth?
04/13/07 @ 2:38 pm
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
Jack -

The barges may be self propelled which makes tugs unnecessary (tugs normally have a greater draft).

I think you should consider that there are certainly good sources of information about dredging for wind farms, etc.

This from one of the denmark projects

"Dispersal of sediments during construction work
The waste from dredging and handling of the sediment will be maximum 5%. The total need for soil removal is about 25,000 m3. The total waste is estimated to a maximum of 1,050 m3, which is a little less than one day's waste from dredging at the Øresund Bridge. "
04/13/07 @ 2:41 pm
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
Jack - put up your $1 and I'll put up my $5.
04/13/07 @ 2:46 pm
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
Here's a factoid - In building Disney World, 185 acres of wetlands were deemed unusable, so they decided to dredge it and create another body of water to extend Bay Lake, creating Seven Seas Lagoon. They built a water bridge to connect the two bodies of water.

The Seven Seas Lagoon dredging provided more than seven million cubic yards of earth, which they used to raise the ground at the theme park site an average of 14 feet.
04/13/07 @ 2:58 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
Imco35...you just don't seem to understand the big picture.

Why doesn't CW just give us the exact name of "ALL" the barges to be used and their projection of dredging requirements.

If the barge specs contradict what they are proposing for dredge requirements I have a big problem.

And you my gullible friend should have one to. Or are you potentially going to benefit like the rest of the shills.

Including this rag.
04/13/07 @ 3:38 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
Imco35...please visit http://www.capecodcharterfishingboats.com and then tell me the individuals did not belong on the ocean or have the right to catch a fish for the grill.

What do you suggest? STOP AND SHOP. You my friend are what is wrong with America.
04/13/07 @ 3:49 pm
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
Just because your clients are having a good time doesn't mean it benefits the environment.

Your 'industry' isn't as bad as the draggers/trawlers who scour the ocean floor.

Maverick - how about the names of all the sport fishing boats and the tonnage they harvest from the ocean on an annual basis? And the type of bottom paint you use for your boat? And the type of marine sanitation device you have on your boat...?

Multiply that by the commercial/recreational fleet.
04/13/07 @ 4:07 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
Imco35...I have other things to do in my life besides respond to your diversions from Jack Coleman's question.

My bottom paint, sanitation device, and everything on my boat is inspected and approved annually by the USCG. If you have a problem with that take it up with them.

As to the sea being depleted of marine life in 2050 that was a premise if certain things weren't accomplished. The wheels are in motion internationally to prevent that. And sportfishing was not a major concern contributing to that prediction.

With all of your retorts you still haven't mentioned if you are now or in the future going to benefit financialy from Cape Wind. Nor has Carl B. HMMMMM.
04/13/07 @ 4:26 pm
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
Dear Dr. Cluck:

I provide this forward 'Valid Criticism-from the opposition' by Jack Coleman as a concerned private citizen.

The Conservation Law Foundation submitted comments on the Cape Wind FEIR to MA Secretary Ian Bowles on March 22, 2007, reference "dredging”.

Cape Wind states that they do not anticipate dredging of Nantucket Sound will be required. I assume that this action would require Cape Wind to apply for state and federal permits.

Many are reviewing the Cape Wind project, and many conclude that dredging would be a necessary action. Conservation Law Foundation's comments to Secretary Bowles validate our concern that Cape Wind will require dredging.

Cape Cod residents, opposing or supporting this project, are concerned that “Cape Wind's own numbers in the FEIR provide ample reason for skepticism about its no-dredging assertion.”

Thank you for taking the time to review this material, and the Cape Wind project.

Most Respectfully,

Barbara Durkin
04/13/07 @ 4:32 pm
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
First, the foundation was placed. It is a cylindrical steel tube with a diameter of about 4 metres and a material thickness of 4.5 cm. As specially designed jack-up vessels with heavy-duty hydraulic hammers was used to drive the mono-pile some 28 to 34 metres into the seabed depending on the geology of the seabed.

Pile driving is a fast process, and piles are relatively inexpensive to produce. Geotechnical surveys at Kentish Flats show that the seabed consists of layers of sand and not too dense clay, which make mono-pile foundations particularly attractive.

The foundation ramming takes approx two hours for each monopile. Under certain weather conditions the noise from the ramming might be audible from land.

A transition piece was then casted on the foundation pile. The transition piece was pre-installed with features such as boat landing arrangement, cathoc protection, cable ducts for sub-marine cables, turbine tower flange, etc.
04/13/07 @ 4:34 pm
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
These guys have a jack-up rig which was used for the Horns-Rev install...

For more details please contact:

Combinatie Berging Tricolor
Lars Walder
Public Relations Manager CBT
Tel: +31 (0) 10 454 92 74
Mobile: +31 (0) 6 53 43 27 65
Mail: l.walder@smit.com
Internet: www.tricolorsalvage.com
04/13/07 @ 4:39 pm
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
The Buzzard was used on the Horn Rev install and has a 15 foot draft so it'll float over the 12 foot spots as long as it is lightered somewhat. OR, they use another similar rig with a slightly lower depth requirement.

Flat bottom barges used to carry deck cargo typically don't have more than 10-15 feet of draft so I don't see the need to dredge to install the towers.



Main particulars
Length : 43,00 m Displacement: 3800 tonnes
Width: 30,00 m Deck load: 10ton/ m² working area
Depth: 4,20 m 5 ton/m² accommodation
Max Draft: 2,97 m pay load: 600 tonnes
04/13/07 @ 4:39 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
Imco35...are you speaking for Cape Wind?
04/13/07 @ 4:41 pm
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
Oops.. actually the buzzard would fit handily over the 12 foot spots.. with it's max draft of 10 feet!
04/13/07 @ 4:48 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
Imco35...my friend. You have not answered my questions.

Are you now or will you profit in any way from Cape Wind?

And are you speaking for Cape Wind with the specifications you have posted?
04/13/07 @ 4:50 pm
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
Jack - when you build a fence, would you dig up a big hole and put the fence pole in or would you dig a small hole with just enough room for the fence pole?

Maverick - sorry, I don't take a paycheck by anyone associated with the project and the only benefit I currently receive is talking to you and yours and the only future benefit is seeing a great wind farm in operation!
04/13/07 @ 4:52 pm
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
This barge was actually used to salvage a car carrier full of new Audis,BMWs,SAABS, etc when the ship sank in the english channel:

Check out the photos:

http://www.tricolorsalvage.com/pages/fleet_buzzard.asp
04/13/07 @ 4:58 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
Imco35...If your barge,etc. specifications are only your thoughts how do we get the real specs from Cape Wind. Maybe you could help.
Thanks,
Jack
04/13/07 @ 6:07 pm
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
As I said to you once before, Jack, there will always be a bridge across the divide that exists between us.

It's nice to know that I've correctly interpreted your sound reasoning for Posting this contribution. You are circumspect, intelligent, and advocating for compliance and observance of the laws that provide good guidance in the decision making process. And, you understand that any short cuts taken by Cape Wind may result in a bad decision, under a flawed project evaluation process.

While we are on opposite sides of this issue, we share common ground.

Do we also share uncommon sense?
04/13/07 @ 6:15 pm
Buzz [Member] writes:
Capri,

"Moses, ever sold a house? The land must be surveyed each time it changes hands."

Would you like to explain? That's simply not true.

That's what I love about these blogs, people just throw crap out there all the time.

Why don't we all take a deep (no pun intended) breath and take a step back and let the process and professionals do there job.

Instead of all playing scientist, biologist, surveyor, engineer, lets just be honest.

I don't want the wind farm in it's location because it's a blight on the landscape....period.
04/13/07 @ 7:27 pm
neil good [Member] writes:
I must say Ringo- you do provide loads of entertainment.

At 1:32 pm you wrote- “(Dona, Durkin & Good) have no "facts", only the BIG LIE repeated over and over again. CW is blessed to have such idiotic and phony opponents.”

Please shed more light on what you believe to be the ‘BIG LIE.’

Don’t you agree the biggest phonies on Cape Cod Today are the people who hide behind fake names?
04/13/07 @ 7:39 pm
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
That would be me, too, on the view, Buzz. I don’t consider this a one adverse impact per customer issue. There are so many potential adverse impacts that will occur if Cape Wind is permitted—it scares me.

It should come as no surprise under an ad hoc review of a world's largest industrial project that problems with Cape Wind continue to surface.

The developer has selected this site based on his cost considerations.

If it wasn't for private citizen shoring up this process, MMS would not even know about the inclusion of the Electrical Service Platform ESP that would contain 40,000 gallons of unnamed oil if this project is constructed in the developer’s choice location, pathetically speaking.

Dona raises excellent points, consider legal boundaries defined as a condition of a property transfer.

Thank you, Cliff Carroll.
04/13/07 @ 8:38 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
Buzz...your comment "
Instead of all playing scientist, biologist, surveyor, engineer, lets just be honest."

That's all we are asking Cape Wind to be "honest".

Is that to much to ask with Nantucket Sound in the balance.
04/13/07 @ 8:53 pm
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
lmco35, in response to your question, I'd dig a small hole with just enough room for the fence pole. When this type of work is performed on a shoal, it's known as dredging.

My offer of a wager comes with 1,000 to 1 odds, not the 5 to 1 odds suggested by you. Thank you for suggesting them, however; by doing so you bolstered my premise.

Perhaps you are unclear on the concept of the "sure thing." Allow me to explain. If someone offers you 1,000 to one odds against the sun rising in the east tomorrow, that's a bet you really want to take. If you did, you are virtually certain to win a dollar and not lose $1,000. See how it works? If you wish to make that type of wager with me, I'd readily accept, despite those daunting 1,000 to one odds.

Why the hesitation to accept my wager, by you and every single Cape Wind supporter who has commented here, and by those who read the post and haven't commented, except for a glaringly obvious reason - you don't know one way or the other whether dredging will be necessary.

Money talks, uncertainty folds.
04/13/07 @ 11:04 pm
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
maverick, if by honest, do you mean that 'No dredging will be necessary' must be spoken by Jim Gordon alone? ...or is it O.K. if his company puts out an official statement saying the same thing.

Such a tempest in a Tea-shoal.

If CW really must dredge and is trying to cover it up, you should be jumping with joy. They would finally trip up and not be able to go forward.

I would think this conspiracy is just what you've been waiting for. Now, you could spend all day blogging, or break into CW's offices and get the real poop.

Darn! I just gave away the perfect plan. Uhhh, wait, forget I said anything.

Nice day huh?
04/13/07 @ 11:31 pm
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
It probably is just a tempest in a tea-shoal, Carl. And maybe it will be quelled by an official statement from Cape Wind - make that, another official statement from Cape Wind - categorically denying that dredging will be necessary. And maybe such a statement will pass muster with MMS, where it really matters, and maybe it won't.

But official statements, in the wake of Enron, Sept. 11, Katrina and Iraq, don't carry the weight they used to. Looking back over the last few years, I suspect I've placed too much faith in official statements. The time has come for something decidedly more substantial.
04/14/07 @ 7:25 am
bittersweet [Member] writes:
So, what do you all suggest? Something has to be done...we can't keep going on as we are. The planet is dying! And honestly, it is hypocritical when you think of how much pollution all these current fishing boats, and pleasure boats already cause to the natural environment. But that's a price we are willing to pay for the benefit of those who can afford a boat. So, why not outlaw diesel engine motors from the waters?(if that's what they use) That will never happen. It profits too many. So, maybe the wind farm is an opportunity for a better way. And honest to god, there are some of us who could sure use a break on these bills that keep going go up and up and up, while our salaries stay the same! Or is Cape Cod really just for people with a lot of money?, and should that really be the way? You gotta ask, which situation causes the most damage...the one we're in now, or the possible one with a wind farm? Oil from the Saudi's, or an opportunity to be self-sustaining?
04/14/07 @ 7:42 am
Monponsett [Member] writes:
Nice, Jack... you have more comments here than I've had my entire CCToday career... and I flirt.
04/14/07 @ 8:52 am
neil good [Member] writes:
Bittersweet says, “Something has to be done...we can't keep going on as we are. The planet is dying!”

All this talk of ‘doom and gloom,’ and how the end is near, brings to mind the legend of Superman. Here is a small part of the Wikipedia article on Jor-El- [Superman’s father].

“When Krypton began experiencing a series of earthquakes, Jor-El investigated, and soon discovered that Krypton's core was greatly unstable, and would eventually explode, taking the entire planet and its populace with it. Jor-El tried to convince the members of Krypton's ruling body, the Science Council, of this impending disaster, and urged re-establishing Krypton's space program so giant spacecraft could be built to carry the populace to another habitable world. However, the Council was dismissive of Jor-El's findings, and refused to comply with his plan.”

Untied Nations = The Science Council?

If you really believe the planet is dying read The Skeptical Environmentalist by Bjørn Lomborg.
04/14/07 @ 9:10 am
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
Capri:

This Post was emailed to authorities at MMS, copied to MEPA, CZM, Congress, federal regulatory reviewing agencies, and representatives of the public.

This Post represents local citizens' expressed valid concerns regarding the Cape Wind project review. NEPA cares.

If Cape Wind would dredge, they would be required to obtain state and federal permits.

There is a glaring discrepancy between Conservation Law Foundation's statements on dredging to Ian Bowles; and Cape Wind's Mark Rodger's published statement of 3/22 to Cape Cod Times reprinted in this Post.

CLF incorporates dredging in their comments on the FEIR; and Rodgers states dredging will not occur. The Cape Wind FEIR supporting documents submitted to Ian Bowles, "provide amply reason for skepticism.”

We can't expect a good outcome from this review process if Cape Wind is allowed to circumvent the procedural process, and sidestep obtaining required state and federal permits on any action.
04/14/07 @ 9:22 am
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
That's right Neil, there's no global warming or climate change, the ice sheets are not shrinking, we didn't just have the warmest winter on record, clean renewable energy is a farce, oil & coal aren't destroying the health of our communities.

I see now the entirety of how we've all been fooled. The science/research cartel has got us right where it wants us, foolishly trying to cut emissions and generate our energy locally instead of paying higher & higher rates to fund unstable countries trying to kill us.

I am so glad we have an honest government that fought climate change hysteria for so long, they are truly a voice of reason. Now if Bush can only convince our pesky population that if we only kill a million more terrorists we'll have lasting peace. We're probably only a trillion $ short of our goal.

Neil, superman isn't going to burn off all the CO2 with his heat vision, though it would be nice if went back in time to urge us to build up renewables in the 70's.
04/14/07 @ 9:51 am
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
Capri:

Dr. Cluck of MMS has kindly responded to my previous correspondence, so I am hopeful that he will respond to this last.

The FEIR states:

“The best available data suggests that fatal bird collision resulting from the operation of the Cape Wind Project will be in the range of 0 to 2 birds per turbine per year or a maximum of 260 bird fatalities annually.”

But, MA Audubon's comments on the DEIS state:

“By utilizing other bird mortality data provided in the DEIS, Mass Audubon staff scientists arrived at avian mortalities that ranged from 2,300 to 6,600 collision deaths per year.”

What happened to 6,340 previously declared annual avian mortalities? There is no mention of them in the FEIR.

The state Secretary rubber stamped Cape Wind's FEIR.

We can only hope that on the federal level, MMS will not do the same.
04/14/07 @ 10:04 am
neil good [Member] writes:
Carl, google the ‘Greenie Watch Blog’ and the ‘Global Warming Hysteria’ webpage. Spend some time reading- think of it as “continuing education.”

The following is highly recommended. Look for the link on the Global Warming Hysteria articles page-

“The Economic and Politics of Climate Change: A Call To Reason” (Nov. 1, 2006) An address given by former Lord Chancellor Lord Nigel Lawson to the Centre for Policy Studies in London. Without doubt one of the best articulated and - as it claims - reasoned cases dealing with the science, the economics, the arrogance of a science community that is really just guessing, the disturbing attack on free speech and, once more, environmentalism as a religious movement. If you do not read anything else, read this article. It is only 18 pages long.”
04/14/07 @ 1:46 pm
Chuck Kleekamp [Member] writes:
On Dredging

I have no idea whether or not dredging will be needed for the wind farm.

But in perspective, let me share with you a dredging industry that is going on right now in Nantucket Sound. It’s called hydraulic dredging. What’s that, you ask?

Hydraulic dredges are devices pulled behind vessels that harvest shellfish, similar to a dragger. Only these dredges pump some 8,000 gal/min of water at 125 psi through an 8-inch hose to a 9-foot wide manifold with jets aimed to fluidize the benthic community up to a foot deep to dislodge shellfish and bycatch that are scoped up in the following cage.

According to the Harwich harbormaster, up to a dozen of these dredges operate on Nantucket Sound. The trails left by these dredges viewed by side-scan sonar look like lazy figure 8’S.

Jack, if you’d like to do an article on hydraulic dredging in the sound, I have photos, sonar images, etc. It may be revealing to readers to know about the impact of this dredging industry on fluidizing the benthic community.
04/14/07 @ 3:25 pm
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
It's possible that the number one killer of American birds is a much-beloved, domestic pet.

Experts say outdoor cats may kill hundreds of millions of wild birds each year -- but they aren't exactly sure how many.

Now, the American Bird Conservatory is asking pet owners to help count any small animals their household pets kill. When pet owners see a household pet kill a bird, squirrel, or anything else, they can go to the ABC's "Project Predator Watch" Web site and fill in the details.
04/14/07 @ 3:28 pm
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
No one knows what birds see when they look out at the world, says ornithologist Daniel Klem, but he's sure they don't see glass. He estimates that at least 1 billion birds are killed by flying into windows every year in the United States.

"It's a very common phenomenon," said Klem. "Birds are deceived. They just don't see glass as a barrier and this is a problem for them."
04/14/07 @ 5:38 pm
Chuck Kleekamp [Member] writes:
A matter of perspective and balance.

Laying in power cables once every 25 years or so is far different from a dozen hydraulic dredges operating every day. On balance which is more destructive?

On birds, balance the few killed by offshore wind farms compared to domestic cats, bird hunters, high buildings, etc. Should we have open season on cats? Outlaw all bird hunting? And take down all high buildings? Someone helped us with that on 9/11. Global warming is far more likely to cause extinction of bird species. And let’s wean ourselves from importing oil and natural gas... sending our wealth to those unfriendly and unstable foreign sources that support terrorists.

And in perspective, if not wind power then what? Conservation sure, but that’s not the total solution anymore than wind alone. Like the ad says “The world’s demand for energy will never stop.” The other power options are coal, oil, gas, and nuclear. Your choice.
04/14/07 @ 6:21 pm
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
C'mon, capri, give credit where credit is due. Chuck is acknowledging that dredging is a valid issue. Remember what I told you about him? He just demonstrated an example of it.

Chuck, in answer to your question, yes, I'd like to learn more about hydraulic dredging used in commercial fishing. I'll be in touch.
04/14/07 @ 7:36 pm
neil good [Member] writes:
Chuck, we all know, or should know, that commercial fishing is highly regulated. Hydraulic dredging can be banned, and has been banned.

The Provincetown Center for Coastal Studies reports- “Hydraulic pumping for sea clams was once outlawed in Cape Cod Bay. Over the past decade, however, it has been re-implemented in an attempt to increase the harvesting of these clams.”

The Town of Harwich rules are on line-

1) “Taking of legal sized quahogs by means of hydraulic shellfish dredging…is permitted in the deep water of Nantucket Sound south of the 12’ contour line, east of the Nantucket Cable... Catch limits may be subject to change according to the Massachusetts Division of Marine Fisheries.”

For more ‘perspective and balance’ as you say above, wind speeds on Nantucket Sound are under six knots and Cape Wind reports it would be producing ‘Zero megawatts’- again.

Allow me to rephrase your question slightly-

If there is no wind power then what?
04/14/07 @ 7:44 pm
Chuck Kleekamp [Member] writes:
Just a note. Jetting in power cables is not dredging. Again, I have no have no idea whether or not dredging will be needed for the wind farm. Jack, I’ll send you some information on hydraulic clam dredges.

Regards,
Chuck K.
04/14/07 @ 7:48 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
Jack C...Love you and your integrity but I have major problems with Chuck.

Whatever is wrong with America and failed laws and programs in the past is not an excuse to allow Cape Wind to decimate Nantucket Sound under the false pretense that it will lower electric bills, stop global warming, reduce emissions from fossil fuel and clean the air on the Cape.

Has Chuck ever campaigned against hydraulic dredging? Does Chuck eat seafood? Has Chuck taken you up on your wager?

Money talks and Chuck balks. I find it hard to believe you could support this shill in any way.
04/14/07 @ 7:51 pm
Chuck Kleekamp [Member] writes:
On wind power in the Sound

Following are data from the US Dept. of Energy Analysis, June 6, 2004, Exhibit III, for one year on a monthly basis in Apr of 03, with the Capacity Factor (CP) based on full load of 454 MW.

Apr 03 150,390 MWh, CP 46.0%
May 03 108,910 MWh, CP 32.2%
Jun 03 49,267 MWh, CP 15.1%
Jul 03 109,517 MWh, CP 32.4%
Aug 03 112,952 MWh, CP 33.4%
Sep 03 89,717 MWh, CP 27.4%
Oct 03 148,365 MWh, CP 43.9%
Nov 03 145,959 MWh, CP 44.6%
Dec 03 219,112 MWh, CP 64.8%
Jan 04 212,333 MWh, CP 62.8%
Feb.04 146,670 MWh, CP 48.1%
Mar 04 198,067 MWh, CP 58.6%
Total: 1,691,261 MWh, CP 42.5% over a year.

It’s not instantaneous power at any moment in time that’s relative. It’s the total over a month or year. Every megawatt of power from wind is a megawatt less from oil or gas generated electricity.
04/14/07 @ 8:05 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
Chuck...HELLO...what do those statistics have to do with the decimation of Nantucket Sound.

Would you provide a side by side chart that showed what every megawatt of power generated did to damage all the marine and avian life on the Cape and Nantucket Sound?
04/14/07 @ 9:19 pm
neil good [Member] writes:
Chuck, you are merely repeating one of the great myths about wind power. You ignore the fact that even when the wind IS howling, the base load plants are still spinning.

The German 2005 E.ON Netz Wind Report includes this inconvenient fact-

“Wind energy is only able to replace traditional power stations to a limited extent. Their dependence on the prevailing wind conditions means that wind power has a limited load factor even when technically available. It is not possible to guarantee its use for the continual cover of electricity consumption. Consequently, traditional power stations with capacities equal to 90% of the installed wind power capacity [a little over the maximum historical wind power infeed] must be permanently online in order to guarantee power supply at all times.”
04/14/07 @ 9:42 pm
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
Maverick states "...allow Cape Wind to decimate Nantucket Sound..."

Mr. Maverick, a liar is someone who knowingly makes an untrue statement.

You allude to the destruction of the sound but your version of how that would happen is 0-19 with agencies that are required to be ACCURATE.

Every line of reasoning you've used has been shot full of holes, so much so, this illusion of a dredging issue is all you have left.

Again, where in the real world is a Windfarm destroying the shallows it inhabits?

The SOS can agree with it self as much as it wants, the fractional damage of windfarms when measured with other utility scale power production still makes it the cleanest power around.

I cannot call you a liar if you believe this mythical destruction of the sound, I can only call you wrong, and I will tell it to you face, as I tell it to all the alliance.

I'll continue to call you on this fiction every time you bring it up.
04/14/07 @ 10:23 pm
Monponsett [Member] writes:
I love when coastal people argue.
04/14/07 @ 11:46 pm
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
Global warming has taken the place of Communism as an absurdity that "liberals" will defend to the death regardless of the evidence showing its folly. Evidence never has mattered to real Leftists

Niel, you steered me to this crap? (greenie watch website)

I know you make a habit of quoting some of the more believable crackpot websites out there, but there was less evidence than a Rush Limbaugh show there.

No wonder your grasp on reality is so tenuous.

Tell me again how biodiesel, wind, & solar power can't make our communities cleaner, stronger, and more independent?

Go watch 'who killed the electric car' and tell me how full of lies it is.
04/15/07 @ 12:33 am
neil good [Member] writes:
Carl, it is sad to see you put so much energy into personal attacks. You are only harming yourself, and your cause.

I have to confess I was thinking of you earlier tonight- in a nice way of course- when I saw this online editorial from New York’s Newsday newspaper. It brings to mind your rendition of “Blowing in the Wind" at the 2004 Cambridge MIT hearing.

Opinion, April 8, 2007

“THE ANSWER, MY FRIEND, IS NOT BLOWIN' IN THE WIND”

“Harnessing the wind to generate electricity is a laudable goal, but rising costs will make LIPA's off-shore project unaffordable”

“The winds have shifted.”

“The Long Island Power Authority's proposal to build a grid of industrial-strength wind generators a few miles into the ocean off Jones Beach is adrift. It's too expensive, and it should remain at sea…”
04/15/07 @ 9:10 am
neil good [Member] writes:
Carl, google “Who Killed the Electric Car TCS”

“Electric cars have been pronounced dead many times… Auto history is littered with their names: Morris & Salom Electrobat, American Electric, Bushberry Electric Dog Cart, Krieger, Woods, Baker, Detroit, Columbia, Riker, Foster, Rauch & Lang, Flanders, Studebaker, Waverly, Van Wagoner, to name a few.”

“They have succeeded as purpose-built vehicles- fork lifts, golf carts, "city cars," airport shuttles and the like. But they have never become the car for the open road, the let's-drive-over-to-the-shore-for-the-weekend car. Why?

“Let's go over this one more time, class: Range. Range is the problem. Electric cars do not have sufficient range to be the practical, versatile, every day car most people want…”

“People who go around grousing and moaning about who killed the electric car are people with a schooled ignorance about markets and the realities of physics- and an intellectual arrogance- not only about what you and I should drive, but about how we should live.”
04/15/07 @ 10:47 am
maverick [Member] writes:
Carl B...are the construction barge specifications "fact" or "fiction"?

If they are "fact" where might I find a copy.

If the are "fiction" how could Massachusetts overlook this in it's approval process.
04/15/07 @ 10:51 am
Buzz [Member] writes:
Mav, Neil, Carl, Capri, Barb, Monpon and Chuck,

Take a break from the dredging issue and take a look at this fascinating story.

http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/wildlife/article2449968.ece
Apparently some scientists have discovered a theory on why the "bee" population is disappearing.
04/15/07 @ 11:37 am
Monponsett [Member] writes:
What'd I do?
04/15/07 @ 1:07 pm
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
“In addition, there is serious concern that the construction of these towers will have permanent effects on critical shallow fish habitats. The project will require laying more than 100 miles of cable by plowing into the seabed, driving the bases of its 130 turbines deep into the seabed, and performing dredging in areas too shallow to currently accommodate the work boats needed for construction of the turbines. Destruction of fish habitat is unavoidable.”

Senator Ted Kennedy
04/15/07 @ 3:29 pm
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
Collapse: End of Global Fish Stock by 2050?

Declining Stocks

A study published in the November 3 issue of Science has raised the alarm about the declining number of fish species in the world. Using historical analysis, it projects the collapse of all fish stock by 2048. This was the first study on a global scale to investigate the role of biodiversity in marine ecosystems.
04/15/07 @ 3:32 pm
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
The barge used to put the turbines up on Horns Rev has a 10 foot draft which would allow it to install on Horseshoe Shoal with room to spare...
04/15/07 @ 5:22 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Here's from an article in Mother Jones magazine (don't just dismiss it) "Of the 40,168 species that the 10,000 scientists in the World Conservation Union have assesed, 1 in 4 mammals, 1 in 8 birds, 1 in 3 amphibians, 1 in 3 conifers and other gymnosperms are at risk of extinction. Fully 40% of the examined species of planet Earth are in danger, including up to 51% of reptiles, 52% of insects,and 73% of flowering plants."Harvard biologist Edward O. Wilson estimates that somewhere between 2.7 and 270 species are erased from existence every day. In 93 years, half of all life on Earth will be extinct." Now, this could be a natural phenomena, but somehow I think we have a lot to do with it! And that's the question. Do we care? And can we fight the power structure anyway, nomatter how much we care? Look what happened to Tesla when he discovered FREE ENERGY. Imagine what the world would be like if he would have been allowed to expand his vision. A lot of people would be out of a lot of very cushy and profitable jobs, but we and the planet would be much better off! ozone/argon energy??
04/15/07 @ 6:42 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
Capri...while people debate what Imus or Howie did or didn't say the Cape Wind gang continues to distort the truth.

Imco...I could care less about the draft of barges anywhere else in the world. What is the draft of construction barges proposed for Cape Wind. If you don't know please be quiet. If you do know please enlighten all of us.

Thanks,
Jack
04/15/07 @ 6:52 pm
neil good [Member] writes:
Half of all life extinct in 93 years? Look for “The Might's, May's and Could's Of Global Warming”

“The U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service is proposing to declare the polar bear to be threatened with extinction- a process that is supposed to be based on the “best available science”…[but] the Service is having trouble finding definitive, clear science…”

An official comment submitted by a certain Julie Smithson lists the use of nebulous, unprovable words in the listing, example-

"might" appears on 11 pages.

"may" appears 48 times.

”may be difficult to measure” appears 70+ times.

"possibly" 19 times.

"potential" 46 times"

“potentially" 6 times.

“could" over 50 times.

“If the Fish & Wildlife Service can't make a case for the polar bear, which supposedly has been placed at risk by one of the less controversial claims of the Warmies, what of all the other claims… posing under the guise of science?”
04/15/07 @ 7:50 pm
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
Chuck:

You are the Informational Director of Clean Power Now, and state that you don’t know if Cape Wind will require dredging. Barbara Hill is the Executive Director of Clean Power Now. She has provided her signature as Executive Director of CPN to Conservation Law Foundation’s letter to state Secretary Ian Bowles on the CapeWind FEIR. This letter includes dredging as an action that will occur if Cape Wind is constructed. The excerpt language is provided in my earlier comments.

Care to explain why?

CAPE WIND WILL REQUIRE DREDGING:

Senator Ted Kennedy, Conservation Law Foundation, Cape and Island’s Self-Reliance, Clean Power Now, Clean Water Action, Earth Policy Institute, Environment Massachusetts, Environmental League of Massachusetts, Greenpeace, Healthlink, MA Climate Action Network, Mass Energy, George M. Woodwell

CAPE WIND WILL NOT REQUIRE DREDGING:

Mark Rodgers
04/15/07 @ 8:19 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
My boat resides in Allen Harbor. The harbor is a beautiful remnant of Old Cape Cod. Yet it is the victim of storms like we are experiencing tonite.

As a result it has experienced a silt buildup which restricts navigation. Many of the larger vessels in the harbor can only navigate at high tide.

A group of harborside landowners asked the State and Town to permit them to dredge the harbor. ALL EXPENSE OF DREDGING TO BE PAID FOR BY THE LANDOWNERS. A permit has not been granted nor is there one considered for the future.

Yet the State of Mass. will rubber stamp a project that does not address the dredging of 24 sq. miles of Nantucket Sound.
04/15/07 @ 11:28 pm
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
neil, I know that one of the worst thing environmentalists want to do is tell rampant consumers how to live. You know America is 5% of the population, uses 25% of the world resources, I'm sure you've heard that often, but it is true. Now China & India are trying to catch up as fast as they can. The consumer rate is racing upwards.

The reality is zero emission mass transit can be built, it is slowed down greatly by attitudes like yours of how all the 'greenies' are chicken littles.

But neil, how do you explain in the crackpot journals how temp's are going up at the same rate of human CO2 production. All the reports trying to disprove this are ripped to shreds by peer reviewed science, you know like when you must have facts to back up a theory.

Range can be easily augmented with recharging stations with wind/solar power. Yes it requires infrastructure, but what travel doesn't?

Join with me to advocate for biodiesel in Cape School buses? Much, much cleaner emissions for kids.
04/16/07 @ 7:10 am
lmc035@gmail.com [Member] writes:
Since only 12 towers are located in less than 12 feet at MLLW, they will have to be installed on the high tides.
04/16/07 @ 10:32 am
neil good [Member] writes:
Sorry Carl but I don’t subscribe to all the ‘Hate America First’ nonsense. Just below is an interesting factoid just for you. From where I stand, it counters ALL the garbage about the USA using a disproportionate amount of the world’s resources.

The info comes from- get this- the English edition of the China Daily.

“…The US for decades has been the planet's "food reserve," the top exporter of wheat, corn and soybeans and the largest single provider of food aid to other nations.”

Have you heard this before Carl? Does it carry any weight with you?

More on Carbon Dioxide, that air-borne plant food, to follow soon.
04/16/07 @ 11:01 am
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
capri, the problem with tides is not insurmountable. A well-timed call to the planet Krypton oughta do the trick. Neil, got that number?
04/16/07 @ 11:17 am
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
If we export food we can use 20% more resources per person?

Uhh.. sure, you've beat me completely with that rationalization.

I love America enough to make sacrifices to help make it a cleaner, more efficient place.

Locally generated energy is the best thing for America to be self sufficient, unless you perfer being so oil dependant that every mideast hiccop squeezes a few more dollars out of our pockets every day.

Things to hate: the rush to war and the couple of trillion it'll cost my grandkids, subsudies to buy SUV's that will not be used in a business, frozen in time MPG standards, the 4.5 billion in taxpayer money to develop eletric cars and fuel cell technology that American car makers killed, all the methods many coperations use to cut costs but increase pollution, Presidents and their lackies who lie so often as if truth were an inconvience, unsustainable forien energy with .20 on the dollar return as opposed to local energy with a 2.60 return in economic activity.
04/16/07 @ 11:35 am
neil good [Member] writes:
Jack, there's a good chance Carl has the phone number in his intergalactic rolodex. I know he has a cape and mask in his wardrobe.
04/16/07 @ 12:27 pm
neil good [Member] writes:
Carl, getting back to your popular- but unproven- story about CO2. Please tell me where I can see these ‘shreds ripped by “peer reviewed science”?

In the meantime, look on-line for-

STATEMENT TO THE COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOV. REFORM, HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, From Roy W. Spencer, Earth System Science Center, Uni. of Alabama, Huntsville. 3/19/07

3.2 Attribution of Current Warmth to Mankind:

“…Some have found it effective to use the close relationship between ice core-inferred temperatures and carbon dioxide variations to imply that we will see similar relationships from anthropogenic CO2 emissions. But this interpretation of ice core data is, at best, controversial. If indeed these measurements are what they are claimed to be (estimates of global temperature and carbon dioxide concentrations), then virtually ALL of the evidence points to the temperature changes LEADING the carbon dioxide changes – NOT the other way around…”
[emp. added]
04/16/07 @ 1:27 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
Glacial ice floes formed the Cape and Islands.

Carl...Why did they melt? Were the Native Americans burning fossil fuel?
04/17/07 @ 11:57 am
Democrant [Member] writes:
As fascinating a read as this has been, ultimately, it would seem that Cape Wind should be held accountable to respond. Is dredging needed, over how much of an area and by what means? Seems a simple thing to ask.
04/17/07 @ 2:58 pm
CCToday [Member] writes:
The developer has answered every question raised here in it's published FEIR and to the MMS - there will be NO dredging, period.
This continuing "insider" chit chat and repetition is annoying to the vast majority of our readers at best and a deliberate obfuscation of the issue at worst.
The Editors politely request that these commenters go elsewhere - after 181 comments, enough is enough.
04/17/07 @ 3:46 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
HELLO!!!

"The developer has answered every question raised here in it's published FEIR and to the MMS - there will be NO dredging, period."

You Have to be kidding. Where have they stated the draft of the construction barges?
04/17/07 @ 3:57 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
CCT...this will be the same as:

Blowing up a mountain in a wilderness sanctuary to get the "GOLD".

Strip Mining for minerals despite the resulting pollution to the environment.

And leaving the resulting scars for the next generation to deal with after the "rich" developers are long gone.

Sad, very sad.
04/17/07 @ 4:51 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
Thanks Capri...I did not want to comment on Cape Wind while we were all trying to deal with the tragedy at Va. Tech. I have children and grandchildren and can't begin to understand how I would react to losing one of them due to a senseless act.

However, CCT took a cheap shot at Jack C's post and said all questions had been answered so would we all go away.

No! One tragedy does not deserve another.
04/17/07 @ 4:52 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
Thanks Capri...I did not want to comment on Cape Wind while we were all trying to deal with the tragedy at Va. Tech. I have children and grandchildren and can't begin to understand how I would react to losing one of them due to a senseless act.

However, CCT took a cheap shot at Jack C's post and said all questions had been answered so would we all go away.

No! One tragedy does not deserve another.
04/17/07 @ 5:03 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
There is another senseless tragedy going on at the moment...and many people on both sides are dying there too.USMC Major General Smedley D. Butler(1881-1940): "Modern wars are manuevered and engineered into existence in order to generate obscene profits for behind-the-scenes corporate manipulators whose sons and daughters never serve or die in those wars."
04/17/07 @ 5:51 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
Sorry for the double comment...I lose my dish reception in bad weather.

bittersweet...I had five Soldiers, three of which were Marines, on charters last year. All served in Iraq. They all said they thought we were doing the right thing. And had volunteered to go back. None were rich, two had been seriously wounded, yet they all said the American people didn't understand the good we were doing.

Capri, Barbara and Neil...thanks for your diligence.
04/18/07 @ 2:34 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
responding to maverick yesterday...Smedley was not saying the soldiers were rich, he was pissed at the war-profiteers who sit back while other men and women fight and die while they reap all the profits (Cheney, Haliburton, Blackwater, etc). His idea was to remove the profit margin from war, and make everyone sacrifice equally. Hasn't it ever crossed your mind to ask, "If this is such a noble cause, why aren't more of the decision-makers kids signing up?" And isn't it despicable that they are now cutting up the oil fields and handing them out to private English and American oil companies? Sure, they throw peanuts out to the native citizens, while making billions for themselves. The motives for going to war should be as honorable as the men and women who fight them. And in this case, it's been all B.S. I'm still wating to find out "Why Iraq?" Oil? most likely...Israel? maybe. Catching Osama Bin Laden? Are you kidding me????
04/18/07 @ 2:57 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
bittersweet...my last charter of 2006 was with a gentlemen who was driving to Logan as soon as he got off the boat.

He was meeting his daughter returning from her second tour of duty in Iraq. I asked why she went back and he said she felt there was unfinished business. They need us badly.

Please explain to me how the U.S. started WW1, WW2, Korean War and the Viet Nam War.

Was N.Y. attacked prior to our involvement in Afghan. and Iraq?

The problem is you don't have the intestinal fortitude of the Roosevelt's,
Churchill's, Truman's, Kennedy's or Bush's.

And that is one of the major problems with this country.
04/18/07 @ 3:04 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
bittersweet... did Kuwait invade Iraq?
04/18/07 @ 4:21 pm
crusader [Member] writes:
Come on, Mav,

We all know that in every war there are profits to be made by our government, whether it be oil, weapons, aircraft, etc. My family members go as far back as WWI and my dad always told me that going to war is always big business.

Protecting our country is one thing--protecting self-interests of these corporations is another.
04/18/07 @ 4:21 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
Capri...you hit the nail on the head. Thanks.

I felt that was their game plan from the beginning.

I am very disappointed that CCT played along with this charade.

Money talks and integrity walks.
04/18/07 @ 4:29 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
Crusader...what big business sponsored the multi attacks on the White House, Pentagon and World Trade Center on 9/11?

Please bring me up to date. Thanks.
04/18/07 @ 5:18 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Dick Cheney didn't have the intestinal fortitude either! He got 7 deferrments because he had "better things to do" than fight for HIS country! Bush? He skipped out on the guard for months, didn't he? He never saw combat. Wolfowitz? no. Rumsfeld? He was too busy poisoning the food supply with apartame when he was head of Monsanto. And these are the men who are sending our kids off to war!!! By the way, my uncle was in Vietman, and he said if there ever was a war, and they called a draft, he's send his two sons to Canada. You gonna call him a coward too? Now, I don't know all the facts, but I have read plenty about it. Read Kevin Phillips book about Bush and his daddy and his daddy. Something to do with the gas that was supplied for the Nazi gas chambers. Big banks apparently fund both sides of war, to make a profit. Check out David Icke website for a lot of facts. Or read Fiasco...or numerous other books. And I know we do a lot of good things in the world, but we do a lot of damage too, and that has to be faced up to if it's ever going to change!
04/18/07 @ 5:34 pm
neil good [Member] writes:
Are you saying you would prefer to have people like Hitler and Saddam remain in power?
04/18/07 @ 5:37 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
I'm saying I don't want Bush and Cheney in there!!@
04/18/07 @ 5:42 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Should I be worried now? There was a story on the news that a Princeton Professor got put on the "No Fly List" because he made a speech criticizing the President. We know that they monitor web-sites...do you think they are looking for people who don't like this administration? Is this paranoid thinking? Maybe, but this is the mind-set they have fostered all in the name of fighting terror. Now I am the enemy! And I love this country just as much as you do.
04/18/07 @ 6:49 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
I am out the door, but I found some facts for you maverick. Google rense, and go to jeff rense program and scroll down to 2 articles by Arnold. He worked for the State Department Counter-Terrorism and Emergency Planning agency, so you can give his opinions some weight. Also read War of Words by Carmichael. These guys say it sooo much better than I, and they express just how many of us feel!
04/18/07 @ 8:06 pm
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
... and this relates to whether Horseshow Shoal will need to be dredged ... how?
04/18/07 @ 10:01 pm
crusader [Member] writes:
Jack,

I give you two very good reasons why you cannot have your wind farm in Nantucket Sound:

Kennedy and Koch. Both have made it very clear they are against the windfarm in Nantucket Sound.

There are many new breakthroughs coming on the horizon with respect to Green Energy. Wind is only one small fraction of the big pie.

It's not happenin' on Nantucket Sound, Jack. That is my opinion.

Tell your buddy Jim Gordon to go dig some holes in the desert.
04/18/07 @ 11:25 pm
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Maybe you're right, Crusader,that Cape Wind won't get built. I'm less confident of it than I was just a month ago. Law of averages dictates that you'll be right eventually.

In response to your question, capri, I have no idea. More than a week has passed since I wrote this blog post, and Cape Wind has still not explained how its turbines can be built without the need for dredging on Horseshoe Shoal. More amazing to me is how Cape Wind apparently does not feel it necessary to address the issue, either in the FEIR or in public forums such as this. Not exactly a model of transparency to legitimate skepticism - from a proponent.
04/19/07 @ 6:42 am
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
Examples of observed climatic changes

* Increase in global average surface temperature of about 1°F in the 20th century
* Decrease of snow cover and sea ice extent and the retreat of mountain glaciers in the latter half of the 20th century
* Rise in global average sea level and the increase in ocean water temperatures
* Likely increase in average precipitation over the middle and high latitudes of the Northern Hemisphere, and over tropical land areas
* Increase in the frequency of extreme precipitation events in some regions of the world

Examples of observed physical and ecological changes

* Thawing of permafrost
* Lengthening of the growing season in middle and high latitudes
* Poleward and upward shift of plant and animal ranges
* Decline of some plant and animal species
* Earlier flowering of trees, emergence of insects, & egg-laying in birds

-Union of concerned scientists

Yes neil, I can cut & paste as well, unlike you, this information is credible.
04/19/07 @ 6:54 am
bittersweet [Member] writes:
P.S Jack-
It relates because terrell Arnold is talking about the secret energy meeting that Cheney had behind closed doors with his secret buddies on how to spend OUR money. And of course, it all relates to OIL, OIL OIL,and how they can cut up the Earth the best for themselves to own maximum power and profit. And wind power is an alternative to using oil.
04/19/07 @ 9:26 am
neil good [Member] writes:
Carl, anyone with a spare $25 can join the Union of Concerned Scientists. No other qualifications are necessary. To find out more about the UCS google

“Journalists' Green Hysteria, originally titled: ‘Journalist' Peddles Green Lies About the Planet's Future”

I see you still have to resort to personal attacks. Look for-

“Global Warming is not due to human contribution of Carbon Dioxide”
By Dr. Timothy Ball, Canadian Free Press, 2/5/07

“Personal attacks are difficult and shouldn't occur in a debate in a civilized society. I can only consider them from what they imply. They usually indicate a person or group is losing the debate”
04/19/07 @ 9:41 am
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Thanks for clarifying that, bittersweet.

In response to your question, capri, no, I'm not interested in doing that. I have no way of knowing for certain, but I doubt this issue is going away, regardless of whether Cape Wind addresses it here or in another media outlet. MMS is unlikely to ignore it entirely in its draft report.
04/19/07 @ 11:30 pm
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Because it's one of those elephant in the room omissions. Fortunately I used to work in the circus.
04/20/07 @ 7:19 am
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
Niel, I am attacking the false information you bring to this debate. I am sorry you believe it.

I try to use my sarcastic humor to point out the absurdities that you present under the guise of 'truth'. If that is attack, bring better facts to the table.

If global warming were'nt even an issue here, (as you claim) a wind farm has researched other benefits in cleaner air, local jobs, more fish, an aid to navigation, prevention of larger dragging, energy independence, savings on health care, stabilizing electric rates, etc..

You claim none of these are true, didn't you even oppose a MET tower going up to collect data? This speaks of supreme denial. You oppose every step, every finding because: You decided before the research was in it was a bad idea.
“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation” Herbert Spencer
04/20/07 @ 9:22 am
neil good [Member] writes:
Carl, please show us where I have brought “false information” to this debate.

On the other hand, remember when you made this incredibly bold claim on 02/26/07?

“There has never been an incident of a wind turbine harming ANYONE! EVER! FACT!”

Paul Gipe’s “Summary of Fatal Accidents in Wind Energy” proves how completely wrong you are. If you had looked before you leaped you could have also found the Caithness Windfarm Information Forum’s “Summary of Wind Turbine Accident data to November 1st 2006”, where it says;

“The wind industry is extremely reluctant to make such data available.”

No wonder.

Carl, I have to say it’s very comical to see you talk about “truth” and the importance of bringing “…better facts to the table.”
04/20/07 @ 10:27 am
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
When Susan Reid, Staff Attorney of the Conservation Law Foundation, includes “dredging” as an action to be taken by Cape Wind in her 3/22/07 letter to Secretary Bowles regarding the Cape Wind FEIR; there is sufficient reason to consider that dredging would be required by Cape Wind. As a public interest advocacy organization, and prominent group of lawyers, you would think that CLF would acknowledge the need for federal and state permits as they include dredging without reference to the required permits in their letter to Secretary Bowles.

Senator Kennedy has also states that Cape Wind would require dredging.

Citizen watchdogs are the backbone of the environmental movement. We can ask Susan Reid of Conservation Law Foundation why her letter of 3/27 to State Secretary Ian Bowles includes under “Water Quality” “dredging” but does not address the required federal and state permits for dredging. Citizens should ask Attorney Susan Reid of CLF if Cape Wind has filed for the required dredging permits. sreid@clf.org
04/20/07 @ 4:31 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
What is dredging, and why is it so bad? Is it any worse than the horrid globs of black smoke that spew out of these fossil-fuel plants?
04/20/07 @ 4:47 pm
neil good [Member] writes:
CCToday staffers- what happened to the "Ten Question's" story on the Tasty Politics Blog? It was on-line for most of the day and now it is gone- comments and all. A very interesting debate was just getting underway.
04/20/07 @ 4:59 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
capri-
But you're saying "we know cancer's bad, but we're going to stick with it anyway!"
04/20/07 @ 5:29 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
How do you know this?
04/20/07 @ 5:40 pm
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
neil, do you blame the gun that killed VT students or the killer, or the flawed background check?

I blame the killer. Without him, those people are still alive. Burning fossil fuels not only kills, but creates sickness, disease, & war in it's wake.

Again, if you fell off a building, was it gravity that killed you, was it the building, or was it carelessness. Getting electrocuted while working with any equipment is not having enough information, or being safe enough. I agree that a wind turbine falling on someone is a case of wind power danger, so yes, in extraordinary cases you can say wind power has a risk.

Use of fossil fuels, in the manner prescribed, has killed millions. When you say wind power is dangerous, you travel far into the absurd.

Capri, if you had read my posts at the start of this debate, I have stated that if massive dredging is required, I don't believe those 12 should or will be built. I believe they'll find a way w/o dredging.

We will see.
04/20/07 @ 6:26 pm
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
Neil, it just came to me, are you a petrol bigot? I mean are you the kind of person that believes in the intrinsic value of oil derived culture being better than clean renewables. Furthermore, do you assert your right to oppress clean renewable energy on the basis that your superior energy form need give up some of its market share despite overwhelming evidence of fossil fuel based actions having disastrous present & long term consequences?

Are you this person?

I mean I heard there were still people who believed in their heart the Iraq war was a good war for the right reasons, (not oil of course) but I never imagined there would be one on Cape Cod.

Bet you could take gold in the denial Olympics. I mean if all this is true, the oil elitism-bigotry stuff.

Neil, just let me tell you, environmentalists of the world are starting 12 step programs to get off oil dependency, you can cry hypocrite only so long before you're the last one in the smelly side of the pool.
04/20/07 @ 6:31 pm
neil good [Member] writes:
Carl, if those fossil fuels are so evil and kill millions, when can we expect to see you renounce fossil fuels entirely from your day-to-day life?

I suspect you have driven your own car or truck up to this point? Will you send it to the crusher to prove you are truly serious about eliminating fossil fuels?

Maybe you rely on other people for rides. If so, I hope you’ve offered to help pay for their ‘evil/killer’ gasoline. Will you now walk or bicycle everywhere you need to go?

How is your home heated? By fossil fuels maybe? Can you switch over to wood or solar heat 100% year round? Or do you heat with electricity? Can you trust wind power to always be there when you need it? I mean, that is if you can bring yourself to disconnect from the “evil” fossil fuel and nuclear powered electric grid.

Carl, I never said wind power was dangerous. You said “…there has never been an incident of a wind turbine harming ANYONE! EVER! FACT!” We now know how wrong- and absurd- you can be. :)
04/20/07 @ 7:47 pm
bobcat87 [Member] writes:
What did happen to the Ten Questions story?
04/20/07 @ 11:45 pm
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
Neil, if all goes to plan, I'll be off grid in 2 years. My friends are investing in a biodiesel processing plant, I just helped install a small wind turbine at Race Point Light house off P-town to go with existing solar panels & a biodiesel backup generator.
I've joined my church's efforts @ what many church's are doing, called the green sanctuaries.
Yes Niel, I've admitted that one of my statements is only 99.99% accurate, if your complaints are such a broken record of sophomoric accusations, well, I guess I'm a little disappointed.
Guess you'll go off & find some website to cut & paste studies on how trying to do carbon neutral life style changes is all a trick by junk scientists to make us viciously recycle more and destroy the American way of life.

Argue hard enough for your faults and they are yours, work hard enough for your dreams and they can become real.

I'm sorry if living a renewable/sustainable/clean life is perturbing you. Sad, very sad.
04/21/07 @ 7:48 am
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
I believe cape wind will be built. If a massive amount of dredging is needed, I am against the building of the 12 turbines. I don't think it will be an issue to build the 12. I don't think CW would NOT build the other 118 just because of the 12.

We will see.

I believe this non-issue is just the last in the opposition's long line of non-issues.
04/21/07 @ 9:04 am
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
I'm delighted to report that someone has taken me up on my wager - Mark Rodgers of Cape Wind.
04/21/07 @ 9:37 am
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
Mark Rodgers is a taker.

As he considers dredging "beyond the realm of possibility" and not needed for this project.

Repeating your terms, Jack:

This wager, "of one dollar with odds of, say, 1,000 to 1? If I lose, I will gladly pay $1 to any and all people willing to accept this wager. And if they lose, they each pay me $1,000."

Is the preponderance of evidence or the completion of the project going to determine the winner here?

If it’s preponderance,,, Was Staff Attorney Susan Reid of Conservation Law Foundation in her letter to State Secretary Ian Bowles on the Cape Wind FEIR 3/33/07 misspeaking when she included “dredging” as an action to be undertaken by Cape Wind? Was Senator Ted Kennedy misspeaking when he said that Cape Wind would require dredging?

May the best man win!
04/21/07 @ 9:53 am
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
correction,,, date in my previous comment, CLF letter of 3/22/07 to State Secretary Ian Bowles. thanks
04/21/07 @ 10:26 am
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
In response to capri and barbaradurkin, Mark said in an email to me that he won't be responding here. Whether Cape Wind clarifies the issue beyond this forum remains unclear to me. Mark's willingness to take me up on the wager constitutes something more tangible than repeated assertions that dredging won't be necessary. This is a wager I'd be quite happy to lose.
04/21/07 @ 10:58 am
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
In a couple of ways, capri. If the project doesn't get permitted, the wager becomes moot. If MMS issues a permit and the wind farm is built with or without dredging, that would decide it. And as you've pointed out, what I referred to here is whether dredging would be needed for construction barges and tugs, not to lay cable. I see that as a separate issue.

As for how or whether Cape Wind will address this, I don't know, nor do I wish to become a middleman in answering for them. With all due respect to Cape Wind, the burden is on them to address a legitimate question. As anyone reading through these comments is aware, I'm not the only supporter with doubts about this. A query about dredging has morphed into uncertainty about Cape Wind's credibility.
04/21/07 @ 3:48 pm
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
Susan Reid, Staff Attorney of the Conservation Law Foundation, includes “dredging” as an action to be taken by Cape Wind in her letter to Secretary Bowles. Mark Rodger’s position is that Attorney Reid is incorrect as her comments include “dredging” to Secretary Bowles on the Cape Wind FEIR.

There is no interagency liaison that tracks Cape Wind’s performance as an applicant. NE USFWS Michael Bartlett’s scoping comments on the Cape Wind project included a request for a performance time line schedule to be imposed on Cape Wind under NEPA. Cape Wind has been non-responsive to this federal regulatory agency’s request for information ongoing for four years.

Mark Rodger’s may very well be confident in Cape Wind’s ability to circumvent the legal procedural process and dredge without required permits due to this lacking oversight.
Or would Cape Wind “discover” the reasonably anticipated requirement for dredging if this project is permitted and construction is ever underway? And plead hardship, self-imposed?
04/21/07 @ 6:35 pm
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Neil, you are off the mark with your claims as to what Mark Rodgers said about global warming in his debate last June with Charles Vinick.
04/21/07 @ 8:42 pm
neil good [Member] writes:
Please enlighten everyone Jack. Did you find out who was taping the debate that night? It would be interesting to listen to a copy of the recording. Maybe you can look into that for us.

I’d like to ask Carl- how do you demonstrate your total distain for fossil fuels besides ranting on and on about them here? Do you regularly take public transportation, walk or ride a bicycle? Or would that simply be too inconvenient for you? You drive your own car don’t you? And about that two year plan of yours to get off the grid- I guess it must not be a priority. Carl, you remind me of the Greenpeace anti-fossil fuel ‘activist’ who just shrugged his shoulders, smirked, and said, “What do you expect us to do?”, when I asked if he could see how ridiculous it was to ‘wage war’ on fossil fuel, and the Exxon-Mobil Corp, while he and his crew motored around in a huge diesel powered ship.
04/22/07 @ 6:54 pm
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Neil, I know of at least two people who recorded the debate that night, and I'm one of them. Over the last couple of days I've listened to most of the tape, not all the way through yet, and at no point have I heard Mark Rodgers say what you attribute to him. Is this the quote you are referring to? - "Cape Wind single-handedly will not solve global warming, but the only way humanity will is if communities around the world do everything they can to reduce their impacts from energy use."
04/25/07 @ 10:43 am
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Thank you, capri, I appreciate that.

Neil, I've listened to the tape of the debate all the way through, and here is what Mark Rodgers said in his closing statement, which comes closest to the claims as to what he said.

In describing local impacts from global warming, such as higher homeowners insurance costs and waterfront houses left vulnerable by erosion of beaches, Rodgers said - "We agree, Cape Wind doesn't solve that problem. But Cape Wind will help accelerate a whole new generation of clean, offshore renewable energy technologies that, globally, can and will provide a meaningful contribution to solving this incredibly important problem, and it is urgent, and we need to start doing it now."

A far cry from this quote you attributed to Rodgers in your comment posted here on 4/13 at 10:15 a.m. - "I agree with Charles [Vinick], Cape Wind will have no affect (sic) on global warming."
04/25/07 @ 11:31 am
neil good [Member] writes:
I appreciate the time you’ve put into this Jack. I am just as interested in accuracy as you are. I’m not questioning your report. I would like to accept your offer to let me convert the recording to an audio file. I’ll post the entire debate online one way or another. If you can make it tonight to the ‘new’ debate at 4C’s, maybe you can bring the old tape. Scout’s honor- I’ll return it. If you’d like me to, I’ll bring a few blank tapes for you. Maybe a recording of tonight’s debate can go online too.
04/25/07 @ 12:06 pm
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
I'm not worried about you returning it, Neil. Wish I could bring it to the debate tonight but I'm working and can't attend. Send me your address, to polnotes@yahoo.com, and I'll drop the tape in the mail. Good idea about taping tonight's debate too.

capri, you're not going to believe this but my laptop also crashed a couple of weeks ago. Fortunately most of what was on it was backed up on a PC.
05/13/07 @ 6:21 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
Here is proof dredging needed to be done before GE/Airtricity could build two of the seven turbines off Arklow Bank, Ireland- [same turbines Cape Wind plans to use in N. Sound.]

http://www.fiveoceansservices.com/content/projects/index.html

http://www.fiveoceansservices.com/content/projects/offshoreWindParks/arklowBankOffshoreWindFarm/index.html

"Five Oceans Services was also awarded the scour protection works for the wind farm, which it has been performing simultaneously with the lowering of J-tubes."

"Additionally on behalf of our Client, Five Oceans Services dredged and maintained a channel, amounting to over 100,000 m³, to enable the windmill construction subcontractor access to two of the turbine locations."
05/18/07 @ 3:59 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
"On Cape, gales of hypocrisy
Boston Globe Op/Ed
Thursday, May 17, 2007

...Meanwhile, the one large-scale wind project that could significantly reduce the Cape's dependence on electricity generated by fossil fuels and nuclear power continues to grind through an epic permitting process, which so far has not turned up any significantly negative environmental impacts"

I received this email from Cape Wind today. Would someone please tell me what studies have been completed that prove there would be no significant environmental impact to Nantucket Sound.

As Dona T. said to me " Off shore wind farms have just not been around long enough and the studies by independent scientists over the long term have simply not been done. "
05/18/07 @ 4:12 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
oops...Horseshoe Shoals
05/18/07 @ 4:23 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
bittersweet...MMS probably finally realized dredging would be required and if not dealt with would result in more law suits than are already coming down the road.

They are probably trying to come up with a spin on dredging that like " Agent Orange " it is harmless. And that's why two of my buddies that spread that crap in Viet Nam have been six feet under for the last ten years.
05/19/07 @ 9:18 am
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
Horn's rev research, Nystead, audibon society (3 years), Army corp of engineers, Harvard medical research school, do you need more?

Fishermen in Denmark report no reduction of fishing stocks, opposition groups in Denmark before the building of the windfarms have disbanded.

Goerge Woodwell would be glad to supply you with reams of data supporting a Nantucket sound wind farm.

You can consult Charles Kleeclamp on clean air data.

Need more?

Maverick, every time there is a chance at public debate the alliance just shouts their propaganda with NO science to back it up. They refuse direct debate knowing their stands are designed to incite emotional responses.

Walter Cronkite finally saw through it saying "He had been used."

Everyday people are asking the tough questions you and the alliance don't have real answers to.

We have real life examples that answer the real life issues, you just choose to ignor them.
05/19/07 @ 10:58 am
neil good [Member] writes:
Carl, you claim, “…opposition groups in Denmark before the building of the windfarms have disbanded.”

You are wrong- again- Carl. Look for http://www.visigernej.dk/

Rough translation-

“It is not just in Kappeln that the inhabitants are opponents of large mills. Everywhere all around the country there are human beings that fight against the giant-mills. Storstrøms Amt calls the mills near Kappeln: "Ungraceful, dominant, disharmonious.” For us it is not just local interests that are at stake… We are deeply worried for the influence this huge project can have on human beings, landscapes, animals and nature on most of Vestlolland. Never before has anything corresponding been seen on the farm land in Denmark.”
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