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:: Friday, July 3rd, 2009Politics Etc.
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Meet John Kerry, soon to be former senator
09/19/07 · 9:15 am :: posted by Jack Coleman
A suggestion to any Democrats still grieving John Kerry's narrow loss to George W. Bush in 2004 - watch the YouTube videos of University of Florida police who tasered a student yesterday asking awkward questions of an elected official - and Kerry's feeble bleating in response.
How many other people were reminded of Mick Jagger reacting along the same lines after Hells Angels hired by the Rolling Stones for security at Altamont in December 1969 killed a concert-goer in view of the stage.
The analogy is not a casual one. Altamont, a fitting epitaph for the '60s and its wrenching violence, drugs and madness, took place only 18 months prior to Kerry becoming a public figure when he testified before Congress in April 1971, a veteran clad in camouflage protesting the Vietnam War.
"How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake," Kerry asked, a question that has hung over every American military intervention since. Thirteen years later, I voted for Kerry when he first ran for Senate, my vote based almost entirely on that question.
This isn't the first time Kerry has backed down when confronted with a defining moment. In the 2004 campaign when Swift Boat veterans accused Kerry of inflating his war record, he chose to go windsurfing before belatedly trying to refute the claims.
When it comes to the Cape Wind project, proposed for the waters of Nantucket Sound where Kerry so enjoys recreation, Kerry remains virtually the only person in the state he represents without an opinion on the matter. He's still awaiting that final environmental report from the federal government. And once it's released, mark my words, Kerry will still find a way to play Hamlet, lest he incur the wrath of Ted Kennedy's Claudius.
Many Vietnam veterans remain angry at Kerry for maligning them as babykillers when he testified before Congress in 1971. Last year Kerry succeeded in alienating yet another generation of soldiers by "joking" that they were too dumb to avoid military service in Iraq. The uproar prompted Kerry to announce he was not running for president in 2008. By then only two people in America thought he had a prayer of winning - Kerry and the second of the two very wealthy women he's married.
With his latest example of shrinkage, Kerry has made himself more vulnerable than ever as he runs for re-election next year. Kerry could once count on solid backing from soldiers and veterans - his "band of brothers" - if only because he'd actually served in Vietnam, in marked contrast to the stateside National Guard stints and deferments of Bush the younger, Quayle, Cheney, etc.
Kerry could also once count on support from college students, who tend to vote overwhelmingly Democratic anyway and saw in him an iconic figure of distant dissent. No longer - Kerry's lost them both, and with them any chance of genuine influence in politics.
If the man had a clue he'd announce within months he's not seeking re-election and spare us his windy exhortations on this and that. But he won't because Kerry is clueless, as this latest episode further confirms.
My advice to Bay State Republicans as they gear up to challenge him - put up a fight and maybe this former warrior will show up.
(photo credit, Granitegrok.com)
130 comments
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Dennis [Member] writes:
Why couldn't Kerry bring himself to say, "I want the police to stop that"?
What a worthless, wishy-washy wimp !
What a worthless, wishy-washy wimp !
deltaman [Member] writes:
Bravo, Jack - from a Dem who also got snookered! (Actually, my vote was more a foolish act of desperation… Sigh)
Go-ahead & run - might be fun for us to say we knew ya when; &, jes' mebbe next time, I won't be feeling such a strong urge to hug the porcelain on that November morning-after! (Pleases save an inauguration ticket for me; I do a way-funny imitation of a Republican!)
Go-ahead & run - might be fun for us to say we knew ya when; &, jes' mebbe next time, I won't be feeling such a strong urge to hug the porcelain on that November morning-after! (Pleases save an inauguration ticket for me; I do a way-funny imitation of a Republican!)
CCToday [Member] writes:
Jeff Beatty, an Air Force combat helicopter pilot from Harwich, is running against Kerry for the US Senate from Massachusetts in November of 2008.
Democrant [Member] writes:
Meanwhile, back at the facts.... It seems there is certainly some indication that the kid was looking for a confrontation specifically to be videotaped:
http://www.bluemassgroup.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=8696
and
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/
articles/2007/09/18/florida_student_arrested_tasered_at_kerry_forum/
(Editor's note: above link has been split apart to fit page dimensions. Remove spaces making link one line for it to work.)
Kerry can certainly be criticized for the poor response to the Swifties, however saying he chose to go windsurfing rather than respond, paints an entirely false impression. The Swifties came on the scene in about May of 2004, which would have been the time to deal with that forcefully. Really, windsurfing has no point there, other than to parrot GOP talking points.
I remember how well Bill Weld beat Kerry also in '96 ;). Second, the GOP would have to find a credible candidate, with big money. Third, it is a presidential election year, with a guaranteed higher and more Democratic turnout. And fourth, while polls show Kerry as more vulnerable, that's when you have no one running against him to compare him against.
http://www.bluemassgroup.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=8696
and
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/
articles/2007/09/18/florida_student_arrested_tasered_at_kerry_forum/
(Editor's note: above link has been split apart to fit page dimensions. Remove spaces making link one line for it to work.)
Kerry can certainly be criticized for the poor response to the Swifties, however saying he chose to go windsurfing rather than respond, paints an entirely false impression. The Swifties came on the scene in about May of 2004, which would have been the time to deal with that forcefully. Really, windsurfing has no point there, other than to parrot GOP talking points.
I remember how well Bill Weld beat Kerry also in '96 ;). Second, the GOP would have to find a credible candidate, with big money. Third, it is a presidential election year, with a guaranteed higher and more Democratic turnout. And fourth, while polls show Kerry as more vulnerable, that's when you have no one running against him to compare him against.
deltaman [Member] writes:
I don't find it particularly hard to hold both views simultaneously - The kid was deliberately attempting to provoke, then escalate this incident AND Kerry acted like a woos throughout…
My follow-up Q, is when can I expect my OWN links in comments to be tolerated by "The Editors?"
(P-l-e-e-e-s-e, don't Taser me!!!)
;)
My follow-up Q, is when can I expect my OWN links in comments to be tolerated by "The Editors?"
(P-l-e-e-e-s-e, don't Taser me!!!)
;)
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Ah, ever the party apparachnik, Democrant, hence your choice of appellation. It wasn't until August 2004, with publication of the book "Unfit for Command," that the Swift Boat veterans became widely known and their allegations a problem for John Kerry. If you want to claim that Kerry responded promptly and effectively to their charges, by all means. As I recall, Kerry went windsurfing.
As for the student involved in the incident "looking for a confrontation," something tells me you'd be singing a different tune had it been Cheney in the room instead of Kerry.
As for the student involved in the incident "looking for a confrontation," something tells me you'd be singing a different tune had it been Cheney in the room instead of Kerry.
maverick [Member] writes:
Jack C...we don't always agree but you are on target here.
Kerry is a fraud. A very rich fraud.
And democrant can't see the forest for the trees.
He probably supports another loser " Patches " in R.I.
His motto " if it looks like a donkey vote for it ".
Kerry is a fraud. A very rich fraud.
And democrant can't see the forest for the trees.
He probably supports another loser " Patches " in R.I.
His motto " if it looks like a donkey vote for it ".
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Thanks, Maverick, on this we agree. I'm not saying the kid wasn't looking to cause a scene, it looks like he was. But to subdue him with tasers for his actions ...?
Best suggestion on how police could have defused the situation came today from Peter Manso - let the kid drone on, the other students will eventually respond with boos, and then louder boos, and the obnoxious student will get the message. Much more effective than tasers.
Best suggestion on how police could have defused the situation came today from Peter Manso - let the kid drone on, the other students will eventually respond with boos, and then louder boos, and the obnoxious student will get the message. Much more effective than tasers.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
That's a joke! Cheney wouldn't be caught dead with any of "the people" unless they had a six-figure income or higher. And this whole tasering thing is evil. Maybe someone should look up the origins of it. Tasering, wire-tapping, web-tapping...we the people are becoming the target and the enemy of the government. And as those justice department lawyers found out, if you don't tow the line, you're outta there!
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Just saw your comment, deltaman - LOL - thanks!
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Makow - Student Tasering
Smacks Of Psy-Op
By Henry Makow PhD
9-19-7
The tasering of University of Florida student Andrew Meyer 21, Tuesday looks like a B.F. Skinner experiment designed to let the mice know they will receive a painful shock if they raise sensitive political subjects in public.
On the other hand, if they are supportive, as the students who cheered when Meyer was dragged away, they will continue to get their food and sex.
Smacks Of Psy-Op
By Henry Makow PhD
9-19-7
The tasering of University of Florida student Andrew Meyer 21, Tuesday looks like a B.F. Skinner experiment designed to let the mice know they will receive a painful shock if they raise sensitive political subjects in public.
On the other hand, if they are supportive, as the students who cheered when Meyer was dragged away, they will continue to get their food and sex.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Increasingly we are tasked with the question: How much of this nonsense will we put up with? Are we men or are we mice? -----
Democrant [Member] writes:
Jack- it would help to actually read what I write. Why would you say I would want to claim Kerry responded "promptly and effectively", when I specifically said Kerry could be criticized? And thanks for agreeing further down, it looks like the kid was looking for a confrontation. It will be determined whether the police acted appropriately. I really wouldn't care whether it happened at a Cheney speech, as the policies pushed by Cheney have killed and wounded far more Americans than one attention seeking college student. Talk about misplaced outrage.
Diana [Member] writes:
I saw the video and the tasering was uncalled for. There were 4 or 5 cops and one kid waving a book around. His question was never answered - what was JK's involvement in Skull & Bones - the club that unites him and George Bush. This is an interesting blog. JK's pic is definately smo fuggly - looks like he just returned from a night at Captain whoosiwhatsit bar.
Solon [Member] writes:
Kerry who? Color him gone. His clock has run out.
Get ready for his replacement--a former Delta Force, CIA and FBI Hostage Rescue Team Operative--exactly what we need in this time of crisis while the hopeless, eys wide shut weenies in Congress and the ankle-biting presidential candidates in both parties put us to sleep with their silly bickering.
More to come.
Get ready for his replacement--a former Delta Force, CIA and FBI Hostage Rescue Team Operative--exactly what we need in this time of crisis while the hopeless, eys wide shut weenies in Congress and the ankle-biting presidential candidates in both parties put us to sleep with their silly bickering.
More to come.
Democrant [Member] writes:
Solon... you mean the guy that got 30% of the vote against Delahunt?
Diana [Member] writes:
This guy sounds too good to be true, who is he?
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Fair enough, Democrant, you did acknowledge that Kerry "can certainly be criticized" for his sluggish response to the Swift Boat vets. Not that you'd ever level such a criticism yourself, but you can see where others might. Thanks for clarifying that.
As for "misplaced outrage" - heaping more scorn on Bush and Cheney than on bin Laden and his cult of death, as Democrats are inclined to do - that's misplaced outrage.
This war didn't begin with Bush, its modern incarnation began at Munich in 1972, scene of an earlier surrender by the West in 1938 to another band of anti-Semitic totalitarian thugs. Then as now, it took a few more years for some people to recognize that the threat was real and couldn't be ignored or shrugged off.
As for "misplaced outrage" - heaping more scorn on Bush and Cheney than on bin Laden and his cult of death, as Democrats are inclined to do - that's misplaced outrage.
This war didn't begin with Bush, its modern incarnation began at Munich in 1972, scene of an earlier surrender by the West in 1938 to another band of anti-Semitic totalitarian thugs. Then as now, it took a few more years for some people to recognize that the threat was real and couldn't be ignored or shrugged off.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
I think at that time Bin-Laden was working for us, wasn't he?
deltaman [Member] writes:
Jack, my recall of history is considerably fuzzed up by having stared out the classroom windows a lot. Still, my impoverished understanding of the seeds for your "war" really were planted by early cave dwellers who realized that their immoderate habits were making them run low on firewood long before winter's cold had departed, so they took to preying on their more-prudent, but weaker neighbors. "Its modern incarnation" as I can see it, began when the oil barons of the 19th & 20th centuries undertook similar practices, to fuel the industrial revolution which was spreading out from the USA. (&, please don' call me Delta-Osama, OK)?
;)
;)
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Yay deltaman!!!!! You get an A+ for that!!!
bittersweet [Member] writes:
ps: I was just cleaning out the toilet, and Lynyrd Skynyrd's "ooh ooh that smell" was on the radio. Too funny.
deltaman [Member] writes:
Yeah, B'sweet - & I'm cookin' dinner - so thanx 4' not gettin' graphic!
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Life is just a bowl of cherries, isn't it? Sometimes it gives you just what you need.....a good laugh!
deltaman [Member] writes:
"B" - just asked you NOT to get graphic, didn't I?
bittersweet [Member] writes:
You're funny d-man.
wôpanâshqâ [Member] writes:
Does no one use email anymore??? just curious.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
capewindgirl@yahoo.com
Sorry for that wopanashqa....I got carried away!!!
Sorry for that wopanashqa....I got carried away!!!
deltaman [Member] writes:
Oh, wô is me; I feel a bite in the wind, & will tend to that detail soon…
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Can't say I see the resemblance, deltaman, but maybe that's just me.
Your theory of history is a secular version of it starting with Adam and Eve (or Cain and Abel). Look back at what I wrote - I referred to the "modern incarnation" the war we are in, starting as of 1972 with a watershed event in the history of terrorism, the massacre of Israeli Olympic athletes by Palestinian guerrillas. If you'd rather cite the starting point as the Crusades or the first caveman to hit another with a rock, by all means. But all you're doing is engaging in obfuscation.
Gotta hand it to those predatory oil barons, making countless billionaires out of Arabs they've bought so much oil from. And the rest of us too for that matter. All those people who see on the roads next time you go driving - predators all. We could just steal the Arabs' oil with our immense military might, but no, we have to go and buy it instead. Think of how cheap it would be if we substituted theft for commerce!
Your theory of history is a secular version of it starting with Adam and Eve (or Cain and Abel). Look back at what I wrote - I referred to the "modern incarnation" the war we are in, starting as of 1972 with a watershed event in the history of terrorism, the massacre of Israeli Olympic athletes by Palestinian guerrillas. If you'd rather cite the starting point as the Crusades or the first caveman to hit another with a rock, by all means. But all you're doing is engaging in obfuscation.
Gotta hand it to those predatory oil barons, making countless billionaires out of Arabs they've bought so much oil from. And the rest of us too for that matter. All those people who see on the roads next time you go driving - predators all. We could just steal the Arabs' oil with our immense military might, but no, we have to go and buy it instead. Think of how cheap it would be if we substituted theft for commerce!
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Haven't they done that already?
deltaman [Member] writes:
Jack,
"Think of how cheap it would be if we substituted theft for commerce?" pretty-much sums-up the 1st hundred years of pumping oil; was only after we stupidly let some of 'em into our universities that the started gettin' uppity! (Hmm… am I talkin' 'bout Arabs or Indians, here?)
"Think of how cheap it would be if we substituted theft for commerce?" pretty-much sums-up the 1st hundred years of pumping oil; was only after we stupidly let some of 'em into our universities that the started gettin' uppity! (Hmm… am I talkin' 'bout Arabs or Indians, here?)
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Really, deltaman - and how do you explain the vast wealth accumulated by Arab nations in the same period, seeing how they produce little of value but oil?
deltaman [Member] writes:
Not to be deliberately sloppy on dates, Jack but I think that we pretty-much placated & distracted the nomads with firearms with which to wage war on each-other…'til the late 1920's , when they realized that we really weren't after their sand, after all.
Meanwhile, back in the good ol' USA, - after a benevolent government had relocated most surviving remnants of native american tribes, to the most-barren, forsaken dirtpiles we could find in the southwest - well,lo & behold; oil was discovered underneath 'em, so we had to go thru all the bother of relocating most of 'em, to some-other rockpiles - Jeesh, wotta bunch of ungrateful crybabies THEY turned-out to be!
(If this thread continues, it ain't 'bout history, imo)
Meanwhile, back in the good ol' USA, - after a benevolent government had relocated most surviving remnants of native american tribes, to the most-barren, forsaken dirtpiles we could find in the southwest - well,lo & behold; oil was discovered underneath 'em, so we had to go thru all the bother of relocating most of 'em, to some-other rockpiles - Jeesh, wotta bunch of ungrateful crybabies THEY turned-out to be!
(If this thread continues, it ain't 'bout history, imo)
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Oh I get it, everything comes back to crimes against humanity involving Native Americans. Are you able to make the leap to other subjects or is that pretty much it?
deltaman [Member] writes:
Jack, this blog page has accommodated discussion on a wide range of subjects, & I weighed-in on several, where I foolishly thought I had something unique to offer… Since the page was spawned shortly after 9AM, & ranged widely thru the day, I can understand how you might be kinda winded & forgetful by now - Take a nap! (I'm about to…)
Hugs & sweet dreams!
Hugs & sweet dreams!
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Seems to me you've got it backwards, deltaman, you're the one who's gotten winded. Nighty night.
deltaman [Member] writes:
(meant to say "thru two days" - sorry!
(durn, never cn find an editor when I need one…)
(durn, never cn find an editor when I need one…)
Diana [Member] writes:
The origins of violence is a great topic for discussion - it's great to read all that has been written here. I think it is important to note we wipped out most of the N. American Indians who settled here before us, and some historians do believe much of related genoicide was justified as a result. How can we know the truth - who was there, Wounded Knee speaks volumes. We know the A. Indians had little in the way of arms, so they were at a loss. All in all I feel we owe them. What the early settlers did was out of survival, they needed a place to live as did the Indians and they won the fight. But today, we have evolved into more conscience humans, capable of reparation. Man's inhumanity to man goes backwards in time to the very beginning. Our legacy should be one of progression from clubs and stones. Even the head of Iran who wants to come and place a wreath on ground zero said he wants peace, in so many words. I think peace is better than war.
deltaman [Member] writes:
Wish you'd jiump-in more often Di - Thanx!
I have to admit having serious mistrust for Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's motives, but to move even a small chance for peace forward I wish we'd given him the chance (just, no photo-op!)
I have to admit having serious mistrust for Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's motives, but to move even a small chance for peace forward I wish we'd given him the chance (just, no photo-op!)
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Diana--Here's a different take on it. From a guy named John Hanks, in an article called "Crooks, Suckers and Lazy Cowards"
"Since liberals can’t allow themselves to develop hatred, they prefer to develop a culture of peace. The problem with this is that the only real peace is the peace of the grave. Otherwise peace is just a period when crooks set up the next war."
He says that what you really need to develop is a cold,sharp hatred in order to defeat these crooks.
Kind of cynical, but hate is the flip side of love.
"Since liberals can’t allow themselves to develop hatred, they prefer to develop a culture of peace. The problem with this is that the only real peace is the peace of the grave. Otherwise peace is just a period when crooks set up the next war."
He says that what you really need to develop is a cold,sharp hatred in order to defeat these crooks.
Kind of cynical, but hate is the flip side of love.
deltaman [Member] writes:
B'sweet, I suspect that you've coming-off a tuff couple of days, but isn't it possible that apathy is the flip-side of love, and fear is the flip side of hate? (I really need my life to be nuanced & multidimensional.)
Been missin' ya, but got th' email, so watch-out! (Yer such a blurt…)
Been missin' ya, but got th' email, so watch-out! (Yer such a blurt…)
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Yes, I can go for that too deltaman, but here's what he said;
The only way to counter demoralization, which is the stock and trade of the filth, is to cultivate a black and intelligent hatred. Anger is an exhausting weakness and just an expression of demoralization. But, hatred is an instinctual reaction to those who would like to kill you. Republicans are full of hatred because they know that liberals would like to revoke their license to steal. That is why they don’t have to think except in terms of slogans.
The world has a minority of crooks and their suckers. The rest of the world just a bunch of lazy cowards.
I know it sounds harsh, but it's kind of what you said too, at least regarding the apathy part. And when we see something like someone being tasered,and we just sit there...or cheer!? what is that?
The only way to counter demoralization, which is the stock and trade of the filth, is to cultivate a black and intelligent hatred. Anger is an exhausting weakness and just an expression of demoralization. But, hatred is an instinctual reaction to those who would like to kill you. Republicans are full of hatred because they know that liberals would like to revoke their license to steal. That is why they don’t have to think except in terms of slogans.
The world has a minority of crooks and their suckers. The rest of the world just a bunch of lazy cowards.
I know it sounds harsh, but it's kind of what you said too, at least regarding the apathy part. And when we see something like someone being tasered,and we just sit there...or cheer!? what is that?
deltaman [Member] writes:
Hmm… I'm embarrassingly fond of this guy's ideas, but I wouldn't want to be in the same room with him, with the lights out…
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Especially if you were George Bush or Dick Cheney!
bittersweet [Member] writes:
My kid's kicking me out.....so, till tomorrow I geuss. ps: thanks for cheering me up d-man.
Diana [Member] writes:
I think it's desensitizing - what our media has done and what we have allowed it to do. Hatred, for me, is a kind of weakness. From studying buddhism and talking about the issue of love vs hate - it is always easier to feel hate and walk away. And I think our knee jerk reaction to any Middle East leader is one of hatred and fear, but what if we let that go and try to put out a hand of trust - maybe we'll get trust and an alliance. Maybe after careful thought, and you can see this is a thoughtful man, he has decided he wants peace, he wants to pay hommage and ask for forgiveness for his part. I think most of the terrorists who boarded the planes
were from Saudi Arabia. And how will we ever really know what happened.
Solution to conflict is peace, regardless of whether or not the hand of the "other" is a honest hand, it's the gesture that counts.
were from Saudi Arabia. And how will we ever really know what happened.
Solution to conflict is peace, regardless of whether or not the hand of the "other" is a honest hand, it's the gesture that counts.
deltaman [Member] writes:
Odd, Diana; while I find those thoughts more-disquieting than Bittersweet's quotes from John Hanks, I'd still pick you over him, to be alone in the dark with…
Seriously, I didn't exactly get the "easier to feel hate & walk away" part - did you mean metaphorically, like feeling hate then "turning-off?"
Seriously, I didn't exactly get the "easier to feel hate & walk away" part - did you mean metaphorically, like feeling hate then "turning-off?"
Diana [Member] writes:
No, it is easier when faced with a conflict to feel hate. Try it next time you get mad at someone. The buddhist exercise is to breathe in the other persons hatred, negative energy and to breathe out peace and good energy. It goes a little deeper than that - but there is a lot of truism in the concept.
Sometimes, I agree, to find a common ground is impossible and best to just walk away.
Sometimes, I agree, to find a common ground is impossible and best to just walk away.
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
I disagree with you, Diana. The solution to conflict isn't peace; that's the opposite of conflict. The solution to conflict is justice, as the bumper sticker suggests - no justice, no peace.
Justice, or a sense of fairness, is universal and innate. That's why children grasp it so quickly. The absence of justice virtually guarantees conflict for those inflicting it.
Justice, or a sense of fairness, is universal and innate. That's why children grasp it so quickly. The absence of justice virtually guarantees conflict for those inflicting it.
deltaman [Member] writes:
OK, Di, serious brain-fade underway (don' tell Jack, pls.) I'll hafta reprocess most of this @ anotha time, 'cuz each time I thought I'd figured some of this out, turned-out not to-be-so… Come to think, isn't that a bit Buddha-like - when the "truth" is an onion?
Thanx 4 being patient; not your fault I'm not gettin' it right now…
Thanx 4 being patient; not your fault I'm not gettin' it right now…
Diana [Member] writes:
Well, thousands of years of meditating Buddhas must have gotten something right. That is an interesting distinction between justice and peace.
DM, some of the concepts are not to be analyzed and understood so much as, well, as Guilda would say, nevermind (difficult to explain). I think Eastern and Western ideologies are very different.
DM, some of the concepts are not to be analyzed and understood so much as, well, as Guilda would say, nevermind (difficult to explain). I think Eastern and Western ideologies are very different.
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
The notion isn't mine but comes from Martin Luther King Jr. - "Peace is not the absence of war but the presence of justice."
wôpanâshqâ [Member] writes:
What if hate and anger and conflict are all just symptoms of the real monster within..'fear'. What if peace and justice are just the by-products of the real power within..'Love'? No answer required really. This is just something to think about and consider now and again.
deltaman [Member] writes:
So glad I managed to stay-awake a bit longer; warms mw right thru to my cockles, when I can go to sleep knowing that I agreed with Jack on something!
So , I've gotcher back, on this "Peace" thing; I mean, without the justice, without the respect, without understanding something more than just that your enemy is bigger 'n you, - you've got "Peace" North Korea style, chewin' up an ungodly amount of resources, to keep it that way!
So , I've gotcher back, on this "Peace" thing; I mean, without the justice, without the respect, without understanding something more than just that your enemy is bigger 'n you, - you've got "Peace" North Korea style, chewin' up an ungodly amount of resources, to keep it that way!
wôpanâshqâ [Member] writes:
Muwin
Careful what you ask for. my computer shut down on me earlier!!! One person's help can sometime end up being another's pain in the &*^
Careful what you ask for. my computer shut down on me earlier!!! One person's help can sometime end up being another's pain in the &*^
deltaman [Member] writes:
Very wise, Wôpanâshqâ; I was struggling to get at that, earlier, with bittersweet, but she "hung up"on me! ;)
muwin [Member] writes:
Wôpanâshqâ, for better or worse, there are many other spirits afoot besides Muwin (I can't always agree with 'em, but they do provide entertainment!) Rest assured that, while discreet Muwin would never resort to trickery; you will always see me coming - straight on!
However, what other mischevious spirits may put asunder, I am somewhat practiced at fixing (computers, actually) so I'm sad that you are so far away… So, good luck with that!
;)
However, what other mischevious spirits may put asunder, I am somewhat practiced at fixing (computers, actually) so I'm sad that you are so far away… So, good luck with that!
;)
wôpanâshqâ [Member] writes:
Muwin
i may not be so 'far away'. i could be in more than one place at any given time and at the same time.....some of us carry that Medicine too.
;)
i may not be so 'far away'. i could be in more than one place at any given time and at the same time.....some of us carry that Medicine too.
;)
muwin [Member] writes:
True, wô, but when I'm THIS tired, I can barely maintain a human form, let-alone navigate it!
(Strikes me that my last comment could've stood with a few more commas; hopefully you got it's gist OK - if not here's some to sprinkle on , , , , )
Really gotta go - you don' wanna watch Muwin morphin' @ 11 - trust me on that!!!
(Strikes me that my last comment could've stood with a few more commas; hopefully you got it's gist OK - if not here's some to sprinkle on , , , , )
Really gotta go - you don' wanna watch Muwin morphin' @ 11 - trust me on that!!!
bittersweet [Member] writes:
"Anger has its problems because it is tiresome and sometimes outright dangerous. But a cold, black hatred is always serene and detached. Hatred is a natural response to liars and bullies. It is the source of all real thought and action. It is not a fist, but a compass. It is a radar that keeps us pointed in the right direction so we don’t get the next sucker punch. It is blowback with brains and understanding. It is not Osama or George.Their anger makes them clever like juvenile delinquents. My black hatred of them however makes me free to think up blowbacks." John Hanks
Or, it could be the character Jennifer Lopez played in the movie "Enough"!She had to be on to her abuser's evil and better at it them him in order to stop him.Because, if someone has no conscience,what do they care about love and goodness anyway?
Or, it could be the character Jennifer Lopez played in the movie "Enough"!She had to be on to her abuser's evil and better at it them him in order to stop him.Because, if someone has no conscience,what do they care about love and goodness anyway?
deltaman [Member] writes:
Yer scarin' me now, B'sweet!
')
')
bittersweet [Member] writes:
I kow deltaman, it's just the frustration of seeing what's going on in the world. I know that Love conquers hate, but maybe some people (if they are people) don't deserve it. That's for God/The Great Spirit to supply. Me, i'm free to hate if I want to. That's when you see how hard it is to really be a Christian. To love those who hate you, and pray for those who persecute you. But even Jesus gave hell to the the Brood of Vipers!!!!
bittersweet [Member] writes:
You know, though, I just thought of that Wiccan Law of Three. Whatever you send out there comes back at you 3 times strong. Maybe I'd better re-think my position!!!! Gotta go...have a great day "D".
deltaman [Member] writes:
Diana says: "I think Eastern and Western ideologies are very different." Thank you you for so-graciously dissing my failure to grasp the wisdom of countless meditating buddhas (Although, I have wondered if there is really any point to it, since they're typically forbidden to speak about any insights induced by those random back-thwacks.) Nevertheless, I'm seated next to three contented, happy puppies, who have achieved that state without the slightest pretext of intelligence; so, maybe there's hope for me, if I just learn to "let go?"
I fully subscribe to your premise that East & Wast are different; however, in practice both schools of thought seem pretty screwed-up, so I was hoping that someone with one foot in each camp, would offer insights on how to meld these philosophies in a disciplined way, so that the results would represent the best of both worlds, rather than the worst - or some thoughtless banality with all the social impact of ethnic cooking…
I fully subscribe to your premise that East & Wast are different; however, in practice both schools of thought seem pretty screwed-up, so I was hoping that someone with one foot in each camp, would offer insights on how to meld these philosophies in a disciplined way, so that the results would represent the best of both worlds, rather than the worst - or some thoughtless banality with all the social impact of ethnic cooking…
Diana [Member] writes:
(I think Jack is going to get the prize for the most comments)
Bitter - Buddhism carries the same concept as Christianity, beathe in others pain and suffering, breathe out peace and serenity - or - love those who hate you.
I knew a priest once who said his goal was to have a life (spiritual) more like his cat - so I think you're onto something with the puppies DM - they are very buddha - like.
JC - I appreciate the quote by MLK,
"Peace is not the absense of war, but the presence of justice."
He was so smart. I said the solution to conflict is peace. Maybe in between sometimes there needs to be justice (depending on what kind of justice, vigilante or judicial).
Personally I do not believe violence is ever the answer. So I guess there is a need to define justice. MLK preached non-violence. He was all for justice, but I believe his answer was to change laws, create community, build alliances. He was such a smart man.
There are vigilante groups who believe an eye for an eye and to them this is justice. MLK was against this form of justice, I am sure.
Bitter - Buddhism carries the same concept as Christianity, beathe in others pain and suffering, breathe out peace and serenity - or - love those who hate you.
I knew a priest once who said his goal was to have a life (spiritual) more like his cat - so I think you're onto something with the puppies DM - they are very buddha - like.
JC - I appreciate the quote by MLK,
"Peace is not the absense of war, but the presence of justice."
He was so smart. I said the solution to conflict is peace. Maybe in between sometimes there needs to be justice (depending on what kind of justice, vigilante or judicial).
Personally I do not believe violence is ever the answer. So I guess there is a need to define justice. MLK preached non-violence. He was all for justice, but I believe his answer was to change laws, create community, build alliances. He was such a smart man.
There are vigilante groups who believe an eye for an eye and to them this is justice. MLK was against this form of justice, I am sure.
muwin [Member] writes:
Diana, you are too sweet! - "Personally I do not believe violence is ever the answer." I urge you not to use reason, or breathing-out serenity, as your defenses against a raging kodiak, who's just decided that you are the solution to her cubs malnutrition! (assuming you won't immediately see that impending sacrifice as giving a higher purpose to your existence…)
My point is, I'd like to know lots more about how your philosophy transcends into practical tactics, when threats from those not subscribing to your principles actually threaten your lifestyle - even your life, and not just your admirable equanimity…
My point is, I'd like to know lots more about how your philosophy transcends into practical tactics, when threats from those not subscribing to your principles actually threaten your lifestyle - even your life, and not just your admirable equanimity…
Diana [Member] writes:
I struggled with this for a long time. I have had adversaries give me a difficult time and did just that, walk away. But after a while there is a need for some form of standing up for oneself, whether it be asking for help, gaining assistance from others. Some buddhist when faced with a violent opponent can decide to use violence, in turn, if there is a threat, bodily harm and so forth.
Buddhists (monks and others) meditate partly to help end suffering. This could sound "sweet," but they are serious and (some) extremely disciplined in their faith. Especially the Tibetan Buddhist and Zen Buddhist who, culturally, have been through so much hardship.
Buddhists (monks and others) meditate partly to help end suffering. This could sound "sweet," but they are serious and (some) extremely disciplined in their faith. Especially the Tibetan Buddhist and Zen Buddhist who, culturally, have been through so much hardship.
wôpanâshqâ [Member] writes:
i can be of no further help in these discussions. When we talk about 'Eastern' and 'Western' we are actually talking about Peoples. Inevitably it turns out that 'Western' does not really mean the indigenous Peoples on this continent. i am disappointed that this happened so quickly in the conversation. my appreciation for dagny's honesty since it snapped me back into reality. Inevitably it is always the position taken by Non-natives that 'If we didn't try to crush you, someone else would have and we are the lesser of all evils so just keep that in mind and you'll feel better about your situation'
Reserving any small help i can be to humanity for my own People. At minumum, i will be discussing issues from a common place of our understanding in regard to our privileges and responsibilities while on this Earth. i guess i was really buying into John's attempt at teaching when he wrote 'Imagine'.
Reserving any small help i can be to humanity for my own People. At minumum, i will be discussing issues from a common place of our understanding in regard to our privileges and responsibilities while on this Earth. i guess i was really buying into John's attempt at teaching when he wrote 'Imagine'.
Diana [Member] writes:
I apologize to the last poster (W - I would write your name but some symbols I do not have on my computer) for talking Eastern and Western as if I were not including indigeneous people. I think we have moved into world topics here, but my intention was not at all to be exclusionary. I am working on a blog post about "white guilt" for anyone who is interested - Building Bridges is my blog. (Imagine is a favorite song of mine).
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
I loved Lennon, still do, but can't stand that song. "Imagine no possessions, I wonder if you can" - sung by a guy worth $150 mil.
Great observation, muwin, about the raging kodiak and her cubs. I was thinking along the same lines. Is there a parent alive who has not felt the blood rise at even the thought of a predator harming his or her child? Actually, there are. The ones who should never have had children.
Great observation, muwin, about the raging kodiak and her cubs. I was thinking along the same lines. Is there a parent alive who has not felt the blood rise at even the thought of a predator harming his or her child? Actually, there are. The ones who should never have had children.
crusader [Member] writes:
I'm no fan of Kerry--but Bush & his cronies made a huge blunder of this war & our fiscal status. The Dem's in Iowa last night--only one that really makes any sense is Hillary & Joe Biden--
So far Bush has managed to:
Create Corporate Welfare Tax for his buddies, outsource jobs, stock pile cash from the war effort via--Haliburton into wealthy pockets. Don't forget the bailouts for the airlines CEO's, subprime lenders & whoever else needs GB to save their ass.
Middle class are being forced into poverty via--loss of jobs, healthcare,
pharmaceuticals (especially for our elderly), homelessness, lack of education, & lack of services.
How much can middle America take before there is a revolution?
I sure wish Abbey Hoffman was still around. He may have seemed extreme, but his message was the right one.
My dad always said this country was run by capitalist pigs who make money from the wars they create, while impoverishing their own people--and the millions living in the countries they ruin. Looks as though English Colonialism never died.
So far Bush has managed to:
Create Corporate Welfare Tax for his buddies, outsource jobs, stock pile cash from the war effort via--Haliburton into wealthy pockets. Don't forget the bailouts for the airlines CEO's, subprime lenders & whoever else needs GB to save their ass.
Middle class are being forced into poverty via--loss of jobs, healthcare,
pharmaceuticals (especially for our elderly), homelessness, lack of education, & lack of services.
How much can middle America take before there is a revolution?
I sure wish Abbey Hoffman was still around. He may have seemed extreme, but his message was the right one.
My dad always said this country was run by capitalist pigs who make money from the wars they create, while impoverishing their own people--and the millions living in the countries they ruin. Looks as though English Colonialism never died.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Funny that you said that JC, that was "apparently" why Chapman killed him...thought he was a phony. Did you ever see the picture of his glasses after he'd been shot? Really haunting, cause that's kind of like how you knew him. But I love some of the stuff Yoko Ono has done too! She made a music video that was perfection. And she practices a kind of Zen too.(I heard him say that once..Yoko's kind of Zen) And props to Green Day for re-making his song!
muwin [Member] writes:
Wôpanâshqâ, I would feel a great loss if you were to withdraw!
As a teacher, you must accept that yes - sometimes you might need to scold a class harshly, in order to restore decorum. Now that you have our attention, please continue with your patient instruction; as a "Weaver & Keeper of the Web" you have a unique insights & valuable wisdom to share…
Ktolalokittiyewehkuhul! ???
'Koti-acehtuwanol wasisol wolekiyil…
;)
As a teacher, you must accept that yes - sometimes you might need to scold a class harshly, in order to restore decorum. Now that you have our attention, please continue with your patient instruction; as a "Weaver & Keeper of the Web" you have a unique insights & valuable wisdom to share…
Ktolalokittiyewehkuhul! ???
'Koti-acehtuwanol wasisol wolekiyil…
;)
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Weaver and Keeper of the Web? That's intriguing!
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
... and you've taken a vow of poverty, have you, Crusader?
Yes, bittersweet, I know the photo you're referring to, I think Yoko put it on the cover of her first album after Lennon died. Chapman did not kill Lennon because Lennon was a hypocrite, which we all are in one form or another; Chapman killed Lennon because Chapman was a psychopath.
I wrote a blog piece about Lennon a couple of years ago on the anniversary of his death, with a self-explanatory title -
"Happiness is a Bodyguard with a Warm Gun."
Yes, bittersweet, I know the photo you're referring to, I think Yoko put it on the cover of her first album after Lennon died. Chapman did not kill Lennon because Lennon was a hypocrite, which we all are in one form or another; Chapman killed Lennon because Chapman was a psychopath.
I wrote a blog piece about Lennon a couple of years ago on the anniversary of his death, with a self-explanatory title -
"Happiness is a Bodyguard with a Warm Gun."
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Yeah....it's actually kind of surprising that he didn't have one, but things were pretty different back then... it was that one actress getting shot that seemed to change everything.In the late 80's or early 90's.
Diana [Member] writes:
Nice thread -
John Lennon was such a great musician and his death was tragic. His voice lives on...there's a great documentary on his life and death, pretty interesting.
I just wanted to also underline Muwin's request for W to stay on.
John Lennon was such a great musician and his death was tragic. His voice lives on...there's a great documentary on his life and death, pretty interesting.
I just wanted to also underline Muwin's request for W to stay on.
crusader [Member] writes:
Jack,
As long as none of this effects you---why do you care. I'm not wealthy---and not poor, but any one of us can be there sooner than you think, Jack.
I heard it's only going to get worse, not better and when we pull out of Iraq is the time it will be most difficult.
Why didn't they build a war and force these countries to live in peace or else?
No, it's about occupation of a country rich in oil.
Read, "The War on Freedom" .....it's all there in black and white...if you've got the courage to read just what this administration has done to us.......
As long as none of this effects you---why do you care. I'm not wealthy---and not poor, but any one of us can be there sooner than you think, Jack.
I heard it's only going to get worse, not better and when we pull out of Iraq is the time it will be most difficult.
Why didn't they build a war and force these countries to live in peace or else?
No, it's about occupation of a country rich in oil.
Read, "The War on Freedom" .....it's all there in black and white...if you've got the courage to read just what this administration has done to us.......
Diana [Member] writes:
I just posted a new blog in response to being told I have "white guilt" go to Building Bridges. JC - I think you can spare some readers, no?
bittersweet [Member] writes:
That documentary must go into the whole FBI, following him, tapping his phones? He got the whole "creepy' treatment! But he was also so funny. What a jokester, huh? (well, they all were) But it was a strange phenomenon, if you go back and look at it now. People actually crying and fainting in the audience.But you're right.Great music.Still.
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Fine by me, Diana. Freedom's just another word for posting where you want.
Loved how rock critic Robert Palmer (not to be confused with late rock singer of same name) put it - without McCartney, the Beatles wouldn't have been half as popular; without Lennon, they wouldn't have been half as important.
Crusader, try not to confuse the trajectory of your own life with that of the world as a whole. Two separate things, really.
Loved how rock critic Robert Palmer (not to be confused with late rock singer of same name) put it - without McCartney, the Beatles wouldn't have been half as popular; without Lennon, they wouldn't have been half as important.
Crusader, try not to confuse the trajectory of your own life with that of the world as a whole. Two separate things, really.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Oh, remember when he made that innocent statement about being "more popular than Jesus Christ", and everybody went ape-sh**!!!They were burning records, boy-cotting the shows....that was crazy! And the hair. The boys grew theirs long,"like the Beatles".(my brother did...but then, his was always long) and the parents letting the kids stay up to watch them on the Ed Sullivan Show? They were something else.
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Future campaign song for Kerry - "Ballad of John and Yoko"
bittersweet [Member] writes:
That's a great song! funny,we talked about the Beatles all night tonight....it's part of so many people's childhood and past,isn't it? But a lot of it was strange. All that weird stuff that went on. Remember the rumor that Paul was dead? And all that craziness...The walrus was Paul, him walking barefoot on the cover of Abbey Road, looking through a glass onion, The white album-playing it backward, number9,number9, number9.... and then everyone was smoking on top of that, so it was even stranger! But it sure was fun.,And sure was some good music to grow up with..among so much other great music back then. We were lucky!And when they released Free as a Bird...now that was bitter-sweet.Oh well, nostalgia creeps up on ya as you age. ha ha
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Crusader--
Here's another one for you to read,although you probably know more about it than you ever would want to...it makes your stomach turn.
Torture, Inc. America's Brutal Prisons. i don't think Walpole's in the same category, but who knows?
Here's another one for you to read,although you probably know more about it than you ever would want to...it makes your stomach turn.
Torture, Inc. America's Brutal Prisons. i don't think Walpole's in the same category, but who knows?
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
We can only hope.
deltaman [Member] writes:
B'sweet, if you're still out there, pls tell me something nice 'that's happened in the past two days…???
bittersweet [Member] writes:
I was trying to think of some John Lennon come-back, but as you know, I'm not much on the "witty reparte". At least we got to "Come Together"(there's one!) for a little while, but now I see it's back to normal. FREE CHRIS MCCOWEN!!!
deltaman [Member] writes:
Geeze, Jack - Sometimes, I get to suspecting that a flea's gonads are bigger 'n your heart! =(
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Tell me about it deltaman!!!Well, it must be something about blogging that makes people mean and ornery. At least Diana kept her cool, and her niceness...even in the face of some attacks. Here's something nice...I'm glad you're back!! But now I gotta go troll the web for men.
deltaman [Member] writes:
Much luck wit' dat, B - But don' come back braggin' if you score…
bittersweet [Member] writes:
See you later deltaman...
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
The aforementioned scorn is more than a bit ironic, considering the extended dialogue about Lennon that preceded it.
I recall plenty of people twisted beyond recognition by Lennon when he wielded his only weapon - words, often accompanied by music.
I recall plenty of people twisted beyond recognition by Lennon when he wielded his only weapon - words, often accompanied by music.
deltaman [Member] writes:
Jack, it's a rare tragedy that doesn't inflict collateral damage on innocent lives; without taking a stand on Chris McCowen's guilt, I am deeply affected by Bittersweet's grief… (anticipating your comeback - grief is a feeling; it needs no justification for its existence! It serves no purpose, imo, to "heap it on" the innocent…)
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Your anticipation is off the mark, deltaman, but your average in that regard remains high. Worthington's survivors, including and perhaps most especially the 2-year-old daughter who was home when her mother was murdered, and who could easily have become a second victim by wandering from the house in the dead of winter, grieve as much as bittersweet. Maybe even as "deeply."
deltaman [Member] writes:
Nope, I'd say it was right on the mark, but you've apparently misconstrued my remarks, if you think my empathy is at ALL selective; or for that matter, if I feel scorn for you…
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
thanks, deltaman, for the sideways compliment, or at least I think it was.
deltaman [Member] writes:
Jack (reaching back for the a metaphor I've used before) - If a bull wants to get a picador's attention, making a thrust at "the horse he rode in on" may prove useful…
I'm grateful to apparently have your attention (that's no bull) but now I've got another dillema:
Too many outside tasks await, so I'm again facing a frequent frustration of mine, herein…
I'm grateful to apparently have your attention (that's no bull) but now I've got another dillema:
Too many outside tasks await, so I'm again facing a frequent frustration of mine, herein…
Diana [Member] writes:
It just cracks me up we are all talking underneath the picture of this crazed looking man, and he's our senator.
JC - did you ever find out the result of the law suit with the garbage company? That seems to be important. It's lovely how compassionate you are for her and her daughter, but there was so much left out of the case, we'll never know the truth. They convicted a man based on bogus facts and his supposed confession was coerced, if he actually even said what the officer said he said. There were moment where I was like, huh, this is turning into entertainment, and they didn't seem to want to quit at that point. Kind of like John Lennon's death, when the facts are in front of you it seems so obvious.
JC - did you ever find out the result of the law suit with the garbage company? That seems to be important. It's lovely how compassionate you are for her and her daughter, but there was so much left out of the case, we'll never know the truth. They convicted a man based on bogus facts and his supposed confession was coerced, if he actually even said what the officer said he said. There were moment where I was like, huh, this is turning into entertainment, and they didn't seem to want to quit at that point. Kind of like John Lennon's death, when the facts are in front of you it seems so obvious.
deltaman [Member] writes:
(I agree, Diana, been makin' me kinda queasy, too…)
Well, I think that there's a thread that connects the hungry momma bear metaphor & the Christa Worthington murder - anybody want to bite? (Will likely need its own page & a couple of days…)
Well, I think that there's a thread that connects the hungry momma bear metaphor & the Christa Worthington murder - anybody want to bite? (Will likely need its own page & a couple of days…)
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Diana, the standard for acquittal in a murder trial is reasonable doubt, not certainty. If certainty was the standard, the prisons would be less crowded and the rest of us less safe.
As for Lennon, I recall all too well what happened that night because a stepsister I loved dearly, as did nearly all who knew her - she was voted most popular girl in her senior class at high school only a few years before - was buried that day, Monday Dec. 8, 1980. She died in a car accident three days earlier.
And after Cathy's funeral, held on the cusp of winter, some of those attending looked up to see a rainbow. I learned of this later that day when people were talking about it at home. It's been so long, I'm not sure how I missed that rainbow, and oh how I wish I hadn't, but I assume it was because my head was bowed as I wept.
Above us only sky indeed.
As for Lennon, I recall all too well what happened that night because a stepsister I loved dearly, as did nearly all who knew her - she was voted most popular girl in her senior class at high school only a few years before - was buried that day, Monday Dec. 8, 1980. She died in a car accident three days earlier.
And after Cathy's funeral, held on the cusp of winter, some of those attending looked up to see a rainbow. I learned of this later that day when people were talking about it at home. It's been so long, I'm not sure how I missed that rainbow, and oh how I wish I hadn't, but I assume it was because my head was bowed as I wept.
Above us only sky indeed.
deltaman [Member] writes:
Jack, as a child I was taught to believe that every rainbow I see is the same rainbow I've always seen - a bridge illuminated by the spirits of those who passed across into another dimension. So, I believe that every rainbow you've seen since has always contained the light from Cathy's passing. When you see it come around again - wave hello…
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Thanks, deltaman, good advice. Not a rainbow has passed since that hasn't reminded me of her, and I keep looking for them. Apropo that you mentioned the light from Cathy's passing - the epitaph on her gravestone is "Beauty is a light in the heart."
bittersweet [Member] writes:
My birthday is Dec. 8,and I used to love it, because all the rock stations would play Jonh Lennon music all day long. But, they don't do that anymore....most times they don't even mention it.(well, that's not true, it depends on the station)
But, if there's one thing he believed in was Power To The People....and that fight is getting lost.
But, if there's one thing he believed in was Power To The People....and that fight is getting lost.
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
bittersweet, I think you share a birthday with Jim Morrison and, in a weird parallel, Dec. 8 (or maybe 10th) may have been the date of the Altamont concert.
Don't agree at all incidentally with your last point. Life has been getting better for most people in the world for decades and in all likelihood will continue to do so, even with the war in Iraq, terrorism and other challenges facing us.
A few books have been suggested in this thread - a couple I'd add to the mix - "The Progress Paradox: How Life Gets Better While People Feel Worse" by Gregg Easterbrook (2003) and "The Good Life and its Discontents" by (I think) Robert Samuelson, coming out in the late 80s.
You think things are bad now? Read up on what life was like in this country during the Civil War, or in the South through the post-Reconstruction period after federal troops departed in 1877 and lynchings were commonplace. Speak with elders who lived through the Depression and World War II and they will describe an era when privation and personal losses were far worse than they are now.
Don't agree at all incidentally with your last point. Life has been getting better for most people in the world for decades and in all likelihood will continue to do so, even with the war in Iraq, terrorism and other challenges facing us.
A few books have been suggested in this thread - a couple I'd add to the mix - "The Progress Paradox: How Life Gets Better While People Feel Worse" by Gregg Easterbrook (2003) and "The Good Life and its Discontents" by (I think) Robert Samuelson, coming out in the late 80s.
You think things are bad now? Read up on what life was like in this country during the Civil War, or in the South through the post-Reconstruction period after federal troops departed in 1877 and lynchings were commonplace. Speak with elders who lived through the Depression and World War II and they will describe an era when privation and personal losses were far worse than they are now.
Diana [Member] writes:
Reasonable doubt - they neglected to test the external swab, the blood on the sink, the bloody hand print on the wall, the blood on her body, the fiber from the sweater, the timeline is all screwy, it appeared no one ever bothered (until the trial) to even figure out a timeline or time of death, the stories in closing arguments made no sense, there were about 10 state officials walking around the crime scene all night for hours until CW body was brought to the morgue, her body was posed, her leg was propped in the bookcase. Reasonable doubt was presented and the jury was convinced by a flashy ADA and had an image of this large black man in their mind and helpless CW and her daughter left there. I sat through the trial and can say I am 99.9% sure he didn't do it. He even said at the end "I am not guilty of THESE charges." So, the irony is, people think their streets are safer, but the killer walked free.
I guess no one's talking about the garbage company lawsuit, 10 million's a lot of money.
I guess no one's talking about the garbage company lawsuit, 10 million's a lot of money.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
I always liked the Doors too...for a while i've been wanting to paint "Riders on the Storm" on my car!!!(my daughter won't let me!)
And i will buy your point about material wealth being better, and even go to the library and get those books (well, one anyway)but for crying out loud, they're spying on us!
Why do they need to know what books we are reading? Soon,we will need a passport to travel in the US. Padilla arrested, locked up, no lawyer, no personal contact. Micro-chipping everything? They can say "it's for terrorism purposes", but I think it is some kind of psychological experiment on the human race. How to control us better? how to make us more docile? These people in the gvt. give me the creeps! Whew! Now I said it, and you can laugh or shake your head. But,something is different from when I was a kid.
(And have you looked at some of them? They are 60 plus years of age, and have skin like a baby. EEEWW)
And i will buy your point about material wealth being better, and even go to the library and get those books (well, one anyway)but for crying out loud, they're spying on us!
Why do they need to know what books we are reading? Soon,we will need a passport to travel in the US. Padilla arrested, locked up, no lawyer, no personal contact. Micro-chipping everything? They can say "it's for terrorism purposes", but I think it is some kind of psychological experiment on the human race. How to control us better? how to make us more docile? These people in the gvt. give me the creeps! Whew! Now I said it, and you can laugh or shake your head. But,something is different from when I was a kid.
(And have you looked at some of them? They are 60 plus years of age, and have skin like a baby. EEEWW)
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Diana....I love you!!! You just spelled it out to perfection. And when another trial happens, people are going to say, What the F**k happened here?
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Diana, ever strike you as odd that Bob George, McCowen's lawyer, could easily have filed a motion requesting that evidence such as the blue thread found on Worthington's body be tested for a possible match with the blue and white fibers in the sweater worn by Jeremy Frazier - that George could easily have filed this motion - but never did? Strike you as peculiar in the least?
It would be logistically impossible to test every single thread, hair, etc., at a crime scene. The lengthy backlog at the crime lab would be extended by years, with defendants languishing that much longer in jail before trial.
The cops walking around the crime scene - you're the one touting the need for compassion - try to keep in mind that one of the first cops there was Worthington's cousin. And the blanket placed on Worthington's body, the blanket with hairs and semen from former boyfriend Tim Arnold - the blanket was placed over Worthington's half-nude body by medical personnel motivated by a sense of decency.
As for that lawsuit, last I heard it was settled out of court, as civil suits frequently are.
It would be logistically impossible to test every single thread, hair, etc., at a crime scene. The lengthy backlog at the crime lab would be extended by years, with defendants languishing that much longer in jail before trial.
The cops walking around the crime scene - you're the one touting the need for compassion - try to keep in mind that one of the first cops there was Worthington's cousin. And the blanket placed on Worthington's body, the blanket with hairs and semen from former boyfriend Tim Arnold - the blanket was placed over Worthington's half-nude body by medical personnel motivated by a sense of decency.
As for that lawsuit, last I heard it was settled out of court, as civil suits frequently are.
Diana [Member] writes:
kind of the icing on the cake, that lawsuit. I can't speak for George, but I think you answered the question. From what I remember the lab was unwilling to proceed with further testing. And it is standard proceedure in any case to test all of the evidence, not pick and choose as they did here. The length of time they spent at the crime scene speaks to contamination. There was no list of people who walked in and out of the home. And her foot wedged in the door, well, I'm not a scientist, I don't really need to be one. I think it was after 10pm when they finally took her body in.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Yes,and no offense JC, but now you care about defendants languishing in jail?
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
I think I answered the question as well, Diana, and the answer is clearly one you're uncomfortable with. That's why you're giving it a wide berth. As to whether the crime lab was "unwilling to proceed with further testing" during the trial - please cite the source of that information, I'd be most curious to see it.
Even if what you claim is accurate, and I doubt it is, nothing - once again, nothing - prevented Bob George from making the request in open court. If I'm in George's shoes, I am going to make that request loud and clear in court and then call every reporter covering the trial to make sure that word gets out and then plaster it on billboards just for good measure. George did none of the above.
The reason - the sobering possibility that the threads would not match those on Frazier's sweater and George's motion revealed as a fishing expedition.
Sounds to me like you want only evidence tested which supports your belief about what happened, as opposed to "all" the evidence.
Not incidentally, the prosecution also didn't ask during the trial for the threads to be tested.
Even if what you claim is accurate, and I doubt it is, nothing - once again, nothing - prevented Bob George from making the request in open court. If I'm in George's shoes, I am going to make that request loud and clear in court and then call every reporter covering the trial to make sure that word gets out and then plaster it on billboards just for good measure. George did none of the above.
The reason - the sobering possibility that the threads would not match those on Frazier's sweater and George's motion revealed as a fishing expedition.
Sounds to me like you want only evidence tested which supports your belief about what happened, as opposed to "all" the evidence.
Not incidentally, the prosecution also didn't ask during the trial for the threads to be tested.
Buzz [Member] writes:
Diana,
I think I can help with a time of death. Apparently it was during or right after CM had sex with her. She was found in the hallway where CM said they had sex and she had his DNA in her and on her breast. Now, unles she didn't get up and move or didn't take a shower... i guess that pretty much wraps it up.
I think I can help with a time of death. Apparently it was during or right after CM had sex with her. She was found in the hallway where CM said they had sex and she had his DNA in her and on her breast. Now, unles she didn't get up and move or didn't take a shower... i guess that pretty much wraps it up.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
99 bottles of beer on the wall, 99 bottles of beer. You load 13 tons,and what do you get?Another day older and deeper in debt.
Diana [Member] writes:
I'm pretty sure the judge, the DA, the ADA and George could have all requested the evidence tested. George gave everyone a long list of things that were not tested and even had special witnesses to back up why they needed to be tested. Still no one proceeded. I don't know what the protocal should have been, and was not privy to decisions made on "side-bar", but I feel now so much time has passed it's fruitless. That's why a crime scene is secured and evidence gathered in a timely manner and evidence sealed and tested in a timely manner. The entire thing was a travesty of justice for everyone involved, including reporters who clearly wasted a lot of time, money, effort for nothing.
The only thing I felt uncomfortable with was an innocent man going to prison. That's why they had the trial. I think the best thing to do, JC, IMHO, and a strong suggestion, is to let it go. People addicted to gossip with carry this on forever. If there's anything I can do to help an innocent man be set free, I am more than willing to help.
The only thing I felt uncomfortable with was an innocent man going to prison. That's why they had the trial. I think the best thing to do, JC, IMHO, and a strong suggestion, is to let it go. People addicted to gossip with carry this on forever. If there's anything I can do to help an innocent man be set free, I am more than willing to help.
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Diana, the difference between Bob George, the DA, the ADA and the judge - only George represented McCowen, the defendant whose life was on the line. You imply that George requested additional testing during the trial. He did no such thing and for a reason you can't bring yourself to acknowledge - the results may have come back negative for a match with Frazier's sweater. When in doubt, punt.
I find it astounding how you feel "uncomfortable" about an "innocent man going to prison" - without any chance of parole - while also suggesting we "let it go." Truly, truly astounding.
What shocked many reporters and others writing about the trial when the verdict came down, and I know because I was one of them, is that McCowen was convicted of first-degree murder and not second-degree murder or manslaughter. A conviction of either lesser offense would hardly have exonerated McCowen, however; he still would have been complicit if not instrumental in Worthington's death. The only basis for doubt, as I see it, is in whether McCowen was alone. And if he wasn't, a killer still walks free.
I find it astounding how you feel "uncomfortable" about an "innocent man going to prison" - without any chance of parole - while also suggesting we "let it go." Truly, truly astounding.
What shocked many reporters and others writing about the trial when the verdict came down, and I know because I was one of them, is that McCowen was convicted of first-degree murder and not second-degree murder or manslaughter. A conviction of either lesser offense would hardly have exonerated McCowen, however; he still would have been complicit if not instrumental in Worthington's death. The only basis for doubt, as I see it, is in whether McCowen was alone. And if he wasn't, a killer still walks free.
Diana [Member] writes:
My assertion only comes from the assumption everyone involved wants to know the truth. From where I sat Attny George presented the case to the jurors. Again, I don't know proceedurally what needed to happen with the evidence. I think if the forensic people did their work in the first place, we would all know who killed CW. I guess I feel idle gossip doesn't help anyone at this point. It's good to go over the facts of the case, but gossip for gossip sake, or to try and make someone look bad, seems, again, fruitless. I am going to go out on a limb and say it seems you got yourself emotionally involved and that's fine. So, that's all I meant by letting it go. Just a suggestion. Good luck.
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Yeah, matters involving life and death have that effect on me. I'm funny that way.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Me too JC, and my personal opinion is that he wouldn't take 2nd degree or manslaughter, because he had nothing to do with it whatsoever; He wasn't involved in her murder at all. And since he wouldn't play ball with them, and at least give them something, they threw the book at him!
bittersweet [Member] writes:
And speaking of life and death,last night I was alone at work, and thinking about what Wopanashqa said, since she was the one who brouht up John Lennon in the 1st place!:
"What if hate and anger and conflict are all just symptoms of the real monster within..'fear'. What if peace and justice are just the by-products of the real power within..'Love'?"
Well, if you look around the world today, you have to ask yourself, What are we so afraid of????
"What if hate and anger and conflict are all just symptoms of the real monster within..'fear'. What if peace and justice are just the by-products of the real power within..'Love'?"
Well, if you look around the world today, you have to ask yourself, What are we so afraid of????
deltaman [Member] writes:
One of your better AM sign-ons, B'sweet!
(Off to walk the pups…)
(Off to walk the pups…)
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
bittersweet, McCowen had no say in the verdict, that was up to the jury. You missed my point - a verdict of second-degree murder or manslaughter would not mean McCowen is innocent. To wonder aloud if McCowen was not alone in killing Worthington hardly exonerates him of complicity in her death.
As to your earlier query - "no offense JC, but now you care about defendants languishing in jail" - you are aware, or at least I hope you are, of the difference between a defendant fully entitled to the presumption of innocence and a convicted murderer? You do understand that distinction, right?
As to your earlier query - "no offense JC, but now you care about defendants languishing in jail" - you are aware, or at least I hope you are, of the difference between a defendant fully entitled to the presumption of innocence and a convicted murderer? You do understand that distinction, right?
bittersweet [Member] writes:
yeah...too bad he didn't get that presumption from that old gramma who was planted on the jury! (imo)
Diana [Member] writes:
Some buddhist when faced with a violent opponent can decide to use violence, in turn, if there is a threat, bodily harm and so forth.
I just wanted to clarify this statement I made earlier in the thread. Aparently there is a little controversy. I do not have a perfectly clear understanding about all the concepts of Buddhism. I know most Buddhist do not condone violence of any kind. I did ask someone with more knowledge of Buddhism about the question of being faced with a threat. His answer was if there is a threat, it's not usually an accepted Buddhist practice for a person who practices Buddhism to use violent force as a means to deal with conflict.
Again, this is only my humble interpretation.
B-sweet, I really liked what Wopanashqua said as well. Very nice.
I just wanted to clarify this statement I made earlier in the thread. Aparently there is a little controversy. I do not have a perfectly clear understanding about all the concepts of Buddhism. I know most Buddhist do not condone violence of any kind. I did ask someone with more knowledge of Buddhism about the question of being faced with a threat. His answer was if there is a threat, it's not usually an accepted Buddhist practice for a person who practices Buddhism to use violent force as a means to deal with conflict.
Again, this is only my humble interpretation.
B-sweet, I really liked what Wopanashqua said as well. Very nice.
blogspotter [Member] writes:
coleman, do use choose these photos on purpose? and your point is....
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
... and the point is to use photos that dovetail with the premise of what I'm writing. Whether I succeed is in the eye of the beholder. The main reason for using them is that blog posts are more likely to be read with photos than without.
blogspotter [Member] writes:
dovetail, one day, we all, even you, have to see those mugs in the mirror...have some pity
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I was hoping someone would write about clueless Kerry - what a huge disappointment to Democrats and democrats.
Were we all fooled for decades by that craggy, long face and that Lincolnesque stature?
Perhaps we held to the old photos of him marching against the Vietnam War, but we were all gulled by this insipid and banal empty suit.