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:: Sunday, November 8th, 2009Op-Ed
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H2B or No H2B? That is the Question
09/15/08 · 2:42 pm :: posted by CCToday
H2B or No H2B? That is the Question
Why did Dennis buck the unemployment trend this summer?
By Spyro Mitrokostas
If you want to travel to America and work over the Summer in a hotel,
or if you want to work in a restaurant (and don't mind taking a job
away from an American citizen), this is the visa for you.
The State's Office of Labor and Workforce Development recently released the July 2008 employment numbers showing that unemployment on Cape Cod increased slightly, at approximately half a percent from 2007.
The Town of Dennis bucked that trend with an actual decrease in unemployed. There were twenty fewer residents unemployed this July compared to last year.
Combined with the expectation that twenty more would have been without work if we had followed the trend, to what do we attribute that forty more people were working this summer that would otherwise be receiving unemployment?
H2B problems helped Cape workers
It is not a coincidence that this year many of our businesses were unable to hire foreign workers with H2B visas.
Out of necessity they turned to local workers instead.
That's the good news.
The bad news is that there were still 6,057 residents on the Cape Cod unemployed at the end of July.
Spyro Mitrokostas, Executive Director, Dennis Chamber of Commerce
26 comments
Blog posts and comments are entirely the thoughts and ideas of the people who write them and in no way represent the views of CapeCodToday.com, eCape, Inc., or its employees or owners.
Shecky [Member] writes:
Is H2B anything other than a way to exploit foreign workers at the expense of unemployed Americans?
If Cape businesses were forced to pay a living wage to waiters and bed-makers, wouldn't that make the playing field level for all.
If Cape businesses were forced to pay a living wage to waiters and bed-makers, wouldn't that make the playing field level for all.
Peter Robbins [Member] writes:
Another part of the equation could be that the devalued American dollar made it more profitable for H2B workers to stay at home and work. Hats off to Dennis for their achievements !
Democrant [Member] writes:
Amen Shecky, workers here get shafted on wages and bennies, in general. Yet, oddly enough, one pays more to live here, a strange inverse relationship.
Andy Buckley [Member] writes:
Peter, the devalued American dollar had more to do with perhaps fewer J1 (typically from Eastern Europe) or with those who overstayed their tourist visas deciding to return home (like Brazil).
The fewer H2B's on the Cape was a direct result of the annual cap being reached within 48 hours back at the first of the year. There's great demand for workers coming in under a program (H2B) Congressman Charlie Rangel described as "Close to Slavery."
Even so, there were some H2B's here this summer, having extended their visas from northern ski resorts. The farcical state office that certifies employers visa requests stooped to a new low by advertising for jobs on the Cape by omitting the basic information one might expect -- like the name of the business where the job is.
Okay, I understand if this is a professional job, but chambermaids? Used to be the ads would state who the employer was that turned its back on the community and was paying the lowest amount allowable.
And leave it up to a salaried state bureaucrat to find new ways to justify her existence when no visas are available.
The fewer H2B's on the Cape was a direct result of the annual cap being reached within 48 hours back at the first of the year. There's great demand for workers coming in under a program (H2B) Congressman Charlie Rangel described as "Close to Slavery."
Even so, there were some H2B's here this summer, having extended their visas from northern ski resorts. The farcical state office that certifies employers visa requests stooped to a new low by advertising for jobs on the Cape by omitting the basic information one might expect -- like the name of the business where the job is.
Okay, I understand if this is a professional job, but chambermaids? Used to be the ads would state who the employer was that turned its back on the community and was paying the lowest amount allowable.
And leave it up to a salaried state bureaucrat to find new ways to justify her existence when no visas are available.
Monponsett [Member] writes:
We should pick one section of one town... maybe like a Bournedale or a Pocasset... and just set it aside as Cape-area Burger King Night Shift housing.... then like have hourly bus service or something.
possee [Member] writes:
Prevailing wages in a taxed, regulated,state insurance mandated, state has forced small businesses to seek the lowest paid workers to fill positions...period
H2B workers come here due to a higher prevailing wage than their respective country for the same work or better.. period..
Local Cape Codders can not afford the prevailing wage to live here..thus the gear towards foreign workers who are willing to work at a lower rate..
Fair? No!
Fact?Yes!
Blame who you will but this is reality here on Cape Cod..
Perhaps government should get off the backs of small business which employs the vast majority of all of us..
That goes for BOTH parties..
And BOTH are culpable..
Instead of blaming each other, maybe you respective pols can legislate less govt intrusion and assist us Americans who work ..for once in your lifetimes, instead of regulating and mandating our employers to death...
and those who are self employed as well..
Get off your party bylines and pay attention to those who actually pay your miserable salaries for what?
Any takers?
H2B workers come here due to a higher prevailing wage than their respective country for the same work or better.. period..
Local Cape Codders can not afford the prevailing wage to live here..thus the gear towards foreign workers who are willing to work at a lower rate..
Fair? No!
Fact?Yes!
Blame who you will but this is reality here on Cape Cod..
Perhaps government should get off the backs of small business which employs the vast majority of all of us..
That goes for BOTH parties..
And BOTH are culpable..
Instead of blaming each other, maybe you respective pols can legislate less govt intrusion and assist us Americans who work ..for once in your lifetimes, instead of regulating and mandating our employers to death...
and those who are self employed as well..
Get off your party bylines and pay attention to those who actually pay your miserable salaries for what?
Any takers?
possee [Member] writes:
On a final note..
Regarding Maverick..
This constant barrage of one sidedness portraying ALL our respective problems.. local , state, and national on how evil and corrupt our country is, is why he left this site for good..
Mav, and myself, have voted Democrat and Repub, depending on their stance on issues and their character..
We are both registered independents..
We understand the complexities of govt..both good, and bad.
But bottom line.. we love our country and still hold to the principles of its foundation..not the political parties!
After a lengthy conversation today with the Capt.. I just wanted to say my piece..
His insight and commentary will be missed
He respects opposing views but has had enough of the vernacular and blinders on approach to the recent blogs and comments posted..
Maverick respects many of you, despite the differences, and I hope someday you will extend some civility to future commenters and bloggers.
Mav.. unabashed, true to his convictions.
right or wrong
possee
Regarding Maverick..
This constant barrage of one sidedness portraying ALL our respective problems.. local , state, and national on how evil and corrupt our country is, is why he left this site for good..
Mav, and myself, have voted Democrat and Repub, depending on their stance on issues and their character..
We are both registered independents..
We understand the complexities of govt..both good, and bad.
But bottom line.. we love our country and still hold to the principles of its foundation..not the political parties!
After a lengthy conversation today with the Capt.. I just wanted to say my piece..
His insight and commentary will be missed
He respects opposing views but has had enough of the vernacular and blinders on approach to the recent blogs and comments posted..
Maverick respects many of you, despite the differences, and I hope someday you will extend some civility to future commenters and bloggers.
Mav.. unabashed, true to his convictions.
right or wrong
possee
CC Rockhopper [Member] writes:
Possee: I don't always agree with you but on this account I feel you hit the nail on the head. Its a double edge sword between making a living and paying wages. The problem is you force small business to pay more, they have to raise their rates to cover, then they loose the business and either lay off or go out of business. Cost go too high and the ever decreesing middle class like myself can not afford to come, not only takes away from my motel owner but my pizza guy and the clothing guy and the putt putt guy, ect ect ect.
Never thought I would say this but thanks for making the point.
Never thought I would say this but thanks for making the point.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Well, you know, for my part, it's not about political parties either, it's about CRIMINAL behavior, which has been and continues to be IGNORED!
And we have had it shoved, pushed, snarked down our throats for a long long time. And then when you speak up about it, you are labeled Un-American. America haters. Do you have any idea how that gets to you after a while? The smugness, the total one-sidedeness on THAT side??
News-flash....WE love our country too, and hate what it has been done in the name of it.
And we have had it shoved, pushed, snarked down our throats for a long long time. And then when you speak up about it, you are labeled Un-American. America haters. Do you have any idea how that gets to you after a while? The smugness, the total one-sidedeness on THAT side??
News-flash....WE love our country too, and hate what it has been done in the name of it.
capemom [Member] writes:
20 fewer unemployed, out of a population in Dennis of 9,000, is statistically insignificant. Where are your numbers to prove that jobs in Dennis went to citizens instead of H2B workers?
Does anyone really think that businesses WANT to hire people who barely speak English, people who draw suspicion from government agencies like the INS?
No, businesses WANT to hire people who show up on time, sober, and do the work.
Unfortunately, there aren't enough Americans willing to do the job. Maybe they'll bother to show up for $25/hour, or maybe not. How come the young Brazilians and Bulgarians, despite the fact that the dollar sucks, are willing to live cheaply (it's called roommates--I had 'em when I was young) and work long hours to save money, and Americans are not?
The harsh truth in that many American 20-somethings are lazy. They live at home with Mommy and Daddy and aren't forced to get their hands dirty and earn their own keep.
Does anyone really think that businesses WANT to hire people who barely speak English, people who draw suspicion from government agencies like the INS?
No, businesses WANT to hire people who show up on time, sober, and do the work.
Unfortunately, there aren't enough Americans willing to do the job. Maybe they'll bother to show up for $25/hour, or maybe not. How come the young Brazilians and Bulgarians, despite the fact that the dollar sucks, are willing to live cheaply (it's called roommates--I had 'em when I was young) and work long hours to save money, and Americans are not?
The harsh truth in that many American 20-somethings are lazy. They live at home with Mommy and Daddy and aren't forced to get their hands dirty and earn their own keep.
Andy Buckley [Member] writes:
Capemom, you're excepting those 20-somethings in uniform who volunteer to get more than their hands dirty, right? They have to come home and compete with workers who have luxury of taking First World Wages back to Second and Third World countries.
capemom [Member] writes:
I of course do not mean all 20-somethings. But obviously, if Americans were willing to do this work, they'd be doing it. But they're not willing. So they're not doing it. But Bulgarians are willing. So they're doing it.
When is the last time you heard an American say "I can't find a job"? There are tons of jobs, everywhere. And a "living wage"? Sure, $9/hour doesn't go far. That's why you get roommates--or the ultimate roommate--married. That's why you eat ramen noodles. That's why you say, gee this sucks, I need to get promoted, or go to school and get a degree.
That's why you say--gee Cape Cod is beautiful, people pay $200/night to stay here, maybe that's why the houses cost so much. Maybe that's why I should move to the south or someplace where it's cheaper to live.
Unskilled or lower-skilled American workers people are leaving this state in droves and have been for 10 years, ever since real estate prices went up. Is this a bad thing? People move. So what.
When is the last time you heard an American say "I can't find a job"? There are tons of jobs, everywhere. And a "living wage"? Sure, $9/hour doesn't go far. That's why you get roommates--or the ultimate roommate--married. That's why you eat ramen noodles. That's why you say, gee this sucks, I need to get promoted, or go to school and get a degree.
That's why you say--gee Cape Cod is beautiful, people pay $200/night to stay here, maybe that's why the houses cost so much. Maybe that's why I should move to the south or someplace where it's cheaper to live.
Unskilled or lower-skilled American workers people are leaving this state in droves and have been for 10 years, ever since real estate prices went up. Is this a bad thing? People move. So what.
murrbuck [Member] writes:
the problem lies in the amount paid vs. the amount needed to live. most locals I know sure are hard workers, and I am one of them- it is not beneath me to unpack tractor trailers, stock shelves etc. Ring people up, cut meat, sweep and mop floors. It's not that Americans are really unwilling to do the work it's that the pay sucks. To a H2B worker $6.00-$8.00 and hour is wonderful but to us: It's a kick in the head. How do you raise families or even just survive on that kind of pay? You don't. So people move away- but remember demographics are pretty much the same all around- the wages are lower than what's needed to actually live- everywhere. And many people want to be white collar workers because for some reason someone sitting at a desk makes more money than someone busting their ass pumping gas! What's wrong with this picture? To me the most important job of all is raising kids- but if you have to work 60hrs a week how do you raise them right? something has got to give because it's not normal for real estate to raise about 300% like it has in the past 10 years.
capemom [Member] writes:
murr--what people are paid depends on how many people CAN do it and how many people are WILLING to do it. Anyone can sweep floors, many are willing, and that's why it doesn't pay much.
Most young women CAN be prostitutes, but most aren't willing to, that's why they get a lot more than $6/hr.
Most people can't hit home runs in major league baseball, that's why MLB players get paid a lot. Most women CAN be mothers and most are good ones, it's fulfilling enough that they are willing to do it for free.
There's nothing fair, just or right about reality. The sooner you realize it, the better you'll feel. Embrace it: you're paid what you're worth.
Most young women CAN be prostitutes, but most aren't willing to, that's why they get a lot more than $6/hr.
Most people can't hit home runs in major league baseball, that's why MLB players get paid a lot. Most women CAN be mothers and most are good ones, it's fulfilling enough that they are willing to do it for free.
There's nothing fair, just or right about reality. The sooner you realize it, the better you'll feel. Embrace it: you're paid what you're worth.
Krista [Member] writes:
The only reason temporary labor works here is becuase it only requires temporary housing.
Yes, it is a bad thing when young people have to leave because they can't afford to stay.
Those remaining, the rich and the retired, SHOULD pay more for the priviledge of having others work for them as a result. Instead, they seek or condone migrant workers during the time that they want to be here and to hell with anyone who wants to live here yearound.
I agree that no one has the right to be anywhere. But guess what? Employers do not have the right to hire migrant workers either. They only get to because we collectively allow them to. (Try hiring an illegal alien because you want to.)
That's what the H2B debate is all about. Why should we continue to allow businesses to hire foreign migrant workers if it is to our own detriment?
Yes, it is a bad thing when young people have to leave because they can't afford to stay.
Those remaining, the rich and the retired, SHOULD pay more for the priviledge of having others work for them as a result. Instead, they seek or condone migrant workers during the time that they want to be here and to hell with anyone who wants to live here yearound.
I agree that no one has the right to be anywhere. But guess what? Employers do not have the right to hire migrant workers either. They only get to because we collectively allow them to. (Try hiring an illegal alien because you want to.)
That's what the H2B debate is all about. Why should we continue to allow businesses to hire foreign migrant workers if it is to our own detriment?
murrbuck [Member] writes:
none of that makes sense. I didn't realize that being a hooker was a valid career choice- hell I guess I should've tossed my hard working morals aside and make my fortune doing you know what to who knows who instead of sweeping and stocking. Gee when I was making a LOT of money as a hairdresser I STILL was sweeping the floor. MLB players is a bad example of worthy payscales...good grief! finally, thanks for trying to set me straight but that post made ZERO sense to me. sorry? :)
murrbuck [Member] writes:
oops my post was to Capemom- not Krista :)
Andy Buckley [Member] writes:
H2B is a government subsidy to business. It defies the law of supply and demand because it allows businesses to go outside the system to increase the pool of labor.
Ten years ago, cleaning houses on the Cape paid $20-25 per hour. Now it is half that. Of course you're going to get the bottom of the barrel of the worker pool if you pay that. Cape Codders are not lazy and drunk. You do get what you pay for...
... unless you pay a fee to the feds and bring in a worker from an impoverished country where $12.50 per hour for 6 months can keep your whole family in style. The joke is that the government says, you cannot import your workers for this time unless that state proves you cannot find any workers for a wage we -- the federal government -- determines is fair and will not adversely affect the local wage scale.
This, of course, if patently absurd. You cannot maintain the value of anything if you anything if you increase its supply. Try holding your breath. Not a big deal to you. Now go 75 underwater and hold your breath. Suddenly, oxygen is very valuable.
Ten years ago, cleaning houses on the Cape paid $20-25 per hour. Now it is half that. Of course you're going to get the bottom of the barrel of the worker pool if you pay that. Cape Codders are not lazy and drunk. You do get what you pay for...
... unless you pay a fee to the feds and bring in a worker from an impoverished country where $12.50 per hour for 6 months can keep your whole family in style. The joke is that the government says, you cannot import your workers for this time unless that state proves you cannot find any workers for a wage we -- the federal government -- determines is fair and will not adversely affect the local wage scale.
This, of course, if patently absurd. You cannot maintain the value of anything if you anything if you increase its supply. Try holding your breath. Not a big deal to you. Now go 75 underwater and hold your breath. Suddenly, oxygen is very valuable.
capemom [Member] writes:
The reason businesses are allowed to hire cheap foreign labor is because overall, it benefits more people than it hurts. We like having cheap hotel rooms and restaurant food and our lawns mowed, etc.
At least on Cape Cod, the people who think it benefits them to have cheap foreign workers (business owners, people who have their houses cleaned and lawns mowed) outnumber the people who think it hurts them (low-skilled residents.)
Also, the business owners and affluent residents have more money and power than low-skilled workers. Maybe this isn't right, but it's reality.
With the dollar dropping and homeland security hassles, many Brazilians have packed up and gone home. So you see, rational people are always going to act in their own self-interest and move where the money is, and not whine about there not being any jobs.
At least on Cape Cod, the people who think it benefits them to have cheap foreign workers (business owners, people who have their houses cleaned and lawns mowed) outnumber the people who think it hurts them (low-skilled residents.)
Also, the business owners and affluent residents have more money and power than low-skilled workers. Maybe this isn't right, but it's reality.
With the dollar dropping and homeland security hassles, many Brazilians have packed up and gone home. So you see, rational people are always going to act in their own self-interest and move where the money is, and not whine about there not being any jobs.
Solon [Member] writes:
I think you're all missing one important point: The reason these foreign workers come here and work at "low wages" for our feelthy, exploitative capitalist pig businessmen and homeowners is that the economy STINKS in their own countries!
A couple of years ago, hundreds of Irish workers were on the Cape. How many have you seen this year? Like maybe ZERO? The Irish economy has grown, and now they can work in Ireland for better wages instead of coming to America to work for our devalued US dollar. Like us.
The Bulgarian economy is growing, and fewer Bulgarians have sought to come here this year. They have better jobs in Sofia.
Now the Russians are coming! The Russians are coming!
When the economy of these nations grows to the point they won't have to come here to work, they won't. And then we can address the problem of hiring all local workers IF we can find enough who want to work.
As for low, exploitative wages, I have a friend who hires foreign workers at HIGHER wages than the going rate because the foreigners work harder.
A couple of years ago, hundreds of Irish workers were on the Cape. How many have you seen this year? Like maybe ZERO? The Irish economy has grown, and now they can work in Ireland for better wages instead of coming to America to work for our devalued US dollar. Like us.
The Bulgarian economy is growing, and fewer Bulgarians have sought to come here this year. They have better jobs in Sofia.
Now the Russians are coming! The Russians are coming!
When the economy of these nations grows to the point they won't have to come here to work, they won't. And then we can address the problem of hiring all local workers IF we can find enough who want to work.
As for low, exploitative wages, I have a friend who hires foreign workers at HIGHER wages than the going rate because the foreigners work harder.
CCToday [Member] writes:
Actually Solon, the Brazilians are leaving Cape Cod and Massachusetts in hordes as the Real in their home country which was trading at 3.6 to the dollar only a year ago is now trading at 1.6 to the dollar.
Andy Buckley [Member] writes:
Survey after survey show the American worker is the most productive in the world, even as the wages stagnate. But we can't on the one hand tell our people that if they work hard they can achieve the American dream, then on the other undercut them by importing workers who labor under contracts no American would accept (no moonlighting, and fear of being sent back to Third World poverty if they ask for overtime).
H2B rewards lazy, inefficient businesses. Time to move out of Uncle Sam's basement and get make it in the real worker, local employers.
H2B rewards lazy, inefficient businesses. Time to move out of Uncle Sam's basement and get make it in the real worker, local employers.
possee [Member] writes:
Funny
The 30 or so h2B workers whom I worked with over the summer were delighted to be here, guaranteed 40 hours contracts at a$1.00 more per hour wage than the Americans for the same starting rate.
They loved the capitalism but had an inherent dislike for all Americans..
yes ..liberals and conservatives alike
They all worked second jobs as well..Now all but a few have gone home to Ukraine and the motherland of Putin!
Guess we're enabling the new Russian Military Industrial Complex..
after all..
They need to fund wars as well..
Wonder where the next'Georgia" will be?
The 30 or so h2B workers whom I worked with over the summer were delighted to be here, guaranteed 40 hours contracts at a$1.00 more per hour wage than the Americans for the same starting rate.
They loved the capitalism but had an inherent dislike for all Americans..
yes ..liberals and conservatives alike
They all worked second jobs as well..Now all but a few have gone home to Ukraine and the motherland of Putin!
Guess we're enabling the new Russian Military Industrial Complex..
after all..
They need to fund wars as well..
Wonder where the next'Georgia" will be?
CC Rockhopper [Member] writes:
Solon: One thing I have not seen anyone pick up on either, that is we live in a society where the government pays more for people to sit on their lazy rats rear or do nothing more then have babies that will bring in more unemployment dollars then to go get a job. When the government quits paying people to NOT work then maybe they will go get a job. Lack of workers and more jobs will eventually raise the base wages as well. But then again why work when you can let the someone else pay your way and live in subsidized housing. (I'm not talking about the people who have REAL needs. We all know the kind of people Im talking about).
Buzz [Member] writes:
Amen hopper,
Took a ride down memory land the other day. Went by the old stomping grounds. Old Wharf, campers haven, grindells, sea st beach. It's changed a lot, but the memories were still fresh.
Took a ride down memory land the other day. Went by the old stomping grounds. Old Wharf, campers haven, grindells, sea st beach. It's changed a lot, but the memories were still fresh.
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Or maybe, 'borough-bracketing branches.'