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Cape Wind Electricity Costs Clarified
03/15/09 · 6:08 pm :: posted by Chuck Kleekamp
Recent comments by the opponents of the Cape Wind project have made, and continue to make, the outlandish claim that it will double the cost of your electricity. This is completely untrue and unsubstantiated. Allow me to explain.
The deregulation of the electrical industry in 1997 forced power companies to separate power plant ownership from the distribution facilities ownership. Power plant owners, including wind farm owners, are now called "wholesale energy suppliers," and are required to compete against one another on the basis of cost as sellers of power into the wholesale electricity market.
Retail distribution utilities, like NStar and National Grid, are still regulated utilities with stringent rules and government oversight on what costs, including wholesale purchase costs, they can pass through to their retail customers like you and me.
The oversight and fair administration of New England's wholesale electricity marketplace is the responsibility of the Independent System Operator of New England (ISO NE), a not-for-profit corporation.
There are only two ways power can be sold into that market which are described below.
The Spot Market
About one-quarter of all wholesale electricity is sold on the day-ahead spot market administered by ISO NE. This market is organized with an hourly bid stack where power plants compete by offering their electricity based on fuel cost and other considerations. The stack is arranged from lowest to highest offer.
When the amount of power offered meets the expected load demand a "uniform clearing price" is set for that hour of the day. It should be noted that the same clearing price is paid to all providers whose power is then dispatched into the grid, regardless of their offering price. This auction system is called "pay on peak" as opposed to "pay on offer."
By design and intent, wind power, like hydro power, can be offered into the wholesale market, at zero dollars (the fuel cost). So wind and hydro will always bump the highest bidder off the top of the stack.
As a result wind and hydro power well be dispatched and will always lower the wholesale uniform clearing price. Wind and hydro power bidders are known as "price takers," and will lower the clearing price (paid to the entire spot market) for each hour that they run.
Power Purchase Agreements (PPAs)
The balance, or about three-quarters of all wholesale power transactions in New England, are arranged through highly confidential "power purchase agreements (PPAs)" between power plant owners, (including renewable energy plants like wind farms) and the retail distribution utilities or their suppliers.
It should also be noted that all such contracted power transactions resulting from PPAs are treated by ISO NE as "zero dollars" bids, and are placed at the bottom of the bid stack, since the price has already been confidentially arranged between seller and buyer. The result again is to bump the most expensive spot market bids off the top of the stack and thus lower the wholesale clearing price.
Retail Competition
Retail distribution utilities, like NStar and National Grid, to name just two, must serve any customers that do not buy their supply form a competitive retail marketer. So they will solicit offers to buy wholesale power through PPAs and the spot market for sufficient power to meet their deliveries to you and me on a minute-to-minute basis. The aggregate of the cost of their wholesale power purchases is passed on and is shown on your bill as the "generation charge."
For example, from the NStar web site [1] we see the generation charge for residential customers is 12.7 cents per kilowatt-hour (cents/kWh) for the period from January to June, 2009. This represents the aggregate of their wholesale costs from the PPAs and spot market from which they choose to buy their power.
One public estimate of the cost of electricity from the Cape Wind project is found in the final Environmental Impact Statement (FEIS) [2] issued by the Minerals Management Service which is 12.2 cents/kWh. That is clearly not twice the wholesale price of NStar's 12.7 cents/kWh. And such price for wind power could be fixed for the long term and thereby provide a hedge against long-term run-ups in fossil fuel costs that would be reflected in future market prices.
And while Cape Wind may represent only a very small percentage of NStar's or other retail suppliers overall portfolio who choose to purchase wind power, it will place downward pressure on electricity clearing prices (to the benefit of you and me) during every hour that it runs.
Conclusion
Fixed-price long-term power purchase agreements can be arranged over 10 to 20 years for wind power where the price of fuel is known (zero) are of benefit to all to stabilize the cost of electricity in the face of unpredictable fossil fuel prices.
We are certainly a nation at hazard relying on sources of oil and natural gas from unfriendly and unstable foreign sources. The heavy reliance on these two fuels for generating power set the clearing price of electricity for 80% of all hours in New England [3].
Wind power will always lower the price of electricity, both long and short term, and with no harmful emissions. It certainly will not double the price of your electricity.
By Charles Kleekamp, P.E. Ret.
Vice President, Clean Power Now
Footnotes
[1] The NStar web site is: http://www.nstaronline.com/residential/account_services/rates_tariffs/basic_service.asp#Monthly
[2] Final Environmental Impact Statement, Cape Wind Energy Project, Minerals Management Service, Appendix F, Table 1. January, 2009.
[3] "Ensuring Long Term Reliability of New England's Regional Electricity System," Gordon van Welie, President and CEO, ISO NE, March 30, 2006, Platts Northeast Power Markets Forum.
About Clean Power Now
Clean Power Now is a non-profit grassroots organization informing citizens and empowering them to support viable renewable energy projects and policies, and to secure their local and regional benefits.
We believe that the timely development of such projects, in conjunction with energy efficiency and conservation, will bring about a clean, healthy environment, an improved economy and a more secure, sustainable America.
Our immediate focus is to increase citizen support of offshore wind power in Nantucket Sound.
66 comments
Blog posts and comments are entirely the thoughts and ideas of the people who write them and in no way represent the views of CapeCodToday.com, eCape, Inc., or its employees or owners.
snoopy [Member] writes:
"Cost clarified" Not really. There has been no discussion about maintainence costs.
Cape Wind will be the first off shore wind farms in the US!
For some clarification read this:
http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalcapital/2008/12/01/a-shore-thing-why-offshore-wind-power-will-likely-struggle/
And this:
http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/18/a-struggle-in-europe-for-offshore-wind-power/
Lets see some clarification on maintainence costs.
It's one thing to maintain a generator on a mountain or desert but in the often nasty Nantucket Sound?
Cape Wind will be the first off shore wind farms in the US!
For some clarification read this:
http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalcapital/2008/12/01/a-shore-thing-why-offshore-wind-power-will-likely-struggle/
And this:
http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/18/a-struggle-in-europe-for-offshore-wind-power/
Lets see some clarification on maintainence costs.
It's one thing to maintain a generator on a mountain or desert but in the often nasty Nantucket Sound?
excaper [Member] writes:
Oh Charles, bla bla bla
sarahfromsandwich [Member] writes:
Thank you, Mr. Kleekamp for yet another clear explanation of Cape Wind's costs. I hope that the more people read your concise and intelligent articles, the rumor of Cape Wind creating higher rates will soon be a thing of the past.
bft [Member] writes:
Quote from the DEIS comparing Horseshoe shoal vs other offshore alternatives "The proposed site at Horseshoe shoal has the lowest estimated cost of energy, equal to $0.122/KWhr, or $122/MWhr, while NONE of the sites appear to be PROFITABLE at today's electricity prices. The average locational marginal price for southeast Mass, reported by ISO New England, Inc for the real-time market, was $65.97/MWhr over the 2 years period from Feb. 2005 thru Jan 2007. For Jan 2007 the average price was 58.77/MWhr."
Even the DEIS said the cost of this electricity will be about 2 times the going rate. Chuck you don't agree with the DEIS??? What price will cape wind be producing their electricity at???
Even the DEIS said the cost of this electricity will be about 2 times the going rate. Chuck you don't agree with the DEIS??? What price will cape wind be producing their electricity at???
sarahfromsandwich [Member] writes:
bft Mr. Kleekamp quotes the FEIS, not DEIS. The opposition needs to stop clinging to that statement, which was taken out of context.
bft [Member] writes:
How was it taken out of context? While Nstar rates for the past yr or so are at the 12.7/kWh for residential consumers the commercial rate is 7.906 kwh. And given that both natural gas and oil are trading at prices less then the 2005-2007 time period in the DEIS, rates should follow suit. Not the top of the market prices we see while oil traded to a high of $147 dollars a barrel vs the $46.5 a barrel today.
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
Sarafromsandwwich:
EPA response to the Cape Wind FEIS 2/17/09:
"We also noted that discussion about economic viability of the smaller scale project are complex given statements in the DEIS that the proposed project and other sites are not economically viable. The discussion of economic viability provided in the FEIS in Section 3.2.1.2. is the same as the DEIS, Section 3.2.1.2. of the FEIS states that the site of the proposed action in Nantucket Sound “has the greatest potential”. In addition, the information contained in the Economic Model in Appendix F remains unchanged.”
Appendix F:
“Given the estimated COST OF ENERGY IS $122/MWh, TWICE THAT OF THE CURRENT MARKET AND THIS IS AFTER THE FULL BENEFIT OF TAX AND RPS INCENTIVES, the prospects of entering a long-term purchase power contract would seem low.”
EPA response to the Cape Wind FEIS 2/17/09:
"We also noted that discussion about economic viability of the smaller scale project are complex given statements in the DEIS that the proposed project and other sites are not economically viable. The discussion of economic viability provided in the FEIS in Section 3.2.1.2. is the same as the DEIS, Section 3.2.1.2. of the FEIS states that the site of the proposed action in Nantucket Sound “has the greatest potential”. In addition, the information contained in the Economic Model in Appendix F remains unchanged.”
Appendix F:
“Given the estimated COST OF ENERGY IS $122/MWh, TWICE THAT OF THE CURRENT MARKET AND THIS IS AFTER THE FULL BENEFIT OF TAX AND RPS INCENTIVES, the prospects of entering a long-term purchase power contract would seem low.”
Chuck Kleekamp [Member] writes:
A response to bft.
As noted in my article, there are only two ways a power plant can sell power, either into the day-ahead real time market or through a confidential power purchase agreement with a retail supplier.
I have no idea how Cape Wind will choose to sell their power into the competitive wholesale market.
However, all renewable energy developers that I am aware of, be they landfill gas generators or wind farms, sell their power through long term PPAs as a necessity. To get a loan to finance building a plant, the developer must convince the lending agency that he has a viable financial plan with long term contract to sell the power. Some retail suppliers may want to sign a long term contract to insure their competitive position in the volatile world of gas and oil prices. Time will tell.
If Cape Wind can’t negotiate a long term PPA contract buyer, no loan, no windfarm.
Regards, Chuck Kleekamp
As noted in my article, there are only two ways a power plant can sell power, either into the day-ahead real time market or through a confidential power purchase agreement with a retail supplier.
I have no idea how Cape Wind will choose to sell their power into the competitive wholesale market.
However, all renewable energy developers that I am aware of, be they landfill gas generators or wind farms, sell their power through long term PPAs as a necessity. To get a loan to finance building a plant, the developer must convince the lending agency that he has a viable financial plan with long term contract to sell the power. Some retail suppliers may want to sign a long term contract to insure their competitive position in the volatile world of gas and oil prices. Time will tell.
If Cape Wind can’t negotiate a long term PPA contract buyer, no loan, no windfarm.
Regards, Chuck Kleekamp
maverick [Member] writes:
Chuck...thanks for the info.
No response to my question regarding your comment "Wind power will always lower the price of electricity"?
I know this process is getting old for you, me and the readers. But I started asking questions years ago about dredging, radar, endangered bird kills and on and on.
Maybe the questions would have stopped if we were given honest answers. As in "where has wind power lowered the cost of electricity in the US"?
No response to my question regarding your comment "Wind power will always lower the price of electricity"?
I know this process is getting old for you, me and the readers. But I started asking questions years ago about dredging, radar, endangered bird kills and on and on.
Maybe the questions would have stopped if we were given honest answers. As in "where has wind power lowered the cost of electricity in the US"?
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
Mr. Kleekamp:
"Where has wind power lowered the cost of electricity in the US?"
According to the world's largest manufacturer of wind turbines, Vestas' Chief, who was asked about Cape Wind as reported in the Boston Globe on 9/21/08, stated:
“And, therefore, I am really wondering why anybody wants to put them up offshore because it’s twice the price. So just as an outsider, I am just scratching my head saying, “Why?”
Maverick is extending considerable latitude without specifying "offshore" as "apples to apples" in his question.
Please provide Maverick with a respectful answer to his respectful question, Mr. Kleekamp.
"Where has wind power lowered the cost of electricity in the US?"
According to the world's largest manufacturer of wind turbines, Vestas' Chief, who was asked about Cape Wind as reported in the Boston Globe on 9/21/08, stated:
“And, therefore, I am really wondering why anybody wants to put them up offshore because it’s twice the price. So just as an outsider, I am just scratching my head saying, “Why?”
Maverick is extending considerable latitude without specifying "offshore" as "apples to apples" in his question.
Please provide Maverick with a respectful answer to his respectful question, Mr. Kleekamp.
piggie [Member] writes:
"Where has wind power lowered the cost of electricity in the US?"
Oh, COME OFF IT Barbara-
That's the weakest argument i've heard you
offer yet--
You know darn right well that wind power
has'nt even gotten "off the ground"
in this country.
You're slipping, Barb..........
Oh, COME OFF IT Barbara-
That's the weakest argument i've heard you
offer yet--
You know darn right well that wind power
has'nt even gotten "off the ground"
in this country.
You're slipping, Barb..........
possee [Member] writes:
Wait til CW is suppyling the grid..
Then, if anyone remembers, compare the new rates with the present rates.
We were all told we Cape Codders would be supplied with up to 75% of our energy by Cape Wind alone..
Wait and see.
Then, let the arguments begin..
Up to now, it's all conjecture and posturing.
We were all told the big dig was a bargain too...hmmmm.
possee
Then, if anyone remembers, compare the new rates with the present rates.
We were all told we Cape Codders would be supplied with up to 75% of our energy by Cape Wind alone..
Wait and see.
Then, let the arguments begin..
Up to now, it's all conjecture and posturing.
We were all told the big dig was a bargain too...hmmmm.
possee
Chuck Kleekamp [Member] writes:
A response to maverick
One local example is Hull wind where the cost of their electricity has declined three times in recent years according to Malcom Brown a member of the Hull Municipal Light Board where their two turbines generate about 12 percent of the town’s needs. “As a result of the turbines, we pay 12 cents per kilowatt hour in comparison to other forms of power which cost us 19 or 20 cents,” the town’s light board Chairman Pat Cannon.
With little penetration in the U.S. electric markets overall, wind energy has managed to keep prices from growing even higher due to the increase in natural gas fueled generation.
For example, largely due to the increase in gas prices, NStar’s retail generation charge has gone from 3.9 cents/kWh in 2001 to 12.7 cents/kWh now.
As I said, Cape Wind will always lower the wholesale price to retail suppliers. If not, why would the NStars of the world buy power from Cape Wind? Again, it’s a cost competitive market.
Regards,
Chuck K.
One local example is Hull wind where the cost of their electricity has declined three times in recent years according to Malcom Brown a member of the Hull Municipal Light Board where their two turbines generate about 12 percent of the town’s needs. “As a result of the turbines, we pay 12 cents per kilowatt hour in comparison to other forms of power which cost us 19 or 20 cents,” the town’s light board Chairman Pat Cannon.
With little penetration in the U.S. electric markets overall, wind energy has managed to keep prices from growing even higher due to the increase in natural gas fueled generation.
For example, largely due to the increase in gas prices, NStar’s retail generation charge has gone from 3.9 cents/kWh in 2001 to 12.7 cents/kWh now.
As I said, Cape Wind will always lower the wholesale price to retail suppliers. If not, why would the NStars of the world buy power from Cape Wind? Again, it’s a cost competitive market.
Regards,
Chuck K.
maverick [Member] writes:
Thanks Chuck...I apologize for not being more specific in my question regarding your comment "Wind power will always lower the price of electricity"?
I should have specified offshore vs. land wind power. My mistake. I believe Hull is onshore.
Your thought..."With little penetration in the U.S. electric markets overall, wind energy has managed to keep prices from growing even higher due to the increase in natural gas fueled generation."
Please give me an example of an offshore wind factory lowering the price of electricity.
Thanks
I should have specified offshore vs. land wind power. My mistake. I believe Hull is onshore.
Your thought..."With little penetration in the U.S. electric markets overall, wind energy has managed to keep prices from growing even higher due to the increase in natural gas fueled generation."
Please give me an example of an offshore wind factory lowering the price of electricity.
Thanks
petapiperpickedapeck [Member] writes:
piggie...
I'll share this -only- with you...
I hardly ever share 'FACTS' with the antiwindchrists so keep this under your hat otherwise it will blow them outta the water... I mean "National Treasure"...:
"Electric rates in West Texas decrease" (yeah, go down)
Prices down, production is up ... What's next?
Saturday, February 28, 2009
Electric rates available to West Texans are less expensive, on average, than they were two years ago.
In addition, residential rates offered in Abilene and San Angelo are among the lowest in the deregulated parts of Texas -- in contrast to two years ago when West Central Texans were paying some of the highest rates in the state.
Energy experts point to several factors that may have caused prices in this region to drop faster than they have elsewhere:
• Increased wind energy production.
• Competition between electric providers.
• The lack of an advanced meter program, for which customers in other parts of the state pay a surcharge.
http://www.reporternews.com/news/2009/feb/28/power-trip-prices-down-production-is-up-whats/
Ha!
I'll share this -only- with you...
I hardly ever share 'FACTS' with the antiwindchrists so keep this under your hat otherwise it will blow them outta the water... I mean "National Treasure"...:
"Electric rates in West Texas decrease" (yeah, go down)
Prices down, production is up ... What's next?
Saturday, February 28, 2009
Electric rates available to West Texans are less expensive, on average, than they were two years ago.
In addition, residential rates offered in Abilene and San Angelo are among the lowest in the deregulated parts of Texas -- in contrast to two years ago when West Central Texans were paying some of the highest rates in the state.
Energy experts point to several factors that may have caused prices in this region to drop faster than they have elsewhere:
• Increased wind energy production.
• Competition between electric providers.
• The lack of an advanced meter program, for which customers in other parts of the state pay a surcharge.
http://www.reporternews.com/news/2009/feb/28/power-trip-prices-down-production-is-up-whats/
Ha!
petapiperpickedapeck [Member] writes:
P.s. Notice how maverick thinks there is a diff between the electricity generated from land based turbines than those on water?...
Thinks those from CAPE WIND might get a little soggy... Like him!
He's sooooooooo funny.
Thinks those from CAPE WIND might get a little soggy... Like him!
He's sooooooooo funny.
piggie [Member] writes:
That's really good peck-
The facts look like there in order
so i'll go check out that link
Sssssshhhh---Don't let Barb find out.
She running out of ammo BIG TIME.
Were gonna get her a job at the
Copley Square Library in Boston
when it's all over.
Mav--
Nah-- I signed a non-agression pact with him-- can't go there.
The facts look like there in order
so i'll go check out that link
Sssssshhhh---Don't let Barb find out.
She running out of ammo BIG TIME.
Were gonna get her a job at the
Copley Square Library in Boston
when it's all over.
Mav--
Nah-- I signed a non-agression pact with him-- can't go there.
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
"Wind is free--There is currently no property right to wind--but wind energy is expensive. In fact, it is "the most expensive form of generation we have in Texas."
"The true cost of electricity from wind is much higher than wind advocates admit. Wind energy advocates ignore key elements of the true cost of electricity from wind, including: (I) The cost of tax breaks and subsidies which shift tax burden and costs from 'wind farm' owners to ordinary taxpayers and electricity customers. (II) The cost of providing backup power to balance the intermittent and volatile output from wind turbines. (III) The full, true cost of transmitting electricity from 'wind farms' to electricity consumers and the extra burden on grid management."
http://www.texaspolicy.com/pdf/2008-09-RR10-WindEnergy-dt-new.pdf
"The true cost of electricity from wind is much higher than wind advocates admit. Wind energy advocates ignore key elements of the true cost of electricity from wind, including: (I) The cost of tax breaks and subsidies which shift tax burden and costs from 'wind farm' owners to ordinary taxpayers and electricity customers. (II) The cost of providing backup power to balance the intermittent and volatile output from wind turbines. (III) The full, true cost of transmitting electricity from 'wind farms' to electricity consumers and the extra burden on grid management."
http://www.texaspolicy.com/pdf/2008-09-RR10-WindEnergy-dt-new.pdf
maverick [Member] writes:
Peck...is this a multiple choice exam?
A - Increased wind energy production.
B - Competition between electric providers.
C - The lack of an advanced meter program, for which customers in other parts of the state pay a surcharge.
I did well on the SAT exams. Sounds like "C" to me.
Your a terrible prof. but still enjoy you. Have a good night.
A - Increased wind energy production.
B - Competition between electric providers.
C - The lack of an advanced meter program, for which customers in other parts of the state pay a surcharge.
I did well on the SAT exams. Sounds like "C" to me.
Your a terrible prof. but still enjoy you. Have a good night.
piggie [Member] writes:
http://www.texaspolicy.com/pdf/2008-09-RR10-WindEnergy-dt-new.pdf
I just downloaded that
whopping 403kB PDF file
and i'm reading it.
I'll be back to correct
someone's erroneous post(s) a little later....
I just downloaded that
whopping 403kB PDF file
and i'm reading it.
I'll be back to correct
someone's erroneous post(s) a little later....
petapiperpickedapeck [Member] writes:
Ah yes... Shall I post again the 'Costs of fossil fuels."?
Cough... Hack... Spit!
Cough... Hack... Spit!
petapiperpickedapeck [Member] writes:
Read the entire piece & weep crockodile tears if you must...
You old salty dog you...
Yur outta ya league mate`... Stick with the facts on fish...
At least you know... SUMTIN'!
When the Blues runnin'?... Need some for the BBQ.
;~)
You old salty dog you...
Yur outta ya league mate`... Stick with the facts on fish...
At least you know... SUMTIN'!
When the Blues runnin'?... Need some for the BBQ.
;~)
piggie [Member] writes:
Taken from above PDF link:
Page 3
there is no doubt that wind power should be part
of Texas’ energy supply.
Page 5
FPL Energy is also the largest wind energy electricity supply. According to the Energy Information Ad-
ministration, wind’s percentage of total net* generation
developer in Texas, with 13 wind projects totaling
2,103.7 installed MW, as of March 31, 2008
If wind energy is unreliable (as some claim) why would
BILLIONS of $$$ be invested into such a project???
Page 11
“The reliability of
wind turbines, measured in terms of availability to make
electricity when the wind is blowing, is better than 98
percent.”38 And, according to the AWEA, “Modern wind
turbines are equipped with high-tech computers and
power electronics that process over 200 types of data,
from wind speeds and oil temperature to voltage dips
on the grid. ‘Smart’ wind turbines can help make the
‘Smart’ wind turbines can help make the
electricity transmission system more reliable.
Page 3
there is no doubt that wind power should be part
of Texas’ energy supply.
Page 5
FPL Energy is also the largest wind energy electricity supply. According to the Energy Information Ad-
ministration, wind’s percentage of total net* generation
developer in Texas, with 13 wind projects totaling
2,103.7 installed MW, as of March 31, 2008
If wind energy is unreliable (as some claim) why would
BILLIONS of $$$ be invested into such a project???
Page 11
“The reliability of
wind turbines, measured in terms of availability to make
electricity when the wind is blowing, is better than 98
percent.”38 And, according to the AWEA, “Modern wind
turbines are equipped with high-tech computers and
power electronics that process over 200 types of data,
from wind speeds and oil temperature to voltage dips
on the grid. ‘Smart’ wind turbines can help make the
‘Smart’ wind turbines can help make the
electricity transmission system more reliable.
petapiperpickedapeck [Member] writes:
And all this time piggie...
Blabs & the D'alliance been telling us all that wind turbines are...
Dumb?
You mean they might have...
LIED???
Blabs & the D'alliance been telling us all that wind turbines are...
Dumb?
You mean they might have...
LIED???
piggie [Member] writes:
I could do this for a couple of hrs.
and I just might if this site does'nt
object.
Again, all this info is taken from:
http://www.texaspolicy.com/pdf/2008-09-RR10-WindEnergy-dt-new.pdf
Page 19
According to Michael Goggin, an electricity-industry analyst at
AWEA, “the money saved by decreasing fossil fuel use
with new wind energy would drastically outweigh the
cost of the new transmission.”65 Paul Sadler, executive di-
rector of The Wind Coalition, agrees:
This investment will pay for itself in two years and
will displace more expensive energy, offering a
savings to Texas consumers of about $3 billion per
year....Transmission costs will be more than offset
by the savings realized from lower fuel costs as we
bring additional wind capacity onto the grid
There's more, that's just the first batch.
and I just might if this site does'nt
object.
Again, all this info is taken from:
http://www.texaspolicy.com/pdf/2008-09-RR10-WindEnergy-dt-new.pdf
Page 19
According to Michael Goggin, an electricity-industry analyst at
AWEA, “the money saved by decreasing fossil fuel use
with new wind energy would drastically outweigh the
cost of the new transmission.”65 Paul Sadler, executive di-
rector of The Wind Coalition, agrees:
This investment will pay for itself in two years and
will displace more expensive energy, offering a
savings to Texas consumers of about $3 billion per
year....Transmission costs will be more than offset
by the savings realized from lower fuel costs as we
bring additional wind capacity onto the grid
There's more, that's just the first batch.
piggie [Member] writes:
The Alliance-- Yes.
Barb has'nt smashed me YET.
So i'll be good to her.
Why can't I go up against A GUY??
I don't want to fight a lady!!!
Barb has'nt smashed me YET.
So i'll be good to her.
Why can't I go up against A GUY??
I don't want to fight a lady!!!
piggie [Member] writes:
Page 22
T. Boone Pickens says we should replace natural gas with wind
for generating electricity. The Sierra Club sees wind and other renewable energy sources as replacements for coal.
Page 23
Additionally, unlike conventional-power generators, wind-energy providers do not have to pay ERCOT for
generation-schedule deviations.
The result of this is that non-wind generators, and primarily customers, must bear the cost of ERCOT’s
deploying regulation and other reserves when there are
large deviations from their schedules.
Page 25
The financial handouts available to wind developers are so generous that, in Texas, many wind-energy produc-
ers “will offer wind power at no cost or even pay to have their electricity moved on the grid, a response common-
ly referred to as ‘negative pricing.’ Wind providers have an incentive to sell power even at negative prices be-
cause they still receive the federal production tax (PTC)
credit and renewable energy credits.
piggie [Member] writes:
By the way--
This report is slanted (against wind power) like a cathedral roof!
I'll have to go find my own
sources, I guess.
This report is slanted (against wind power) like a cathedral roof!
I'll have to go find my own
sources, I guess.
maverick [Member] writes:
Peck...no interest in being in your or anyone else's league. The Cape Wind sham is an extension of everything that has put this country in the trash heap.
You and your significant other act like the saviors of the earth. You are both in it for money and Nantucket Sound be damned. Did you work for AIG in your past?
You and your significant other act like the saviors of the earth. You are both in it for money and Nantucket Sound be damned. Did you work for AIG in your past?
piggie [Member] writes:
Page 32
Both environmental benefits and concerns accompany wind-energy development. As a result, wind energy
finds support and opposition from environmental and
conservation groups.
The spinning of wind-turbine blades produces no pollution. According to Michael Goggin.
Wind energy provides a number of environmental
benefits...Emissions of carbon dioxide (CO2) from
Texas’ electricity generation sector fell by 2 percent
from 2000 to 2006, during which time wind energy grew from producing 178 MW to 3,000 MW.
In contrast, CO2 emissions from the electric sector
increased by 25 percent from 1990-2000, before wind energy became a major part of Texas’ generation mix. Based on the results of recent stud-
ies by ERCOT and GE, adding 11,600 MW of wind energy in Texas would reduce CO2 emissions by
22 million tons per year, sulfur dioxide emissions
by 18,000 tons per year, and nitrogen oxide emissions by 8,000 tons per year.
Both environmental benefits and concerns accompany wind-energy development. As a result, wind energy
finds support and opposition from environmental and
conservation groups.
The spinning of wind-turbine blades produces no pollution. According to Michael Goggin.
Wind energy provides a number of environmental
benefits...Emissions of carbon dioxide (CO2) from
Texas’ electricity generation sector fell by 2 percent
from 2000 to 2006, during which time wind energy grew from producing 178 MW to 3,000 MW.
In contrast, CO2 emissions from the electric sector
increased by 25 percent from 1990-2000, before wind energy became a major part of Texas’ generation mix. Based on the results of recent stud-
ies by ERCOT and GE, adding 11,600 MW of wind energy in Texas would reduce CO2 emissions by
22 million tons per year, sulfur dioxide emissions
by 18,000 tons per year, and nitrogen oxide emissions by 8,000 tons per year.
piggie [Member] writes:
Here's something on
the bird "issue":
Wind-farm proponents dismiss avian-death arguments as misleading.
The AWEA writes:
For every 10,000 birds killed by human
activities LESS THAN ONE DEATH
is caused by turbines.
HELLLOOO BARB--
This is what you post
about ALL THE TIME.
I'm only using the info you pointed us
to and it's all accurate- you can check
it yourself....
Wind energy development’s overall impact on birds is extremely low compared with other human-related activities. No matter how extensively
wind is developed in the future, bird deaths from wind energy are unlikely to be ever more than a
small fraction of bird deaths caused by other human-related sources, such as cats and buildings.
I gotta take a break--
Doing cut-and-paste from a PDF
is a Royal B-tch even on Linux.
the bird "issue":
Wind-farm proponents dismiss avian-death arguments as misleading.
The AWEA writes:
For every 10,000 birds killed by human
activities LESS THAN ONE DEATH
is caused by turbines.
HELLLOOO BARB--
This is what you post
about ALL THE TIME.
I'm only using the info you pointed us
to and it's all accurate- you can check
it yourself....
Wind energy development’s overall impact on birds is extremely low compared with other human-related activities. No matter how extensively
wind is developed in the future, bird deaths from wind energy are unlikely to be ever more than a
small fraction of bird deaths caused by other human-related sources, such as cats and buildings.
I gotta take a break--
Doing cut-and-paste from a PDF
is a Royal B-tch even on Linux.
petapiperpickedapeck [Member] writes:
Sorry to blow you outta yer boat mav...
I, nor my significant (I might add) other have any financial interest in, nor stand to gain one DIME from CAPE WIND being built nor its ultimate success.
Regardless...
If you consider CW "an extension of everything that has put this country in the trash heap."...
Just what do you consider what the FOSSIL FUEL industry has done for...
-US-?
And...
The AIR we breath...
The WATER we drink...
The FOOD (& FISH) we eat...
Tell me that.
You are blinded by the FACT that we -ARE- poisoning ourselves...
By...
BURNING FOSSIL FUELS...
To the degree we do.
We must...
Start somewhere:
CAPE WIND...
Is a START.
P.s. Not much I resent or take offence in the way of comment; but to suggest I am 'on the take' as far as this project is concerned...
Personally, deeply offends me.
For one significant reason...
It, is not FACTUAL.
AIG...
On the otherhand.
Has offered me -REALLY BIG- bonus.
(I might take it)
I, nor my significant (I might add) other have any financial interest in, nor stand to gain one DIME from CAPE WIND being built nor its ultimate success.
Regardless...
If you consider CW "an extension of everything that has put this country in the trash heap."...
Just what do you consider what the FOSSIL FUEL industry has done for...
-US-?
And...
The AIR we breath...
The WATER we drink...
The FOOD (& FISH) we eat...
Tell me that.
You are blinded by the FACT that we -ARE- poisoning ourselves...
By...
BURNING FOSSIL FUELS...
To the degree we do.
We must...
Start somewhere:
CAPE WIND...
Is a START.
P.s. Not much I resent or take offence in the way of comment; but to suggest I am 'on the take' as far as this project is concerned...
Personally, deeply offends me.
For one significant reason...
It, is not FACTUAL.
AIG...
On the otherhand.
Has offered me -REALLY BIG- bonus.
(I might take it)
piggie [Member] writes:
I forgot to add--
The bird "issue"
was from page 35
The bird "issue"
was from page 35
petapiperpickedapeck [Member] writes:
Whoa piggie!...
We got us a PRO-WIND...
-PIG-...
On -OUR- side!
You go guy/girl...
FACTOID!
:~)
We got us a PRO-WIND...
-PIG-...
On -OUR- side!
You go guy/girl...
FACTOID!
:~)
petapiperpickedapeck [Member] writes:
Mav...
I asked you (at least once)...
When are the blues running?
After all...
I told you the FACT...
CAPE WIND...
Not...
Going to...
DREDGE...
Unlike your fishing buddies do.
FESS UP!...
Got a hankerin fer blue.
I asked you (at least once)...
When are the blues running?
After all...
I told you the FACT...
CAPE WIND...
Not...
Going to...
DREDGE...
Unlike your fishing buddies do.
FESS UP!...
Got a hankerin fer blue.
piggie [Member] writes:
Page 35
Mike Logsdon, director of development for Invenergy, the company develop-
ing the wind farm highlighted in The Oregonian article, does not find Pierpont’s findings credible. “We’ve had a number of other wind farms over the country and residents living by them and never had any
problems", said Logsdon.
Perhaps the greatest virtue of wind energy, from a fuel-cost perspective, is that wind is free. Combined with the
financial help the PTC provides wind-energy developers (see Incentives/Subsidies section), the free nature of wind as a fuel source leads to wind energy’s extremely
low marginal cost; and considering the high cost of oil and natural gas—the latter being the dominant fuel
source in Texas—wind as a free fuel source is highly attractive.
Incidentally, peck, I am a
"he piggie". This is me:
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1405734695&v=feed&viewas=1405734695
Mike Logsdon, director of development for Invenergy, the company develop-
ing the wind farm highlighted in The Oregonian article, does not find Pierpont’s findings credible. “We’ve had a number of other wind farms over the country and residents living by them and never had any
problems", said Logsdon.
Perhaps the greatest virtue of wind energy, from a fuel-cost perspective, is that wind is free. Combined with the
financial help the PTC provides wind-energy developers (see Incentives/Subsidies section), the free nature of wind as a fuel source leads to wind energy’s extremely
low marginal cost; and considering the high cost of oil and natural gas—the latter being the dominant fuel
source in Texas—wind as a free fuel source is highly attractive.
Incidentally, peck, I am a
"he piggie". This is me:
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1405734695&v=feed&viewas=1405734695
piggie [Member] writes:
And--
This is the FUNNIEST
video you will ever
see in your life
with 160,000+ hits
so far:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lqDxKQ300k
This is my latest achievement
which took TWO WEEKS to create:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB_w_M4z8lg
DR STRANGELOVE with Peter Sellers
with "hidden scenes" very, very funny.
This is my poor lonely
Pre-70s Sci-fi "Blog"
http://zoppy.blogspot.com
And this is my WONDERFUL
Youtube channel with 250
of the best b-movies,
Pre-70s sci-fi and
other stuff:
http://youtube.com/randywilharm
Okay, i'm back on topic---
This is the FUNNIEST
video you will ever
see in your life
with 160,000+ hits
so far:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lqDxKQ300k
This is my latest achievement
which took TWO WEEKS to create:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB_w_M4z8lg
DR STRANGELOVE with Peter Sellers
with "hidden scenes" very, very funny.
This is my poor lonely
Pre-70s Sci-fi "Blog"
http://zoppy.blogspot.com
And this is my WONDERFUL
Youtube channel with 250
of the best b-movies,
Pre-70s sci-fi and
other stuff:
http://youtube.com/randywilharm
Okay, i'm back on topic---
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
Piggie:
I'm offering two more reports for your hopeful evaluation.
Why do you suppose 292 signatory organisations from 15 European countries are calling for moratorium on wind energy?
http://www.epaw.org/
Perhaps because...
Telegraph UK
‘Wind farms fail to deliver value for money, report claims’
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
newstopics/politics/2910739/Wind-farms-fail-to-deliver-value-for-money-report-claims.html
This report is by the California Public Utility Commission:
Reuters
November 7, 2008
‘California study shows high cost of renewable power’
“While renewable power one day may compete with baseload power sources such as natural gas, coal and nuclear, it currently is more costly, and much less dependable.”
http://in.reuters.com/article/
governmentFilingsNews/idINN0629356520081107?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0
I'm offering two more reports for your hopeful evaluation.
Why do you suppose 292 signatory organisations from 15 European countries are calling for moratorium on wind energy?
http://www.epaw.org/
Perhaps because...
Telegraph UK
‘Wind farms fail to deliver value for money, report claims’
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
newstopics/politics/2910739/Wind-farms-fail-to-deliver-value-for-money-report-claims.html
This report is by the California Public Utility Commission:
Reuters
November 7, 2008
‘California study shows high cost of renewable power’
“While renewable power one day may compete with baseload power sources such as natural gas, coal and nuclear, it currently is more costly, and much less dependable.”
http://in.reuters.com/article/
governmentFilingsNews/idINN0629356520081107?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0
piggie [Member] writes:
I'll look through them, Barbara
but I think by now you're not
about to hand me a cookie.
I'll give it a look.....
but I think by now you're not
about to hand me a cookie.
I'll give it a look.....
piggie [Member] writes:
And don't forget that
Thomas Edison once
said AC current is dangerous.
You're using it this moment.
Thomas Edison once
said AC current is dangerous.
You're using it this moment.
somebunny [Member] writes:
sorry to insert my two cents in.. piggie just peeked at your facebook, yup you are he. hiya Peck... keep up the good work ;)
piggie [Member] writes:
1.EPAW is against ALL Wind Power
and LIKE THE ALLIANCE offers NO
alternative, This is spooky.
2. "The Telegraph" cites this as
(about the) primary reason against wind power:
Even with modern turbines, wind farms are unable to operate at full capacity because of the unreliable nature of Britain's wind.
Problem with this is that we're
not in Britain. It's their technology
they are probably working with too.
3. THANKS FOR THE COOKIE BARB!!!
On Tuesday, California voters overwhelmingly -- 65 percent of the vote -- rejected a statewide ballot measure that would have required 50 percent of power to be generated from renewables by 2025. The measure was fought by both environmentalists and utilities because, they said, it was poorly drafted and would hinder renewable power development."
You point me to THIS????
The first thing it says is that the
California State Legislature can't
even draft a bill right to get this started.
What's going on here???
Okay, i'll read the rest but I
doubt i'll find much.
and LIKE THE ALLIANCE offers NO
alternative, This is spooky.
2. "The Telegraph" cites this as
(about the) primary reason against wind power:
Even with modern turbines, wind farms are unable to operate at full capacity because of the unreliable nature of Britain's wind.
Problem with this is that we're
not in Britain. It's their technology
they are probably working with too.
3. THANKS FOR THE COOKIE BARB!!!
On Tuesday, California voters overwhelmingly -- 65 percent of the vote -- rejected a statewide ballot measure that would have required 50 percent of power to be generated from renewables by 2025. The measure was fought by both environmentalists and utilities because, they said, it was poorly drafted and would hinder renewable power development."
You point me to THIS????
The first thing it says is that the
California State Legislature can't
even draft a bill right to get this started.
What's going on here???
Okay, i'll read the rest but I
doubt i'll find much.
piggie [Member] writes:
Somebunny- Do I know you?
somebunny [Member] writes:
piggie: no you don't. Just doing my daily reading and saw your post to fb. I usually read most links that are posted.
piggie [Member] writes:
Again, EPAW is really
like a twin sister of SOS.
I don't see any ALTERNATIVES
to wind listed there.
That's a little spooky
to me but not to Big Business.
The Brits (telegraph) have there own
thing going. It's their task, their job
and there's many differences
between U.S. and them.
Let me look at #3 a little more....
like a twin sister of SOS.
I don't see any ALTERNATIVES
to wind listed there.
That's a little spooky
to me but not to Big Business.
The Brits (telegraph) have there own
thing going. It's their task, their job
and there's many differences
between U.S. and them.
Let me look at #3 a little more....
piggie [Member] writes:
Somebunny-
Oh, o.k. it's just the way you posted
"yeah that's him"-- I thought
I might have went to school with
you or something.
Cute name BTW
Oh, o.k. it's just the way you posted
"yeah that's him"-- I thought
I might have went to school with
you or something.
Cute name BTW
somebunny [Member] writes:
thanks... sorry for the scare lol
piggie [Member] writes:
I know Barb's throwing up a smokescreen
but i'm wondering wether she
looked at #3 close enough.
Hell, that PDF file was slanted
like a glacier and I still pulled
a few good things from it.
but i'm wondering wether she
looked at #3 close enough.
Hell, that PDF file was slanted
like a glacier and I still pulled
a few good things from it.
piggie [Member] writes:
bunny-
quite to the contrary-
I thought I might had found an
old friend.
no scare at all
quite to the contrary-
I thought I might had found an
old friend.
no scare at all
petapiperpickedapeck [Member] writes:
So funny to see you note succinctly what most us earlier commenters have picked up over the years piggie...
Blabs loves to cut & paste all kinds of (crap) stuff out of this 'n that...
And when you actually do go and check out most of what she quotes...
It...
More often than not...
Refutes her basic premise.
I don't have the time nor inclination to point it out time and again...
Other paid letter writers use the same lines of BS too...
So my friend...
Have some (a lot) of fun with this (fake blonde) woman...
Who professes to be ~only~ concerned for the sake of 'ol Cape Cod...
While living in Northboro...
The adjacent town of one of the incorporators of the D'alliance to 'Protect' the -VIEW of the FEW-...
Richard Egan...
Who just happens to live in Southboro...
(And she has -NO-... business/financial/personal relationship with the man... Go figure)
Billionaire & part-time resident of none other than OYSTER HARBORS... Osterville's gated community.
As Mav likes to say:
"Hmmmmmmm"?
Blabs loves to cut & paste all kinds of (crap) stuff out of this 'n that...
And when you actually do go and check out most of what she quotes...
It...
More often than not...
Refutes her basic premise.
I don't have the time nor inclination to point it out time and again...
Other paid letter writers use the same lines of BS too...
So my friend...
Have some (a lot) of fun with this (fake blonde) woman...
Who professes to be ~only~ concerned for the sake of 'ol Cape Cod...
While living in Northboro...
The adjacent town of one of the incorporators of the D'alliance to 'Protect' the -VIEW of the FEW-...
Richard Egan...
Who just happens to live in Southboro...
(And she has -NO-... business/financial/personal relationship with the man... Go figure)
Billionaire & part-time resident of none other than OYSTER HARBORS... Osterville's gated community.
As Mav likes to say:
"Hmmmmmmm"?
piggie [Member] writes:
Yeah Richard Egan--
He starred in GOG (1954)
it's on my Youtube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W0_xJl_g2A
He also starred in a lot of good
b-movies
in the 50s.
Barb's got "my kind" of people
for friends, i'll say.
And here I am opposing their cause.
God life is strange.
He starred in GOG (1954)
it's on my Youtube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W0_xJl_g2A
He also starred in a lot of good
b-movies
in the 50s.
Barb's got "my kind" of people
for friends, i'll say.
And here I am opposing their cause.
God life is strange.
petapiperpickedapeck [Member] writes:
Heya somebunny!... Thanks.
P.s. Whatchabeendoin?... Send a note.
P.s. Whatchabeendoin?... Send a note.
somebunny [Member] writes:
hi peck ;-) will send ya an email. Nice to have met ya piggie, ttys peck... this bunny is goin' to bed.
piggie [Member] writes:
Nice to have met you bunny
have a good bunny-sleep
have a good bunny-sleep
piggie [Member] writes:
BOOST in G.E. Turbine sales:
http://www.reuters.com/article/internal_ReutersNewsRoom_BehindTheScenes_MOLT/idUSTRE52F66920090316
"Last year we announced the introduction of our 2.5 MW machine which we think will adapt well in Europe," Victor Abate, vice president for the renewables arm of GE Energy, told Reuters in an interview."
"There are many factors in the air: the financial crisis, the capital crunch, the recession and now you have $800 billion in a stimulus package and an administration which is focused on alternative energies," Abate added.
http://www.reuters.com/article/internal_ReutersNewsRoom_BehindTheScenes_MOLT/idUSTRE52F66920090316
"Last year we announced the introduction of our 2.5 MW machine which we think will adapt well in Europe," Victor Abate, vice president for the renewables arm of GE Energy, told Reuters in an interview."
"There are many factors in the air: the financial crisis, the capital crunch, the recession and now you have $800 billion in a stimulus package and an administration which is focused on alternative energies," Abate added.
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
Piggie and Carl:
'Offshore' is not viable/
February 12, 2009
Bloomberg News
"Offshore wind-energy installations in Northern Europe have lost appeal among financiers because of increased costs and difficulties in building and running equipment miles at sea, a German banker said.”
Senior VP of Vestas Peter Kruse: "The only way forward is more turbines in virgin ground onshore," and, "Politicians want offshore so they can avoid the Nimby discussion, but they are allowing a tiny minority to force the rest of the population to pay double for renewable energy.'
"GE Wind Energy Europe Managing Director Rainer Broring states the 3.6 MW GE 3.6l has been shelved for the moment, "GE's initial plan to install a prototype this year will therefore not materialise yet..."
"GE Wind, the subsidiary of the American energy giant General Electric, has left the risky business at sea altogether. Although seven 3.6-MW turbines have operated since 2003 ten kilometres off the Irish port of Arklow, the more secure business is on shore, says a spokesman of the company."
'Offshore' is not viable/
February 12, 2009
Bloomberg News
"Offshore wind-energy installations in Northern Europe have lost appeal among financiers because of increased costs and difficulties in building and running equipment miles at sea, a German banker said.”
Senior VP of Vestas Peter Kruse: "The only way forward is more turbines in virgin ground onshore," and, "Politicians want offshore so they can avoid the Nimby discussion, but they are allowing a tiny minority to force the rest of the population to pay double for renewable energy.'
"GE Wind Energy Europe Managing Director Rainer Broring states the 3.6 MW GE 3.6l has been shelved for the moment, "GE's initial plan to install a prototype this year will therefore not materialise yet..."
"GE Wind, the subsidiary of the American energy giant General Electric, has left the risky business at sea altogether. Although seven 3.6-MW turbines have operated since 2003 ten kilometres off the Irish port of Arklow, the more secure business is on shore, says a spokesman of the company."
piggie [Member] writes:
Dear Barbara-
Please don't place my name before Carl's.
His posts are much more scholarly
and authoritative than mine.
Your friends Maverick and Bobcat are attacking
me with all vulgarity and it is damaging
the image of all anti Cape-Wind activists.
As weel as exposing the
true frustration of defeat.
Since you have'nt resorted to such tactics with me
or the hundreds of others you've
discussed this issue with, it's
agreed that you'll be granted "corrective priviledge"
which I will have the honor of administering to your posts as soon as
I am finished with your
cerebrally-handicapped colleagues.
What are you DOING siding with people like them?
You're professional, and their debate/discussion "tactics" can be found amongst children!
Think about your reputation!
JUMP THE FENCE!!
Please don't place my name before Carl's.
His posts are much more scholarly
and authoritative than mine.
Your friends Maverick and Bobcat are attacking
me with all vulgarity and it is damaging
the image of all anti Cape-Wind activists.
As weel as exposing the
true frustration of defeat.
Since you have'nt resorted to such tactics with me
or the hundreds of others you've
discussed this issue with, it's
agreed that you'll be granted "corrective priviledge"
which I will have the honor of administering to your posts as soon as
I am finished with your
cerebrally-handicapped colleagues.
What are you DOING siding with people like them?
You're professional, and their debate/discussion "tactics" can be found amongst children!
Think about your reputation!
JUMP THE FENCE!!
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
Dear Piggie:
Just the facts, I'm siding with Nantucket Sound and applicable law, add a dose of common sense, and you have my attention.
http://bjdurk.newsvine.com/_news/2009/03/21/2577658-wind-power-cost-clarified-by-glenn-schleede-?mode=edit
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/mar/17/royaldutchshell-energy
'Shell dumps wind, solar and hydro power in favour of biofuels'
Tim Webb
guardian.co.uk
17 March 2009
"Shell will no longer invest in renewable technologies such as wind, solar and hydro power because they are not economic, the Anglo-Dutch oil company said today. It plans to invest more in biofuels which environmental groups blame for driving up food prices and deforestation..."
Just the facts, I'm siding with Nantucket Sound and applicable law, add a dose of common sense, and you have my attention.
http://bjdurk.newsvine.com/_news/2009/03/21/2577658-wind-power-cost-clarified-by-glenn-schleede-?mode=edit
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/mar/17/royaldutchshell-energy
'Shell dumps wind, solar and hydro power in favour of biofuels'
Tim Webb
guardian.co.uk
17 March 2009
"Shell will no longer invest in renewable technologies such as wind, solar and hydro power because they are not economic, the Anglo-Dutch oil company said today. It plans to invest more in biofuels which environmental groups blame for driving up food prices and deforestation..."
petapiperpickedapeck [Member] writes:
OMG!...
Imagine that...
Shell -OIL-... "Dumps WIND"!
"Who could imagine?"...
-Frank Zappa/'Freak-Out' - 'Help I'm a rock' (COAL?) -circa 1966
Shell...
"plans to invest more in biofuels which environmental groups blame for driving up food prices and deforestation..."
Sounds like it's right up the D'alliance...
Alley.
Imagine that...
Shell -OIL-... "Dumps WIND"!
"Who could imagine?"...
-Frank Zappa/'Freak-Out' - 'Help I'm a rock' (COAL?) -circa 1966
Shell...
"plans to invest more in biofuels which environmental groups blame for driving up food prices and deforestation..."
Sounds like it's right up the D'alliance...
Alley.
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
Barbra & all who believe the worst of the windfarm, it seems odd that allegedly scientific, pragmatic, well reasoned people who know to look both to opinions & research for the complete answer seem to miss that
Barbra gives about 80% conjecture & 20% misleading facts, both by link and personal statements.
Real life examples of modern wind technology working well & cost effectively, while dong the tiniest fraction of environmental damage as the power-source, by default, you advocate; seems to dispel your worst-case scenarios of terrible harm you repeatedly claim are inevitable should a windfarm be erected.
Within you own statements lies truth(which you must begrudgingly brush up against now & then)
Whether the windfarm is built does not depend on my thoughts, nor Barbra's ilk.
Babs:"I'm siding with applicable law"
The applicable law has spoken quite loudly that it believes that emission free power from the wind has negligible impacts. If what you really mean is law that makes an exception to the powerful that don't notice the 5%-10% increase of our current power
Barbra gives about 80% conjecture & 20% misleading facts, both by link and personal statements.
Real life examples of modern wind technology working well & cost effectively, while dong the tiniest fraction of environmental damage as the power-source, by default, you advocate; seems to dispel your worst-case scenarios of terrible harm you repeatedly claim are inevitable should a windfarm be erected.
Within you own statements lies truth(which you must begrudgingly brush up against now & then)
Whether the windfarm is built does not depend on my thoughts, nor Barbra's ilk.
Babs:"I'm siding with applicable law"
The applicable law has spoken quite loudly that it believes that emission free power from the wind has negligible impacts. If what you really mean is law that makes an exception to the powerful that don't notice the 5%-10% increase of our current power
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
I'm not Carl I'm wiggie!
uh, you go Carl .... you tell em!
uh, you go Carl .... you tell em!
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
...continued.
costs
please explain how you're on the side of law and yet haven't won a court case yet not to mention even a legal challenge? Even with uncle ted throwing his weight around you just can't get a judge or regulator to go your way.
That has GOT to be driving the blue blood establishment nuts!
This battle between the wealthy elite & the best interests of all the rate paying breathers on the East coast.
It has been legally shown to you how the power market CANNOT function as you claim it will, yet, undaunted you push on in Johnny Cochran defiance of the truth to see if the corporate lords you sycophantishly work for will allow your twisted facts & real life example challenged stories to get past public scrutiny.
But that's just it, you've done all you can to drag this out, but I believe the story is too big and important for the public to stop paying attention to their best interests and let clean power be stopped now!
Bankers will look long term at the $'s and they will decide if they will loan money for a wind farm. If you have your permits, that's all you need!
costs
please explain how you're on the side of law and yet haven't won a court case yet not to mention even a legal challenge? Even with uncle ted throwing his weight around you just can't get a judge or regulator to go your way.
That has GOT to be driving the blue blood establishment nuts!
This battle between the wealthy elite & the best interests of all the rate paying breathers on the East coast.
It has been legally shown to you how the power market CANNOT function as you claim it will, yet, undaunted you push on in Johnny Cochran defiance of the truth to see if the corporate lords you sycophantishly work for will allow your twisted facts & real life example challenged stories to get past public scrutiny.
But that's just it, you've done all you can to drag this out, but I believe the story is too big and important for the public to stop paying attention to their best interests and let clean power be stopped now!
Bankers will look long term at the $'s and they will decide if they will loan money for a wind farm. If you have your permits, that's all you need!
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
Carl, 'nuf said and seen here:
http://coalicionventanasverraco.org/node/255
Telegraph UK
'Windfarms: One of the great deceptions of our time'
"The total power generated by all the 2,300 turbines so far built in Britain, is less than that contributed by a single medium-size conventional power station."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/2910741/Windfarms-One-of-the-great-deceptions-of-our-time.html
Shell Wind:
“Shell will no longer invest in renewable energy technologies such as wind, solar and hydro power because they are not economic, the Anglo-Dutch oil company said today…”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/mar/17/royaldutchshell-energy
http://coalicionventanasverraco.org/node/255
Telegraph UK
'Windfarms: One of the great deceptions of our time'
"The total power generated by all the 2,300 turbines so far built in Britain, is less than that contributed by a single medium-size conventional power station."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/2910741/Windfarms-One-of-the-great-deceptions-of-our-time.html
Shell Wind:
“Shell will no longer invest in renewable energy technologies such as wind, solar and hydro power because they are not economic, the Anglo-Dutch oil company said today…”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/mar/17/royaldutchshell-energy
piggie [Member] writes:
"Overseas" examples (links) are exactly that-- overseas. It's a European issue
which you can't seem to let go of.
It seems like a "smokescreen tactic"
but the winds of time and truth are quickly blowing away the smoke.
Also, Barbara, the first line of your post 3/21/09 3:41 p.m. is'nt
exactly precise:
"add a dose of common sense"
If "common" means all Americans, and not
just a two-mile radius around Nantucket Sound you're dead wrong and I think
you know that.
I don't have to quote statistics or post
links to prove that most Americans are
SICK TO DEATH of depending on a treacherous energy source like petroleum and are desperate for an alternative.
There is NO WAY ON EARTH this fact
has slipped your mind, Barbara.
You are not a zombified "Manchurian candidate".
You must have thought of this at
least 10 times in the last few years,
yet you SO VERY conspicuously avoid
this crucial issue.
It's your achilles heel.
I suggest you address it.
which you can't seem to let go of.
It seems like a "smokescreen tactic"
but the winds of time and truth are quickly blowing away the smoke.
Also, Barbara, the first line of your post 3/21/09 3:41 p.m. is'nt
exactly precise:
"add a dose of common sense"
If "common" means all Americans, and not
just a two-mile radius around Nantucket Sound you're dead wrong and I think
you know that.
I don't have to quote statistics or post
links to prove that most Americans are
SICK TO DEATH of depending on a treacherous energy source like petroleum and are desperate for an alternative.
There is NO WAY ON EARTH this fact
has slipped your mind, Barbara.
You are not a zombified "Manchurian candidate".
You must have thought of this at
least 10 times in the last few years,
yet you SO VERY conspicuously avoid
this crucial issue.
It's your achilles heel.
I suggest you address it.
piggie [Member] writes:
To Barbara (cont'd)
If you don't address it, the public
is going to wonder why and possibly
arrive at a conclusion that may be
detrimental to your endeavour.
Or is it happening already?
Even the Alliance site is way behind on this
issue as their "alternatives" are YEARS
away.
The Cape Cod Commission "Land based energy review"
http://www.capecodcommission.org/windenergy/home.htm
was last UPDATED IN 2005!!!!
What's going on here???
And you've actually posted,
"Cape Wind will die of self-inflicted wounds."
If the Alliance had applied 3 or 4 strategies earlier in the scenario
as opposed to focusing on one,
they would'nt be fighting the war on three fronts like they are now.
I'm actually finishing this at about 10min till midnight.
Prophetic, is'nt it?
If you don't address it, the public
is going to wonder why and possibly
arrive at a conclusion that may be
detrimental to your endeavour.
Or is it happening already?
Even the Alliance site is way behind on this
issue as their "alternatives" are YEARS
away.
The Cape Cod Commission "Land based energy review"
http://www.capecodcommission.org/windenergy/home.htm
was last UPDATED IN 2005!!!!
What's going on here???
And you've actually posted,
"Cape Wind will die of self-inflicted wounds."
If the Alliance had applied 3 or 4 strategies earlier in the scenario
as opposed to focusing on one,
they would'nt be fighting the war on three fronts like they are now.
I'm actually finishing this at about 10min till midnight.
Prophetic, is'nt it?
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About This Blog
Chuck Kleekamp, P.E. Ret., is a director of Clean Power Now and frequently comments on renewable energy and the proposed wind farm on Nantucket Sound.
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Your comment..."Wind power will always lower the price of electricity".
From your experience as "Vice President, Clean Power Now" has wind power lowered the cost of electricity in Europe? Or better yet here in the good old USA?
Thanks