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The Ten Million Pound Gorilla At Town Meeting

The Ten Million Pound Gorilla At Town Meeting

  "If we're able to stop Obama on this, it will be his Waterloo. It will break him."
     - Senator Jim DeMint, R. So. Carolina

"All politics is local."  -Rep. Tip O'Neill, D. Mass.

We just held a special town meeting in Falmouth this past week to deal with budgetary shortfalls due to the economic collapse of 2008.   You remember that, don't you?   There are lots of folks, the corporate elite and their errand boys in the GOP, who don't want you to remember how the financial idiocy of Wall Street combined with  the idiotic deregulatory and tax cutting policies of the Bush administration over the prior eight years to create a major collapse of the U.S. economy second only to the crash in 1929.  

            As I sat there listening to the budgetary debate at town meeting, I wondered whether I was the only one who noticed the ten million pound gorilla sitting right there with us in the Lawrence School auditorium.  I'm referring to  the $10,337,104 line item for employee group health insurance entered as a "fringe benefit."

           This is the second largest line item in the budget, second only to the School Department and weighing in at almost double either the police or fire department allocation. It's more than double any other departmental allocation, and takes up over ten percent of the entire $100 million plus annual budget, yet  there was no discussion or questioning of this item as we debated long and hard over really important issues like whether to apply some of the $5,600 taken out of the travel allowance for the administrator's office toward shellfish propagation, to replace $3,000 that had been taken out there. 

          Putting $3,000 back into the line item for shellfish propagation, by the way, would have been a wise investment of public money.  It would directly create an available resources for taxpayers worth about twenty times the layout. Lots of people in town rely on harvesting shellfish in our public waters to supplement their declining incomes or just to put food on the table for their kids.  But, no, we voted to put the whole piddling $5,600 into the stabilization fund instead.  Now, that really put us back in the black, didn't it?

          Meanwhile, in Washington, cadres of insurance industry lobbyists and their Republican stooges in Congress are fighting tooth and claw to prevent meaningful reforms that will make health care both more affordable and more widely available to all Americans, including us taxpayers here in Falmouth and our municipal employees.  As Republican Senator Jim DeMint of South Carolina has admitted, it's really all about politics because the GOP is desperate to defeat President Obama on something, to make health reform his "Waterloo," public health and welfare be damned.

          Those of us who have been paying attention over the past three decades or so know that while the insurance industry is concerned only with profits, the right wing GOP base is driven by the ideological nonsense that "free market" capitalism, deregulation, small government and states rights is a constitutional and divine mandate.   They still cling to their imbecilic, knee-jerk ideology despite seeing the economy go into the tank last year, with trillions of dollars in debt, bankruptcies, mortgage foreclosures and ten percent unemployment, after eight years of GOP deregulation and tax cuts.

            As Tip O'Neill said, all politics is local, and our local budgetary problems are a good example given the presence of that obscenely obese gorilla, the one sitting in the auditorium with us Tuesday night, taking over ten million of our local tax dollars and handing them over to the private insurance corporations, enabling them to pursue excessive profits by making reckless investments while devising ever more ingenious, "perfectly legal" ways to deny the health care benefits we pay for.  Then, when they become "too big to fail" of course, we have to use federal tax dollars to pay for their recklessness in the form of bailouts.

           Here in Falmouth, that ten million dollars to provide group health coverage for town employees is paid in addition to the premium dollars we pay as individuals or through employer funded ERISA plans for ourselves.  It's the same in small towns all over America, where major portions of municipal budgets are devoted to providing the same kind of corporate welfare for the insurance industry CEOs and shareholders, where basic health care for municipal employees is considered only a "fringe" benefit.

          After we got through deciding we couldn't afford to put $3,000 back into shellfish propagation, we were presented with an opportunity to increase local revenues by adopting a local option increase in hotel and motel room taxes.  Then we were entertained by the bellowing of all the gored anti-tax oxen, business owners like former Selectman Kevin Murphy, telling scary stories about how a couple of extra tax dollars imposed on hotel or motel rooms was going to frighten tourists away en masse and deprive them of their anticipated profits.  Murphy and others also argued that the additional tax was "unfair" because it didn't apply to other temporary rentals like time-shares -as if they'd ever endorse any new tax on time share rentals.

             The rooms tax increase would have enhanced town revenues by "only" $150,000 or so for the remainder of this fiscal year, based on an anticipated $330,000 annual increase.  Earlier, Fire Chief Paul Brodeur gave us a breakdown of his budget saying he was able to hold the line for now, but by 2011 he would probably have to start cutting personnel in addition to the $200,000 or so in cuts he took this year, including over $169,000 for salary and wages. 

             Of course, we can't collect a few hundred thousand extra tax dollars to be paid by visitors instead of town property owners, because that'd cut into the profits of local businessmen like Murphy and it'd be "unfair."  So let's just take away the livelihoods of two or three firemen, a couple of policemen, a half-dozen teachers or several DPW workers instead.  Now, that's really fair, isn't it?

           About $120,000 in salaries and wages had to be cut from the Police budget, too, but nobody stopped to think that the extra $330,000 from the rooms tax increase just might go a long way to keep Falmouth a lot safer by maintaining existing levels of police and fire protection by offsetting those wage and salary cuts.  Alternatively, it would easily pay for several teachers whose jobs will be threatened if we don't begin to increase revenues in addition to looking for ways to limit expenditures.

          Naturally, when the Fire Department jobs disappear in a year or so, we'll be able to reduce some of that health care "fringe benefit" line item proportionally -make that gorilla slim down to about nine million pounds or so maybe.  You'll  have to learn to be patient then, however, because when you call for an ambulance you'll have to wait longer the way you have to wait, according to all the right-wing media blowhards, for medical treatment in all those "socialist" European countries with publicly financed health care.   But that's o.k. because, after all, what's a few extra minutes waiting for the ambulance when you have a stroke against a couple of dollars maybe taken off of Mr. Murphy's bottom line?

          Those European countries with "socialized" medicine recognize health care as a basic right rather than merely a "fringe benefit," and keep health care costs a lot lower than here in America, because they don't see how "fair" it is  to enhance business profitability by making basic health care unaffordable to millions of people.    In England they do this even though they don't even have a written constitution that specifies one of the basic purposes of government, and of the power of taxation, is to provide for the general welfare of the people, as expressly stated in Article I, Sect. 8, of our Constitution. 

          No, in England, France and other European democracies they have practical and effective political parties that are concerned for the well-being of all the people, with or without a constitutional mandate.  Here, however, we have the ideologically addled GOP marching in lockstep with the very rich to create a political paralysis serving only to maintain the economic ascendancy of the corporate elite,  and the constitutional mandate to promote the general welfare be damned. 

97 comments
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10/01/09 @ 10:20 am
Ana Paulina [Member] writes:
"Got Hope?"
10/01/09 @ 10:54 am
Monponsett [Member] writes:
Only white people should have to pay for health care, but that and the black president is literally all we owe the black man. In return, they let us play cornerback now and then.
10/01/09 @ 11:08 am
videopaul [Member] writes:
Prepare for third world conditions here in America. That's what happens to coutries after they've had their resources looted by the usual suspects, as has taken place here over the past 40 years. Stolen: retirement funds, equity, future monies, the Treasury...
10/01/09 @ 12:25 pm
Ana Paulina [Member] writes:
Was it Bill Hicks, who said, "Go back to sleep America, everything is under control."?
10/01/09 @ 12:58 pm
j. madden [Member] writes:
Richard: Won't those that make up the wealthy population in Falmouth leave large endowments and gifts to provide for the needs of the Town under the current urgent financial circumstances as an expression of there gratitude for not having to live in urban America?
10/01/09 @ 1:14 pm
Buzz [Member] writes:
There's a broad interpetation of the constitution if I ever heard one. Article 1 section 8 actually says... "common defence and general welfare of the "Untited States".

Not to mention the 10th amendment, "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

10/01/09 @ 1:23 pm
John [Member] writes:
Have you forgotten Barney Frank's and Chris Dodd's contribution to the collapse with their support of Fannie Mae's lending policies? What happened to the $1.3 million in pork barrel spending that Bill Delahunt got for Falmouth bike trails? How many teachers or police or fireman could that handle? As a lawyer, you must have a good understanding of tort reform which has been conveniently left out of the Obamacare bill and how wonderful it is going to be to have all the fraud and abuse eliminated from Medicare. Of course, we can't do that first to prove that it can be done. We have to trust the Obama admin. and Congress. Yeah, right!
10/01/09 @ 1:35 pm
j. madden [Member] writes:
This snippet is from cnn.com on financial difficulties in urban America: "Inside the Wayne County morgue in midtown Detroit, 67 bodies are piled up, unclaimed, in the freezing temperatures. Neither the families nor the county can afford to bury the corpses. So they stack up inside the freezer." Would this sort of item give a different perspective to the financial difficulties in Falmouth?
10/01/09 @ 1:39 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
uh, nooooo...you should have a choice!
Private or public health insurance...you pick.
But it seems we won't be getting a choice.
It will be back to the 4 or 5 conglomerate insurance co.'s. who glob onto the whole thing.
Only now, there will be no stopping them. Cause after all.....the American people wanted it! (huh??)

Guess we'll have to revolt against the American people then.
Someone said it once...the only ones who are pushing the for-profit healthcare must not pay for their own.

Or have enough money where it is not a concern.
Either way, is this most of America?
Me thinks not!
10/01/09 @ 2:00 pm
Buzz [Member] writes:
Hot of the press... "WASHINGTON — President Obama scored a big victory on Thursday as the Senate Finance Committee rejected a proposal to require pharmaceutical companies to give bigger discounts to Medicare on drugs dispensed to older Americans with low incomes."

How about those dems... always looking out for the liitle guy...NOT!

10/01/09 @ 8:18 pm
possee [Member] writes:
Richard

For the sake of all of us..let national healthcare pass with the public option.
Then, when all filters out, let's digress back to today and compare costs and coverage(minus the fines, penalties, and jail sentences imposed).

I am keeping the current average cost of private healthcare and all costs,co-pays, etc on file..ie (my insurance private pay).
Once enacted and in place..we will go back and compare numbers.

Deal?
I'm opting out for the Congress version, $503.00 per year..if they offer that, I'll support National Healthcare..

possee
10/01/09 @ 9:26 pm
Richard [Member] writes:
Oh, Buzz

So nice to hear from you. Now why don't you try to explain why the "general Welfare of the United States" does not include using tax money to protect the health of all Americans. While you're at it, please explain how using tax money for corporate welfare, starting a resource war overseas to secure oil leases for oil companies is somehow connected with defending the United States.
10/01/09 @ 10:05 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
How is that a victory for Obama?
What web-site did that come off of....world net daily?

And if they were doing it for our sakes, we would have single-payer.
Like the Congress, the military, the federal state and local employee's, the seniors and the very poor.

Public option is a watered-down compromise.

So maybe now, you all can stop calling the Democrats "Liberals".....they are anything but.
10/02/09 @ 11:32 am
Buzz [Member] writes:
Richard,

Darn, I was really hoping to hear your explanation of federal health care and the constitution. But since you asked me about using tax money for resource wars, I'll just refer back to the... social security and medicare argument. Maybe unconstitutional, but heck... we've had wars for oil before haven't we? Must make it okay.
10/02/09 @ 12:51 pm
videopaul [Member] writes:
Here's a town in FL that had it's cruisers repossesed after losing half of its staff already. Wonder who the bank was, a bailed out one. You start having third world conditions when your municipality can no longer maintain its infrastructure and support services. Wake up America! It may already be too late.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/09/28/eveningnews/main5347697.shtml
10/02/09 @ 1:35 pm
Buzz [Member] writes:
videopaul,

Thanks for bringing this story to our attention. First, the town is actually Cairo, Il. And as usual, all is not what it seems... its much more.

Came across this story about Cairo.... facinating.

http://unemploymentality.com/2009/07/recession-lessons-road-trip-part-iv-cairo-illinois/
10/02/09 @ 2:07 pm
Ned [Member] writes:
The whole plotline of HUCKLEBERRY FINN was to get Jim up to 'the good ol' Cairo' so he could get on with his life...
10/02/09 @ 4:24 pm
videopaul [Member] writes:
That's an interesting story on Cairo. It's the future for a lot of places in the US and it points out that a lot of damage has been done in all kinds of ways with all kinds of people responsible for it. I don't see it turning around anytime soon. Maybe the South Pan American Union will let us join their ranks once most of the US is a walled off ghost town. Karma?...

And good catch by Ned. Love that story and a nice punctuation to the real life results to the town.
10/02/09 @ 4:46 pm
videopaul [Member] writes:
Of course there's also this reason for the gorilla. The cost of the wars. Good details can be found here on current conditions in Afghanistan.

http://rethinkafghanistan.com/part3_full.php

10/02/09 @ 5:18 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
uh oh!! Move over Kucinich...we got a new hero!
Alan Grayson:

Calling theRepublican party a "lie factory" that hoped only to stall the healthcare debate.

"America is sick of you, Republican Party; you're a lie factory, that's all you do,"

Amen and pass the mustard!!! FINALLY, another Dem with balls!
10/02/09 @ 7:01 pm
possee [Member] writes:
bitter
Let your heart not be faint

The Democrats have the majority to pass any legislation, in the house and in the senate..
All your life long dreams will be fullfilled.
It's those nasty bluedog dems holding up passage.
Forget the GOP,they got nuthin..

Remember the schoolkids chant..'Barack Hussein Obama mm.mmm.mmm.!"
Just like Campbells soup.

mm.mm.good!

How's hope and change doin for you?

possee
10/02/09 @ 7:20 pm
possee [Member] writes:
bitter
Here ya go
Finance Committee Democrat Won’t Read Text of Health Bill, Says Anyone Who Claims They’ll Understand It ‘Is Trying to Pull the Wool Over Our Eyes’
Friday, October 02, 2009
By Nicholas Ballasy, Video Reporter

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/54930

One of your trusted news sources..not faux news

possee
10/02/09 @ 7:30 pm
possee [Member] writes:
"mm.mm.mm..
There's a party down in RIO
Brasil defeated the trio..
mm.mm.mm."
"The city of Chicago has the least amount of votes.." IOCC
Gotta be racism!

possee
10/02/09 @ 8:29 pm
possee [Member] writes:
mm.mm.mm.130 votes "present" as junior senator..
mm.mm.mm.The shine is off the mentor.
mmm. mm.mm.we lost the olympic bid
mm.mm.mm.we did the best we could
mm.mm.mm. michelle made a sacrifice
mm.mm.mm.wingnuts will pay a price
mm.mm.mm.hello mr president we love to hear you say
mm.mm.mm. what happened to you today?
mm.mm.mm.what can we do to help?
mm.mmm.mm.should we call and send a note to friends and contact Reverend Felps?
yES YES, WE CAN!

possee
10/03/09 @ 1:47 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Rich,

Recently, a friend of mine recommended the Frontline program "Sick Around the World" to me. I rented it and, boy, is it ever illuminating.

The host travels to 5 countries that rank above the U.S. in the WHO ranking of health care systems that also spend significantly less on health care than does the U.S.: England, Germany, Switzerland, Japan and Taiwan. At each stop we see different approaches to providing health care to ALL citizens that involve more government that we have in the U.S.

Anyone with an open mind who watches this movie will come away mad as heck at the politics and the irrational fear of socialized medicine that prevents us from doing the things that these countries have done at a fraction of what we spend on health care in this country.

This show is available via NetFlix. I strongly recommend it for anyone who thinks that our private system is anything but a disgrace.
10/03/09 @ 2:10 pm
r-five [Member] writes:
England, Germany, Switzerland, Japan and Taiwan need only be concerned about providing health care to their own citizens--not an additional 10-12 million illegal aliens.

Nor is it the case that England, Germany, Switzerland, Japan and Taiwan are in as desperate a need of tort reform as is the US.

While socialized medicine may (or may not) be a good thing for the US, let's do try to compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges.

Let's also try to be realistic and accept the fact that, given these factors and the current level of service, health care costs are only going to rise; regardless of what, if anything, Congress may or may not elect to do to reform health care.

There's no such thing as a free lunch, and, given the fact that costs are at least partially subsidized by the government, the system is effectively immunized from the laws of supply and demand.

Costs are therefore guaranteed to rise, unless services are cut.

The question therefore becomes how might this nation get back on its economic feet again so that the Piper might be paid?

R-Five
10/03/09 @ 3:13 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
r-five,

You can't be laying the vast majority of blame for our horrible health care system at the feet of tort reform and illegals can you? With all due respect, those are the red herrings of the Right. I can't tell you how many conservative opponents of health care reform that I've talked to that claim that those small potatoes will bring the level of reform that we need in this country. Together, they make up a very small fig leaf.

You are absolutely right: Costs are going to rise. All the more reason for fundamental changes to health care, as opposed to the window dressing that we're getting in the current bill.

Do you have Netflix? If so, try "Sick Around the World". Other governments have solved health care at a fraction of our cost.
10/03/09 @ 3:41 pm
r-five [Member] writes:
dkfalmouth:
You can't be laying the vast majority of blame for our horrible health care system at the feet of tort reform and illegals can you?
R-Five:
Nope-I'm only pointing out two reasons why differing national circumstances make comparisons meaningless.
dkfalmouth:
You are absolutely right:
R-Five
I generally am...
dkfalmouth:
Costs are going to rise. All the more reason for fundamental changes to health care, as opposed to the window dressing that we're getting in the current bill.
R-Five:
Reread my post: so long as the price system is subsidized--whether in whole or in part--health care costs are not going to come down in a meaningful way without cuts in services.
Whether we stay with the status quo, adopt a fully socialized system, or try something in-between, the essential problem is to re-invigorate our economy to pay for what we want.
We cant rely on snake-oil assurances that h.c.r is a magic bullet
dkfalmouth:
Other governments have solved health care at a fraction of our cost.
R-Five:
Other countries have a fraction of our problems
10/03/09 @ 3:55 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
r-Five,

Costs can come down with subsidization in single payer because the fees for service are strictly controlled. If you control what is paid, you control cost by definition.

Now, that will cause dislocation (doctor salaries, etc.) but what difficult social change ever comes without dislocation? Never happened, never will. The fact that moving to a Single Payer system would involve pain absolutely does not mean that it shouldn't be done. We're in for the ultimate pain in health insurance on our current track.

I'll tell you one way to reinvigorate our economy: Stop devoting 16% of GDP to health care which is twice as high as any of the 5 countries described in "Sick Around the World". Reducing expenditure on health care would be a huge boon to the economy.

"Other countries have a fraction of our problems". Should I interpret that as: "So it's not worth trying to solve them?".

Are you suggesting that we punt on health care?
10/03/09 @ 4:00 pm
jane.logan [Member] writes:
Sick Around the World:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/
10/03/09 @ 4:12 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Jane,

I guess you've seen SATW. At the end of the movie the host listed 3 things that were common to all of 5 systems that beat the pants off of our system. I can remember 2 of them:

1. Everyone is part of the system (covered and pays in if they can afford to).

2. Nobody makes a profit off of health care.

The 3rd may have been that nobody can go bankrupt via health care costs.

To me the most important is #2: It is just so wrong to hand our health over to for profit entities whose #1 priority is, by definition, maximizing profit. There's just a huge misalignment of goals there.
10/03/09 @ 4:18 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
"Forget the GOP,they got nuthin.."

They have the neo-con agenda firmly in place til 2020, thanks to your hero's Cheney/Bush....oh I know...you're non-partisan. You don't take sides....balloney! You're only fooling yourself. You come across as a right-wing idealogue.
But go on blaming Obama and the Dems and letting the Republicans slide.
You will be on the wrong side of history.

Single-Payer Now!!!

And hello.....now can you all stop calling the Democrats "liberal"? You just proved they are not!


10/03/09 @ 4:32 pm
jane.logan [Member] writes:
dkfalmouth - I just found it on line after I read your post (thanks for posting) I'm watching it now.
10/03/09 @ 4:47 pm
r-five [Member] writes:
dkfalmouth:
If you control what is paid, you control cost by definition...
R-Five
Agreed. I pointed out savings could be effected by cuts in services.
dfalmouth:
I'll tell you one way to reinvigorate our economy: Stop devoting 16% of GDP to health care...
R-Five
Agreed. Overall, the "service sector" of our economy is grossly disproportionate to the "production sector". How do we fix that?
dkfalmouth:
Reducing expenditure on health care would be a huge boon to the economy.
R-Five
Agreed--but no tax-payer subsidized program does that without demand/service reduction.
R-Five:
"Other countries have a fraction of our problems".
dkfalmouth:
Should I interpret that as: "So it's not worth trying to solve them?".
R-Five
Nope. Other countries' experiences don't apply to the issue.
dk-falmouth:
Are you suggesting that we punt on health care?
R-Five:
Nope--just that it's unrealistic to expect meaningful overall savings from this exercise. Cost reductions in one sector of the system will be absorbed by increases elsewhere.
That needs to be understood going forward.
10/03/09 @ 5:05 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
r-Five,

You say: "no tax-payer subsidized program does that without demand/service reduction"

Me: See the movie. 5 other countries have done this without service reduction (most provide more service).

You say: "Other countries' experiences don't apply to the issue."

Me: Another cop out r-Five. It's never reasonable to seek exact duplicates of situation and then, when those don't exist, to say: "Those situations are different". Believe me there's PLENTY to learn from what those other counties have done. Can we replicate any one of them exactly here? No. We do differ. That does not mean, however, that we can't incorporate parts of those systems? No again. We can learn from them.

You say: "-just that it's unrealistic to expect meaningful overall savings from this exercise"

I agree if by "this exercise" you mean the current bills. Politics has caused the exclusion of the fundamental reform we need. But can you imagine the opposition that would exist to the real reform we need?

Check out the movie!


10/03/09 @ 5:08 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
As I slowly say goodbye to all of you I enjoyed releasing a big 200# Plus "dusky shark" and a 200# "bluefin tuna" yesterday. Both species were here long before us and will enjoy the earth long after we are all gone.

All of your posturing and politics is crap. Richard would like to be a "The Ten Million Pound Gorilla". Instead, he and Ned stumble around on this blog hoping for clients and commissions.

"If we're able to stop Obama on this, it will be his Waterloo. It will break him."- Senator Jim DeMint, R. So. Carolina

Richard is a socialist who gets paid by the word. Really doesn't matter what he says. Just say a lot. Like a lawyer in the courtroom. Keep talking until the judge falls asleep.

WB...I enjoyed Peck more than your new commie friends.

10/03/09 @ 5:15 pm
jane.logan [Member] writes:
dkfamouth - That was a very good documentary. Those other countries get it that health care is a right, not a privilage. Everyone is included and no one goes bankrupt over medical bills.

Doctors might not get rich, but they make a decent salary.

In the countries which still have some type of insurance, the insurance company CEO's might not make 24 million a year, but they still make a decent income.

Why can't we take the best ideas from all these other countries and actually reform health care in this country?!
10/03/09 @ 5:41 pm
r-five [Member] writes:
dkfalmouth:
5 other countries have done this without service reduction
R-Five:
You're missing the point--to come close to replicating these countries' experience, *we* would *have* to implement service reductions--some of which are politically unacceptable.
dkfalmouth:
...Believe me there's PLENTY to learn from what those other counties have done. Can we replicate any one of them exactly here? No. We do differ. That does not mean, however, that we can't incorporate parts of those systems? No again. We can learn from them.
R-Five:
Didn't say we can't learn from them--my point is simply that we cant base our expectations on their experiences--nor is it appropriate to compare apples and oranges in projecting outcomes
To that end, we have to understand that health care reform is not a panacea in and of itself--it is not going to "pay for itself" as some people like to claim.
This doesn't mean we should't effect health care reform--or even socialized medicine--what this does mean is that our current economy has to radically change if we are not to face ruin regardless.
10/03/09 @ 6:02 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
r_five

I'm not missing your point when you say: "...to come close to replicating these countries' experience, *we* would *have* to implement service reductions--some of which are politically unacceptable."

I just disagree and I offer the systems of other countries as evidence. Those countries offer more for less and this proves that it can be done.

You've never heard me say that reforming health care is a panacea. I do say, however, that the 16% of the GDP that we devote to health care is a huge drag on the economy.

"pay for itself"? I'm not sure what that means. I believe that fundamental reform could bring huge cost reductions with better care again because other countries have done that. If we want to call reducing the cost of health care from 16% to say 10% "paying for itself" so be it. I just see it as better care at lower cost.

You know r_five, it's opposition like you're displaying here that prevents the country from undertaking fundamental reform. All you've got is "No, No, No". And that will lead us to ruin.

10/03/09 @ 7:17 pm
r-five [Member] writes:
dkfalmouth wrote:
You know r_five, it's opposition like you're displaying here that prevents the country from undertaking fundamental reform. All you've got is "No, No, No". And that will lead us to ruin.

R-Five:
What "opposition"?

What "No, No, No"?

Maintaining the status quo is at least as untenable as any of the alternatives that are out there.

I'm merely pointing out that it's invalid to use the experience of other countries to claim that cost reductions through improved structural efficiencies will offset increased costs due to increased demand.

Indeed, I would not be terribly surprised if gross expenditures actually increased.

Nor would this particularly disturb me if we were in a situation where health care's share of GDP were simultaneously shrinking due to serious economic expansion.

If you prefer to call that wet stuff falling on your head rain, be my guest--but wishful thinking is not going to help our longterm overall situation regardless of how the health care debate actually plays out.

10/03/09 @ 7:40 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
r-Five,

So are you saying that you refuse to check out what other countries have done? That is, that it's not possible that we can learn something from them and incorporate that learning here?

Why must these debates always be so all-or-nothing? In this case:

All: A health care system just like another country's.

Nothing: Nothing that another country has done could possibly be helpful here.

The truth is in the middle, not at either extreme. I've already acknowledged that, since we're unique it's unlikely that any other country's system would work here in totality. That is, I'm not at the "All" position. But, by remaining completely unwilling to consider what other countries have done you are at the "Nothing" position.

Truth is not normally found at the extremes.

Why are you resistant to seeing that movie and considering what other countries have done?
10/03/09 @ 8:20 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Jane,

You ask: "Why can't we take the best ideas from all these other countries and actually reform health care in this country?!".

The answer is political. Too many people in this country are paranoid about the "G" word: Government.

It's fine for Americans to be suspicious of big government. That's part of who we are as a people. But people need to understand that there are exceptions to every rule: Some things cannot be done better by the free market.

That's why I'd like health care opponents to see "Sick Around the World". It would help them to see that the sky will not fall if government plays a larger role in health insurance.

But for the foreseeable future, the paranoia of big government will block fundamental health care reform. Obama will get his shallow bill, we'll put health care reform on the shelf for another decade, and then wake up in 2020 with health care consuming 25% of our GDP.

And all because of the fear of government even in the face the world's most inefficient health care system.
10/03/09 @ 8:29 pm
jane.logan [Member] writes:
dkfalmouth - We're going to get mandatory health insurance with no provider cost or insurance company premium controls.

When reality sinks in, everyone against Health Care Reform will finally wake up and realize we need reform and it will be too late.

10/03/09 @ 9:42 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Jane,

If, for whatever reason, we have to stay with private health insurance the government will have to control its profits as is done in the utilities industry.

You're right. The following equation is what we're heading for at this point:

Private costs that grow 10%/yr today + No declines for prior conditions + No terminations due to illness + No lifetime maximums + Limits on deductibles = Unbelievable increases in the cost of private health insurance

And all because of anti-government hysteria in this country. Thank goodness we didn't have this political climate when Social Security and Medicare were launched. Half of our elderly would be living in poverty!
10/04/09 @ 9:04 am
chaco [Member] writes:
When Mr. Lattimer begins an article about Town Meeting by taking the simplistic view that all that is wrong with the world can be laid at the feet of the Republican party, while ignoring that the same economic policies complained of were full supported by the Clinton Administration, all of which policies were grounded in greed, it is clear that he is but another bloviating talking head, no different than Hannity, O'Reilly, Limbaugh etc. At least they are in it for the money. Mr. Lattimer is a true believer, and therefore an extremist and thus to be ignored. Such a sad thing, all that education gone to waste.Such a waste, to have to read such tripe.
10/04/09 @ 9:48 am
possee [Member] writes:
Being in the health care profession, the enormous over regulation(by govt) is one of the major burdens that affects the overall costs.
Other factors include the following.
1.State,local,&federal policies are subsidized by private payers such as us.
Ever wonder how civil service employees pay as little as $50 a week,for life, while we pay upwards to 1400 a month for the same plan?
2.Congress pays only $503 a year!
3.Congress created the regulations that the insurance providers must adhere to.
They allowed the greed to reach the pinnacle,and now want to run the show themselves?
4.Big pharma is in bed with the current gang of thieves and has been in prior adminstrations.allowing outrageous prices for meds.
5.Physicians charge astronomical fees, and batteries of unecessary tests to CYA, and yes,cover 150,000 a year liabilty costs.(tort reform?)
6.Under federal law,all persons ,legal and illegal,must be provided for at no cost should they lack coverage..well who pays for that..huh?
Factor the costs,greed,corruption,20 mil illegals,and the rest..do the math.

possee
10/04/09 @ 10:08 am
possee [Member] writes:
chaco

It's so easy to play the blame game, redirect the problem,,as with Mr Latimer.
As if the talk show gang(Beck,Hannity, Oreilly,Limbaugh) writes,enacts,and legislates current or past laws, or has a majority of votes in the Congress.. They are so powerful to defeat healthcare legislation with the dems as a majority in both houses.???.huh?.
The GOP is so powerful to stop legislation?..please!
The only thing the GOP has, is ride the coattails of the current tide of discontent..and they will face dissapointment as well, and well deserved!

Perhaps Richard should investigate the current debacle objectively and realize it's the failed policies of ALL adminstrations and their respective princes, and princesses,CEO'S, Bankers, etal that brought us this mess!
It's so much easier to create an enemy than to address the problem within.

Witness the current gang who demonizes anyone who challenges, questions, or opposes.
Just another chapter, continued from the prior morons..same game,same plan, same tactics..different faces.

possee
10/04/09 @ 10:17 am
r-five [Member] writes:
Posse, I haven't had time to keep up with the legislation...do you happen to know whether or not mandatory unionization provisions are still in current incarnations of the bill?

If so, how extensive are they?

Thanks,

R-Five
10/04/09 @ 10:26 am
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Chaco,

When you say "while ignoring that the same economic policies complained of were full supported by the Clinton Administration" I have to wonder what game you were watching back then. Clinton had the same economic policies as Bush and the GOP? Au contraire Chaco: Clinton's #1 economic policy was deficit reduction. By the latter half of his 2nd term he'd balanced the budget and even created a surplus! Bush eliminated that overnight with his unfunded tax cuts and his unfunded war in Iraq.

How can you say that Clinton and Bush had basically identical economic policies? That couldn't be further from the truth.
10/04/09 @ 10:47 am
jane.logan [Member] writes:
Bush with his room temperature IQ and war criminal Cheney as President of Vice oops I mean Vice President delivered a country in shambles to Obama.

Obama has been in office less than a year and all his critics complain he has not been able to fix the mess it took Bush and Cheny eight years to create.
10/04/09 @ 10:47 am
possee [Member] writes:
r-five

At this point, there's so much of a cluster$%^& with all the proposed legislation, that research can not delve further at this point.
Parliamentary procedure will probably ram this through on midnight soon, with out any clear knowledge of what's actually in the legislation.
Once passed, I' m sure we'll peruse throught the quagmire and find out.

I do hope we get to pay the same as the "royals" do...$ 503.00 per year.

Yeah right..

possee
10/04/09 @ 10:56 am
possee [Member] writes:
jane
As inept as Bush was, facts prove otherwise in the 'inherited mess" you and your pal Ob1 love to quote.
As usual....DNC demagogues.

All spending and legislation is passed by Congress..uhh,who controlled Congress for the majority of those 8 years, and, who voted in a majority for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?
GOP AND DNC!!
Who controlled banking legislation, finance commitee chairs?all those years?..hmmmm Barney the dinosaur, for one..Did the cowboy force him to rule on all banking legislation?
Let's face it, All of DC is to blame and still are!

Are you Richard's legal secretary?


possee
10/04/09 @ 11:05 am
jane.logan [Member] writes:
possee - I'm not a Democrat, I'm registered as Independent or the incredibly disrepectful "unenrolled" as we're called...

I'm not anyone's secretary, I'm an insurance broker and auditor.

I blame BOTH parties for failing to enact Health Care Reform.
10/04/09 @ 1:08 pm
hannah g [Member] writes:
This guy has never seen a tax increase he did not like. DK, Right here on Cape Cod you have 2000 members of SEIU/ACORN and 800 nurses union members demanding 10% anual pay increases from CCH. You always say that doctors may have to make less money. How about this group? You continually refer to ten percent increases in insurance premiums without addressing the increased costs in the unionized health care delivery sector.
10/04/09 @ 1:15 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
possee,

I'm not sure what point you're making about Congress under Bush but just to be clear, for the 1st 6 years - when the budget flipped from surplus to the largest deficit in history - the GOP controlled both houses. The budget and the national debt went to hell-in-a-hand basket under Bush and the GOP congress.

Barney Frank definitely contributed to the mortgage mess but don't forget: He was in the minority in the Banking committee for those same 6 years when most of the damage was done. Frank never controlled the Banking committee: The GOP had control.

There's absolutely no way of avoiding the fact that the financial health of the country cratered under GOP hegemony. Please tell me where I'm wrong.
10/04/09 @ 3:43 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Yes, and no regulations on the banksters went into effect until 2007, when Barney Frank took control!!
And here is the problem all tied up in a nice pretty bow:
"At least they are in it for the money."
Paydirt!!Everybody is in it for the money, and it should be about people's health.
Healthcare,
A roof over your head,
Food,
Clothing,
Heat....all in it for the money.
And do you know that there is now a late fee added to your phone bill?
I remember that audio tape that went out after Enron got busted...two youg guys laughing at how they had screwed over the old people of California, as if it was funny.
Madoff...ha ha ha, aren't I just the clever one?
All of them, laughing all the way to the bank.
Well, many of the politicians from both sides have said the American people should have the same insurance plan as they have...John Kerry and Obama are two.
It's only a few who are bought and sold....
And Baucus is a big one.
Shame them--it's the only way.
But then of course, you have to deal with the "you are a commie, socialist, america-hater" faction of the GOP.
(grow up)
10/04/09 @ 3:54 pm
r-five [Member] writes:
Posse wrote:
...All of DC is to blame...

R-Five:
That indeed is the plain fact of the matter.

Neither the DNC nor the RNC are the solution to our national problems--the two major parties, and their leaders, *are* the problem.

And have been for quite some time.

Those who expect the GOP, in its present form, to rescue them from whatever mistakes and excesses accumulate from this Administration over the next 4 to 8 years are particularly delusional.

The GOP is either going to have to put itself through "phoenix therapy", or it's going to take a third-party effort like none this country's ever seen before.

I'm betting on the latter. The present health care reform debate is not nearly as controversial as other promised elements of Obama's programme, and, if the Tea Parties and Town Halls are any indication, there are going to be some motivated 3rd-party members of congress after 2012.

And I'm not talking about the Greens...

R-Five
10/04/09 @ 4:33 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
R-Five,

You say: "The present health care reform debate is not nearly as controversial as other promised elements of Obama's programme,"

What are those elements?
10/04/09 @ 4:37 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Posse,

I agree with you about the GOP. Time was, you could disagree with the GOP but at least it stood for something: Small government and strong defense under Reagan. Fiscal discipline under Gingrich.

Today? I can't think of a thing that the GOP stands for except opposing Obama. They have nothing to offer but "N0".

I was a Republican for almost 25 years back when it stood for something. No more.
10/04/09 @ 6:05 pm
r-five [Member] writes:
R-Five:
"The present health care reform debate is not nearly as controversial as other promised elements of Obama's programme,"

dkfalmouth:
What are those elements?

R-Five:
I would expect that, among others, the following initiatives will be at least as controversial in the months/years to come:

[no particular order]

--Repeal of DOMA
--Passage of FOCA
--"Cap-and-Tax"
--Ratification of Kyoto follow-on
--Immigration reform/amnesty

There's a few others--the main point remains, though...

The GOP simply is not going to prove to be an adequate avenue of dissent in its present form.

R-Five
10/04/09 @ 7:37 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
The first thing that has to happen for anything to change is to prosecute the Bush/Cheney regime.
We have proof that they lied us into a "war" where millions have lost their lives.....
4,000+ Americans.
That is treason. If we do not prosecute them, we are doomed.
Everything else is chicken-scratch.

Because then the world and we will know that you cannot get away with that here.
Once we show that we are a nation of laws, not men, then we can deal better with all the liars crooks and thieves.

We must stop building castles on sand....build them on solid, righteous ground.
And first you need to pull out the weeds.

Because what right does anyone have to complain about Obama when Treason slips right past you as if it was nothing?
What good is a healthcare debate when the cancer still walks among us?
10/04/09 @ 8:04 pm
possee [Member] writes:
Jane,dk,r-five,
It's refreshing to hear from those who see beyond party dialogues,and know that both parties are equally culpable for the disaster we're in,and about to face in the near future.
Bush &co,under the guise of fiscal conservative repubs,spent money,and increased government growth,quicker than Clinton could ever dream of.
Obama & co continue the flagrant government expansion along with unprecedented spending.
The GOP and DNC are but parodies of their former selves and have become self perpetuating,pro multi globalists, and have excluded all their base to their greed and power...all of em!
To single out either party, for prior damages done, is absurd and pointless now.
Be we dems,repubs,or independents,we must challenge the idiocy before us and address it ..Healthcare must change, but to what end?
Big pharma,GE,and former lobbyists for the healthcare conglomerate now sit aside our current administration and are pushing a national plan..but who benefits?
They ruined medicare, medicaid,ss, by raiding the coffers intended for those who needed it most.

possee
10/04/09 @ 8:10 pm
possee [Member] writes:
contd...

Some still persue Bush& co as if there will be any proceedings thereof..ridiculous..the same powers still run the end game and there is no self serving purpose to indict the former scoundrels as the current scoundrels/players are equally culpable.

Please prove me otherwise..

possee
10/04/09 @ 10:14 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
R-Five,

I can't get too excited about your list and its overall effect. Let's take a look (my comments in CAPS):

--Repeal of DOMA. OBAMA SUPPORTED THIS DURING THE CAMPAIGN BUT HAS REVERSED HIMSELF AS PRESIDENT. I DON'T THINK THIS IS IN THE CARDS.

--Passage of FOCA. OBAMA HAS SAID THAT THIS IS NOT A HIGH LEGISLATIVE PRIORITY (CODE FOR "THIS AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN").

--"Cap-and-TRADE". WHILE I'VE GOTTA AWAIT FOR THE DEBATE TO DRAW A CONCLUSION HERE, I DON'T THINK THIS IS AS EVIL AS PEOPLE IMPLY. POLLUTERS WILL LOSE, CLEAN PLAYERS WILL WIN. EUROPE HASN'T COLLAPSED UNDER THEIR CAPE AND TRADE REGIMES.

--Ratification of Kyoto follow-on. LET'S WAIT TO SEE IF THERE IS A FOLLOW-ON AND WHAT CHINA AND THE 3RD WORLD COUNTRIES AGREE TO.

--Immigration reform/amnest. IT'S HARD TO TELL HOW COMMITTED OBAMA IS TO "COMPREHENSIVE REFORM". I TEND TO DOUBT THAT HE'LL TRY TO RAM IT DOWN OUR THROATS.

I don't see this list as being that scary.
10/05/09 @ 6:17 am
r-five [Member] writes:
To refresh your memory--what I actually said was:

"I would expect that, among others, the following initiatives will be at least as controversial in the months/years to come"

That you don't find them "scary" is beside the point...which is that there are plenty of reasons why opposition to this Administration will continue to grow, regardless of how the health-care debate turns out.

Since it has been demonstrated that economic forecasts of this Administration are worthless, the people need to prepare themselves to seek ways and means for paying for health care, regardless of what shape such reform might take (if any).

While the 10 million pound gorilla may (or may not) shrink a bit as a result of the present debate, we are still faced with the task of feeding him.

And neither party has come up with a clear and sensible vision as to how we might grow the economy in order to do that--without simply increasing taxes and/or printing more money, both of which will further damage an already weakened economy.

R-Five
10/05/09 @ 10:44 am
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
R-Five,

Yeah, I knew that I'd taken your list in a different direction. You were making a political point about controversy and I was talking more about the substance of the issues.

But even using your political logic, I think you're overstating your case:

DOMA: Obama has reversed himself here so there will be no political fall out.

FOCA: Not going to happen either.

Cap and Trade: I agree. This could be controversial (especially given the tactics that the Right has shown it is willing to use in the health care debate).

Kyoto: Pure speculation here. I have a scientist friend who ensures me that Obama will not rashly pursue Kyoto unless China and the 3rd world make STRONG commitments. Who knows though?

Immigration: I suspect that Obama will scale back his goals here to reflect political reality. Still, no matter what he tries, the Right will pillory him. Will be controversial.

So, I'll give you Cap and Trade and Immigration. Yeah, he'll take hits on those. But the public may tire of GOP scare tactics. This could end up working the other way.
10/05/09 @ 11:46 am
hannah g [Member] writes:
It is only a matter of time until the people learn that the SEIU/ACORN representation of healthcare providers in every nonprofit hospital in the country is driving unsustainable increases in healthcare delivery costs. Libs want to keep this debate focussed on insurance industry rate increases that reflect these rising costs until Obama can pay this union back for getting him elected. He has to do it quickly before people figure this out. If you think costs are increasing now, wait till these people are government employees that only have to elect a liberal politician to increase pay and benefits. This state,California, and Michigan are the end result,and perfect examples of this way of thinking.
10/05/09 @ 12:00 pm
Tom Martin [Member] writes:
So the nationalization of health insurance is going to save Falmouth 10 million a year in health insurance costs huh? How? Are the teachers going to give up their current health plans to go on the “public option”? who is paying for the public option? If we add 30 million people to the health insurance roles how will that decrease health insurance costs? Are the selectmen and other part time town “employees” on the health insurance plan? Medicare/Medicaid is broke. Medicare doesn’t cover as much as private insurance. Did Medicare pay for Ted K.’s trip down south for his surgery. Would they pay for you? When my car isn’t running right I don’t scrap it I fix it one piece at a time.
10/05/09 @ 12:15 pm
Ned [Member] writes:
possee keeps proposing coalitions of Special Interest Groups with opposing agendas... to effect change. Any historical examples of this ever happening? Not saying it couldn't, but it does seem counterintuitive.
10/05/09 @ 12:37 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
Chaco...your thought concerning Richard..."it is clear that he is but another bloviating talking head".

He and Rush would make a great bi-partisan ticket. They can both talk a dog off a meatwagon.
10/05/09 @ 1:40 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Hold on Hannah,

Can you explain this sentence?

"If you think costs are increasing now, wait till these people are government employees that only have to elect a liberal politician to increase pay and benefits."

This is a new issue for me. Is there something in the health care bills that will make SEIU members "government employees"? If so, I sure have missed it. I've seen absolutely nothing like this in any of the bills.

What are you referring to? Can you provide a source?
10/05/09 @ 1:48 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Tom Martin,

Once and if the Public Option is opened to employers the size of a school, the Public Option could reduce town cost in 2 ways:

1. Teachers could choose it to reduce their monthly cost. This might be particularly attractive for young/healthy teachers.

2. Competition from the Public Option will reduce the rates charged by the other private options.

I have no idea where you're going with your Medicare stuff.


10/05/09 @ 9:17 pm
Tom Martin [Member] writes:
most teachers probably wont get the option to chose it because the unions will want tokeep the good plans.
2 has health insurance gotten any cheaper in MA?
3 Medicare is broke, and doesnt actually cover as much in many states as private insurance is mandated to. how will another goverment program be any better.
10/05/09 @ 9:30 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Tom Martin,

Re: teachers' health insurance, the important word - and you use it - is "choose". The unions will have nothing to lose by allowing the Public Option (PO) as a choice. If a teacher doesn't want the PO, he or she can spurn it. On the other hand, as I said before, the PO might be ideal for young, healthy teachers. Offering a no frills, low cost option will be of benefit to teachers. AND teachers will also benefit if the other plans reduce their prices to compete with PO (to prevent young teachers from choosing the PO). That's exactly the kind of competition Obama is describing. Unions will eat it up!

Medicare is broke mainly because Bush sat on his hands for 8 years. Clinton left it in pretty good shape. But as the Baby Boom approached (fewer workers, more retirees) Bush did nothing. Sure it has future financial problems. Any insurance system would be strained by the Baby Boom. Private insurers have similar issues and they just raise their rates (at over 10% per year!).
10/06/09 @ 4:41 pm
videopaul [Member] writes:
Christ - just glancing through this thread is enough to give someone a headache. It's all about the money, no doubt, but as long as the good ol' USA has the aspirations of being empire and socking the TRILLIONS of $$$$$ into the military defense budget - wait... make that war budget, there will be no progress as it takes the lumbering divisive status quo to makle it so and I believe that the debate you read in this thread accomplishes that for the powers that be.
10/06/09 @ 5:41 pm
Richard [Member] writes:
Oh,my Gawd,as they say Down East. I left town for a few days to visit my son at his college homecoming, and look what happened to this site. I'm not even gonna try to respond to any specific post, but I do want to thank DK for stepping up as he did.

Anyway, it should be enlightening for anyone interested in the issue to review two prior posts on this site dealing with the health insurance "debate." The first, on 8/12, entitled "There's a Sucker Born Every Minute," dealt with the issue in political and ideological terms and generated a 41 post thread because everyone has an opinion.

The second one, however, on 8/15, entitled "Just Follow The Money" was strictly factual. It compares what happens to your tax dollar for public health insurance vs. your premium dollar for private coverage -no BS, just undeniable fact that a lot more of the tax dollar actually gets to the doctor while the premium dollar is stepped on repeatedly for advertising, CEO perks, investment, profits, lawyers, lobbyist, etc., before the doctor sees even a penny. How many responses? Zero. That says a lot.
10/06/09 @ 6:41 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
We'll have a public option, and hopefully one day single-payer for all.
And Richard...Kucinich said that exact thing on the Hose floor: One in every three dollars given to the insurance industry goes to profit-making.
He says we already pay enough to cover everybody!

And videopaul is right too...in fact, a writer says this: "the neocons have aligned themselves with the Pentagon in its power struggle with the Obama administration."
The Pentagon aka the Military Industrial Complex has taken over our country. Much like the Health Industry has taken over healthcare.

We have to stop buying into it. And stop being brainwashed by all this ridiculous propaganda coming form the right-wing.

And as far as "both parties are equally culpable".
Not this time.
The fault of the situation we are in lies at the feet of the Bush/Cheney regime 200-2008.
OR, if you will, the GOP that held iron-clad control.

They were voted out. It's time they respected the American people and backed off.

10/06/09 @ 7:43 pm
possee [Member] writes:
Then why has Obama aligned himself with GE, PFIZER, etc?..they stand to make billions with healthcare..it's not about covering us.it's about corruption at our expense lining the pockets of healthcare giants, and their cronies in DC..BOTH PARTIES..
determining your govt sponsored healthcare..
Big pharma is as big as the military complex in dollars, and power...

And yes, the miltary complex still runs this country as warned by Eisenhower, a repub..
Ob can't change that scenario..the dems run the show and continue the nefarious game once controlled by the gop..
Keep buying into the left wing..they'll screw you just as well, and you're buying it..


possee
10/06/09 @ 8:18 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
"they'll screw you just as well,"

And you won't be able to say anything about it, because your attitude is "they all do it so let them!"

NO.
We all KNOW what crimes were committed.
Act now or forever hold our peace.

If we do nothing about Bush, we deserve what we get.
And all of you can stop complainign about Obama...cause you have rubber-stamped the Imperial Presidency model by your acquiesence to the right.

This goes far beyond healthcare...
Healthcare is just shining a light on the system we have.
For once, there is undeniable PROOF of the criminal activity behind the scenes....we gotta grab it and run.
Or how else will it ever stop?




10/06/09 @ 8:23 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
"Israel's vice Prime Minister Moshe Yaalon recently cancelled a planned trip to London over fears that he could be put on trial for alleged war crimes, his spokesman said on Monday."

Much like Rumsfeld and Rice were chased out of France and Spain for fear of being prosecuted for the same thing.
Why are we leaving it up to foreign nations to take care of our dirty business?

sorry for being off-topic.
10/06/09 @ 9:45 pm
Buzz [Member] writes:
bitter,

(WASHINGTON — Attorney General Eric Holder (Obama's Attorney Geneeral) said Tuesday the alleged terror plot disrupted in New York was "one of the most serious in the United States since Sept. 11, 2001"

Help me out here, is Bush & Cheney still behind this terror plot? I know you've said that 9/11 was an inside job.. how the hell do you think they caught these guys? The plot is still unfolding and more arrests are pending.

You should be happy that this country has been kept safe for the past 8 years.
10/06/09 @ 9:49 pm
Buzz [Member] writes:
Richard,

Hope you enjoyed the homecoming.... welcome back. We were all sure that you went to the new Michael Moore film preview:)
10/06/09 @ 11:37 pm
Ned [Member] writes:
"You should be happy that this country has been kept safe for the past 8 years.
" Ah. Very cleverly worded. 8 years and one month takes us back to...
10/07/09 @ 7:04 am
possee [Member] writes:
Buzz
Mr Moore is the true representative of the left, and deserves adulation for his groundbreaking doumentaries vilifying capitalism while reaping the bounties of that he so despises..
Much like the rest of Hollywood.

possee
10/07/09 @ 7:45 am
possee [Member] writes:
Buzz

Bush/Cheney are secretly controlling poor Obama, and gang, and we must expose this shadowy enterprise.
Only then bitters light will shine.

You mean to tell me the Crawford Texas gang has more power than the Chicago gangstas?
Bush must have a long lassoo.

Probably the nabbed terorists worked for Cheny/Halliburton..ehh?

possee
10/07/09 @ 8:25 am
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Oh, so now you support Holder buzz? Interesting....remember that when he goes after the law-breakers.
I'm sure then he will be just a political operative, huh?
And the last eight years have made us most hated in the world, and therefore not safer by any means.
The reason we haven't had another 9/11 is because people in our gvt. haven't allowed it to happen, like they did the last one. It's really very simple to understand.
They got their long-sought-after control grid aka The USA Patriot Act.
Only when they NEED another 9/11 will one occur.
And possee...I geuss I don't speak English very well
since you don't seem to comprehend what I'm saying....
It doesn't matter WHAT Obama does....you have given him the green light to do whatever he wants.
Since you refuse to go after the former regime, you can't very well apply a double standard and hold Obama accountable, can you?
You all wanted Bush to have King-Like powers....well, it applies to Obama as well!
Oh, and Moore is a true patriot...
Showing Americans how truly they are being used and abused by this system.
Disinfecting the Rot.
10/07/09 @ 8:36 am
Buzz [Member] writes:
8 years and 1 month takes us back to an attack that was being developed durning the Clinton years... good point Ned.


bitter, I support ANYONE who's willing to recognize and fight our enemies home or abroad. I believe that the attacks of 9/11 prove that we've been hated long before the past 8 years.

Again, to my question.... if 9/11 was an inside job by the Bush/Cheney squad, who's leading the new terrorist attacks on America?
10/07/09 @ 8:53 am
Peter Walker [Member] writes:
bitter spelled it out possee,”… Cheney has plenty of "stay behinds" in the Obama administration to make sure his agenda is carried out…”
bitter isn’t today (10/07/09) the beginning of the end for the Federal Reserve?
TIN FOIL WARRIORS UNITE!
10/07/09 @ 9:28 am
Ned [Member] writes:
Who's leading the new terrorist attacks on America? Hmmm~ Rupert Murdoch! His wife's Chinese and his really profitable enterprises are the ones perking along in Mainland China. He seeks to subsume the USA within the Oceanian Empire... he don't need no steenking Constitution, amigo. A few malcontent towelheads are a convenient distraction.
10/07/09 @ 9:29 am
crusader [Member] writes:
possee,

"Have you seen the Globe Today", Financial overseers opposing overhaul

"Critics say the existence of four different regulators has allowed banks to go “shopping’’ for the regulator who will treat them the most leniently, a problem the critics say could be reduced with a single consumer protection agency that covers the whole financial system. Furthermore, Eugene Ludwig, who was comptroller of the currency during the Clinton administration...since the agencies are funded by the assessments charged on companies they regulate, the agencies have an inherent incentive to keep banks from moving to other regulators".

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2009/10/07/financial_overseers_opposing_overhaul/?comments=all

comment-"Financial schemes designed to turn quick profit were and are very complicated and unclear. The only ones who could understand how most of them work are those who have a Masters from Harvard Business School. The Republican attitude is typical of "laizze-fair" politics which only benefits the rich and soon to be richer."

Throw the bums in jail
10/07/09 @ 9:40 am
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Yes.
"Dr. Michael Van de Meer is the person predicting a financial collapse of the United States starting on September 30th.
“Although September 30th will be the tipping point at which the tree’s fate is determined, the branches will not hit the ground until October 7 and 27th and going on into November,” he says.
In a separate confirmation the Chinese Government is no longer entertaining and investing in derivatives, and have declared a Nova-to, meaning they will not be paying the trillions “due” on these these illegal instruments. In fact the Chinese are using stronger language saying these criminally foisted instruments are a declaration of a financial war.
On September 30th all these fiat numbers created out of nothing will no longer be accepted. Both China and Japan have not said they will only accept gold from America but they have none.
*****
Believe it or not..only time will tell.
Can't hurt to keep this in the back of your mind as you see what's going on in the world.
And since Ron Paul is going after the Fed,and all the Repubs and 219(?) Dems agree to the audit...?
10/07/09 @ 9:40 am
crusader [Member] writes:

"The residential loan foreclosure crisis was fueled in large measure by the "consumer advocates" like Barney Frank pushing banks and their regulators to make loans in poor areas that should never have been made."

Anybody who believes THAT line of horse hockey NEEDS to go read this:

http://www.hud.gov/news/speeches/presremarks.cfm

Bush and the Republicans had a vested interest in covering up the damage that inequitable free trade, deregulation, and trickle-down economics were doing to the economy. They chose to fuel a housing bubble with easy credit.

READ Bush's speech! IT IS ALL THERE IN HIS OWN WORDS"!

I find the comments more telling than the articles.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2009/10/07/financial_overseers_opposing_overhaul/?comments=all

10/07/09 @ 10:01 am
crusader [Member] writes:
LOL..some speech. Maybe Katrina was the blueprint for what we see today. How is the New Orleans doing, btw? Have they moved the thousands of displaced back in or moved them out for new developers to transform it into resorts for the rich?

"The goal is, everybody who wants to own a home has got a shot at doing so. The problem is we have what we call a homeownership gap in America. Three-quarters of Anglos own their homes, and yet less than 50 percent of African Americans and Hispanics own homes. That ownership gap signals that something might be WRONG in the land of plenty.(ya-think)...We are here in Washington, D.C. to address problems. So I've set this goal for the country. We want 5.5 million more homeowners by 2010 -- million more minority homeowners by 2010. (Applause.) Five-and-a-half million families by 2010 will own a home. There's some people out there that can fall prey to unscrupulous lenders, and we have an obligation to educate and to use our resource base to help people understand how to purchase a home"....RIGHT! Reading this speech is nauseating. What a bunch of BULL.
10/07/09 @ 10:13 am
crusader [Member] writes:
Now that Bushies pals have massed billions in the Cayman's and Swiss banks from the recent housing bubble scam (don't forget the dot.com and ENRON bubbles which preceded)what does any of this matter now? The damage is done.

I love it--they convince an entire nation that they want everyone to own their own home, grant the loans, then toss millions into poverty and take away their jobs. Way to go sh!theads. Whoever said it takes intelligence to be a politician? SCUMBAGS. It's actually more upsetting to read the paper. Can someone pinch me from this ongoing nightmare? I'd rather be soaking up the sun in Key West right about now forgetting we are still swimming around in this fiscal sewer hole they expect us to clean up. Well, maybe you on the Cape can pray for those stolen billions to come your way by yuppie scum who helped get us in this mess. I vote we pack up all the Carnival cruise ships and keep them afloat till they reach an iceberg.
10/07/09 @ 10:35 am
crusader [Member] writes:
Censoring..more censoring...looks like Murdoch is gaining speed, Neddy. (globe comments from above)

"The system as it stands now is not working, and has not worked for consumers (average Americans). Some individuals who ran lending businesses were able to make huge profits at the expense of consumers, while running their own businesses into the ground only to be bailed out by taxpayers. There absolutely needs to be a single regulatory agency that represents the consumers, who cannot be expected to see through all of the deliberate financial complications that business creates simply to fool them.
One more comment - if the Globe does get taken over, ie by Platinum, I'm afraid that articles that lay out both sides of the issue like this one does will never get written. See the article about Platinum in today's Boston.com. That would be a shame, and would leave us wide open to being taken advantage of yet again".
10/07/09 @ 10:59 am
crusader [Member] writes:
Hey possee,

possee..looks like Boston politics is really shaking up. Menino may be investigated by the feds? I thought JC was in a Florida prison. Looks like things are going to start heating up in the mayoral race and senate, too. Martha in the hot seat. Should be interesting.

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/editorials/articles/2009/10/07/coakley_should_take_over_probe_of_city_hall_e_mails/
10/07/09 @ 11:55 am
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Robert Fisk – Independent October 6, 2009

"In the most profound financial change in recent Middle East history, Gulf Arabs are planning – along with China, Russia, Japan and France – to end dollar dealings for oil, moving instead to a basket of currencies including the Japanese yen and Chinese yuan, the euro, gold and a new, unified currency planned for nations in the Gulf Co-operation Council, including Saudi Arabia, Abu Dhabi, Kuwait and Qatar."
******
Dominoes are falling.
But look at this:

"Iran announced late last month that its foreign currency reserves would henceforth be held in euros rather than dollars. Bankers remember, of course, what happened to the last Middle East oil producer to sell its oil in euros rather than dollars. A few months after Saddam Hussein trumpeted his decision, the Americans and British invaded Iraq."
****
Oh my god...did you know that?
I didn't.
Adds a whole other layer to the reasons for going to "war" with Iraq, and now going after Iran!

boy oh boy, what a world!
ps: Karl Rove deleted 3 million gvt. e-mails!!!


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Richard Latimer is a practicing attorney in Falmouth, MA, doing business as Richard K. Latimer, Attorney at Law, 222 Main Street, Falmouth, MA.  His practice centers on litigation with a focus on personal injury and disability law, in addition to contracts, construction disputes and other insurance litigation as well. Telephone (508) 548-7006 and e-mail rklaw@cape.com

He is a 1972 graduate of U.Mass, Amherst and a 1975 graduate of the Columbia University School of Law and a member of the Massachusetts Bar since 1975.

He and his wife of 39 years, Adrienne, and we have a 21 year old son Brian, a 2006 graduate of Falmouth High School, who is presently enrolled at Cape Cod Community and who plans to transfer to U.Mass next fall.  Richard has been active in local Falmouth politics, presently as a Town Meeting member and member of the Planning Board.

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