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Tort Reform and Other Shibboleths of the Wingnut GOP

                                            Tort Reform and Other Shibboleths of the Wingnut GOP

                                                 

                                                 The contingent fee is the poor man's key to the courthouse.

 

             But there is one way in this country in which all men are created equal-there is one human institution that makes a pauper the equal of a Rockefeller, the stupid man the equal of an Einstein, and the ignorant man the equal of any college president. That institution, gentlemen, is a court. . . . Our courts have their faults, as does any human institution, but in this country our courts are the great levelers, and in our courts all men are created equal."

              - Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird    

 

             It is unwise to pay too much but it is worse to pay too little. When you pay too much you lose a little money. When you pay too little you sometimes lose everything because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common sense law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot. It can't be done.

             - John Ruskin

 

            In any health care lawsuit, the amount of noneconomic damages, if available may be as much as $250,000, regardless of the number of parties against whom the action is brought or the number of separate claims or actions brought with respect to the same injury.

            -Amendment in the Nature of a Substitute to H.R. 3962, Div. C, Sect. 302(b)

 

               The GOP's all-out obstructionist war on President Obama's efforts to restore prosperity and equality to American society is focused right now on the issue of health care.  It's just one of many fronts, but as GOP Senator Jim DeMint of South Carolina has stated they want health care to be Obama's "Waterloo," public health and welfare be damned.

              Predictably, the Republican scaremongering has focused on the big government bogeyman - not when that big bad federal government steps up to bail out private corporations after they run the economy into the ground, mind you, nor when it starts an overseas war of corporate opportunity to steal another country's natural resources as in Iraq.  No, the big federal government is bad only when it proposes to provide a basic service like health care both fairly and economically for all Americans.

             That's when we hear all the tried and true right wing shibboleths, calling Obama's public option health care plan "socialism."  Never mind that the Constitution expressly states at Article II, Section 8, that the federal government can raise taxes for the specific purpose of promoting the general welfare -where nothing could be more in keeping with that objective than providing adequate health coverage for everyone. 

            Never mind, too, that neither the word "socialism" nor "capitalism" is found anywhere in the Constitution, as they are merely economic models, either or both of which can comfortably work within the constitutional framework of our democratic government.  No, that just can't work for the Republican right wing, the success of publicly funded health care in other democracies aside, because it contradicts their small-government, anti-tax ideology.  Ronald Reagan's Freudian slip that "facts are stupid things" sums it up nicely for them, because the facts always get in the way of  their right wing ideological purity.

              So the GOP true believers still cling to that laissez faire nonsense based on Adam Smith's magic "invisible hand" that guides the unregulated market to attain the best of all possible worlds.  You know, that's where greedy profit oriented entrepreneurs working solely in their own self-interest will somehow, presto, achieve the best possible outcome for everyone.  But Adam Smith wasn't around in 1929 or 2008, was he?  After the crash of 2008, even the staunchest latter-day intellectual exponent of that nonsense, Alan Greenspan, had to admit after the debacle of the Bush administration became manifest, that he and the John Galts of the world were wrong all along. 

           Meanwhile, the GOP has finally released a draft of its own Insurance Industry Relief Bill of 2009 this week -otherwise known in GOP double speak as a "health care reform" bill, and its preface contains all the usual right wing shibboleths straight from the Ouingnut Ouija board, including taxes, privatization vs. big government and, of course, "tort reform."  That one's a beaut, too, blaming all excessive health care costs on doctors scared of being sued as opposed to, say, insurance industry greed. No, Dorothy, don't pay any mind to that man behind the curtain because we're still in Oz as far as the GOP is concerned.

            So let's think this through. When you have that pain in your chest or lump on your breast you want to go to the doctor who tests you only because he's scared of being sued as opposed to the doctor who takes advantage of the latest diagnostic technologies in order to get it right and provide you with appropriate treatment, consistent with the oath he took.  You want the doctor who, because of lower insurance premiums, will say to hell with all that testing junk and just make his diagnoses by throwing darts and seeing where they hit so he can make his tee time. Isn't that right, Binky?  Well the wingnut GOP solons in Washington apparently think you're that stupid -in fact, they're depending on it.

          So-called "tort reform" is one of the most enduring of the right-wing GOP shibboleths.  President Obama wants real health care reform, to make affordable health care available to everyone while getting doctors paid fair compensation by reducing or, even better, eliminating insurance industry profiteering from the equation. Obama's approach recognizes that the real difficulty with providing affordable health care today is based on insurance industry excesses having little or nothing to do with actually getting your doctor paid.  Just consider how much of your premium dollar, or your employer's, actually gets to pay the doctor.

           There are the outsized insurance executive salaries, bonuses and perks, the risky speculative investments, the competition based on expensive media advertising rather than actual competitive pricing, the self-aggrandizing real estate development with phallic office towers jutting up over every major city skyline, the high priced corporate lawyers fighting with unlimited budgets against local plaintiff's lawyers who dare question a claim denial in court and the cadre of lawyers and actuaries hired to devise "perfectly legal" ways to deny the coverage we pay for.  That's all in addition to the millions being paid to the swarms of K-Street lobbyists talking to your congressman as you read this.

          Only then, after being repeatedly stepped on by such non-essential costs does the first penny of your premium dollar go to paying your doctor.  The GOP is blind to those factors as the real source of the problem because they don't fall into lockstep with right wing "free market" ideology.  For them the problem must be the tort lawyers, and here we see a right wing double-dipper as well.

           The GOP's right wing corporatists get to stick their chips into our dip twice with this one, so forget about reforming the health care system in ways that will actually benefit both doctors and patients by reducing insurance industry profits.  Here, the GOP proposal for "tort reform" seeks mainly to protect health insurer profit margins by presumably getting doctors to order fewer costly tests like MRI, CAT Scans et cetera, characterized as "defensive medicine," while at the same time certainly protecting liability insurer profitability immensely.

           They seek to protect liability insurer profitability by putting arbitrary and wholly inadequate limits on tort recoveries by patients injured or killed by a doctor's negligence, as with the Amendment in the Nature of a Substitute to H.R. 3962, Sect. 302(b), offered this week by Mr. Boehner of Ohio on behalf of the Republican Party:

 In any health care lawsuit, the amount of noneconomic damages, if available may be as much as $250,000, regardless of the number of parties against whom the action is brought or the number of separate claims or actions brought with respect to the same injury.

This would limit the total amount any personal injury claimant can receive from any and all sources for "non-economic loss."

           "Non economic" loss means anything other than direct medical costs and lost earning capacity.  This term includes intractable pain, loss of a limb, severe scarring  and other disfigurement, loss of sight or hearing, loss of sexual function, severe depression, anxiety et cetera, all of which would be limited to $250,000 -or about five percent of the cost of an insurance CEO's private jet -assuming he's a stiff who buys a low end bird for around six million.

            While they're at it, the GOP corporatists have also slipped in liability limits for drug manufacturers and corporations making medical devices that malfunction, or are inadequately designed, causing death or serious injury:  

The term "health care lawsuit means any health care liability claim concerning the provision of health care goods or services or any medical product. . . .

See Amendment in the Nature of a Substitute to H.R. 3962, Div. C, Sect. 307, Definitions (7).  Here, by the reference to "health care goods . . . or any medical product," we see "tort reform" working not only for doctors who screw up under principles of medical malpractice but also for manufacturing corporations of medical devices under principles of product liability law.

            This way, the GOP seeks to protect both health insurer profiteering and liability insurer profiteering in one neat package, without really doing anything to expand coverage to all Americans or control the costs of health care.  Never mind the fact that in states that have enacted so-called tort reform, Texas for example with a liability cap on damages for pain and suffering since 2003, it has had zero effect on curbing the escalation of health care costs.   Consider the following facts:

(1)        The limit of $250,000 on pain and suffering for med mal cases in Texas has in fact reduced malpractice insurance premiums by about 30 per cent, but the consumer's cost for medical services and for health insurers has risen, clearly indicating that the real benefit goes to the insurers -people like the "too big to fail" AIG, rather than either the doctors or the patients:

 http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/columnists/jlanders/stories/DN-Landers_21bus.State.Edition1.9be351.html

Thus, the GOP's latest proposal is just another cynical attempt to continue the parasitic scam that private health insurers have been working to bleed consumers, increasing their bottom line, while denying adequate coverage to more than 20 percent of Americans, mostly working people who aren't covered under ERISA and who don't earn enough to purchase coverage on their own.

(2)        The proposed GOP legislation also would cap the amount of punitive damages available in any case at $250,000 in states which allow for punitive damages at common law. Massachusetts, however, has never allowed punitive damages except in very limited specific contexts governed by statute, still our health care costs have risen by eight percent since the enactment of Romney's mandatory health insurance plan in 2006;

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2009/05/28/more_mass_residents_report_trouble_paying_medical_bills/?page=2

Meanwhile, the cost of basic coverage for middle income earners in Massachusetts making $30,000 or so per year can exceed $9,000, almost one third of total income.

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2009/03/02/mass_healthcare_reform_is_failing_us/

(3)        The proposed GOP legislation, at Sect. 303, would also place limits on the amount attorneys can claim as a contingent fee, similar to the one already in place under the Massachusetts Medical Malpractice Act of 1986.  This section, cynically, is entitled "maximizing patient recovery," which is to be accomplished by creating disincentives for attorneys to take meritorious cases where, due to insurance industry defense practices, even meritorious med mal cases have become prohibitively expensive.

            Let me give you a clear example of how this works based on my own experience.  I do not handle med mal cases as a rule, but several years ago I took the case of a woman who had been taking a treadmill test for a coronary problem when the doctor told her to take a rest but stay on the treadmill while he made some notes.  While she was standing there, the doctor clumsily hit the start button catching the patient unaware and causing her to fall ass over teakettle, and she suffered a broken arm.

            That should be an open and shut case of the doctor's negligence, right?  He was careless, if not in asking that his patient remain on the treadmill at least for hitting the start button without warning to her, and that carelessness was clearly the cause of her injury, all that is needed to make out a case of negligence generally.  But, oh no, this was medical malpractice, subject to the statute don't you know.  So, what should have been a routine negligence case with modest damages as we demanded, and minimal case expenses, became a full blown med mal case under the statute.

            We therefore had to present the case to a three-doctor medical malpractice tribunal as the statute requires, which typically serves to "screen" med mal cases by requiring that the plaintiff post a prohibitively expensive bond before proceeding through litigation.  The insurer who had such difficulty in seeing its way to simply make a reasonable offer to settle a case of obvious negligence had no trouble paying it's high priced law firm to oppose the case before the tribunal, adding significantly to litigation costs which, of course, were just passed on to the doctor in the form of a higher premium.

            Usually, when a case goes before the tribunal the plaintiff needs to retain an expert witness to testify as to the doctor's medical negligence, at a greatly prohibitive cost, which also benefits the liability insurers as a deterrent to medical malpractice suits.  I chose not to hire an expert, however, and the negligence issue was so clear that, after hearing and briefing the issue, the tribunal did not require that we post a bond.  After several more months of pre-trial discovery, the case finally settled for an amount we would have accepted in the first place if the insurer had just made a reasonable counter offer instead of seeking to derail this basically garden variety negligence case, and driving up litigation costs, by invoking the cumbersome and costly med mal tribunal procedure.    

          The GOP bill now pending in the House goes even further than the Massachusetts statute in restricting the rights of individuals injured by medical negligence, and like the Massachusetts statute and the Texas statute, there is no basis to believe it would even have the slightest effect in reducing health costs generally.  Yes, it may reduce your doctor's insurance premium somewhat, but in reality it is nothing more than the Insurance Industry Relief Bill of 2009.

          Such insurance industry relief would be paid for by you and me, of course, in the form of losing our common law right to just compensation for negligently inflicted injuries, while creating a statutory scheme which, if correctly premised by its proponents, will allow doctors who are so inclined greater leeway to cut corners when diagnosing serious and potentially life threatening conditions. 

            That's bad health policy and, as the Ruskin quote above suggests, bad economic policy as well.  If that's what is needed to maintain the present "free market" health insurance business, then it's just another clear argument in favor of a government run, single payer health care system that covers everyone and costs less in the long run by eliminating all those extraneous expenditures private insurers take out of your premium dollar. We need a different approach that allows the bulk of your tax dollar to pay your doctor's bill instead of grossly obscene insurance industry CEO salaries and bonuses, along with other irrelevant corporate costs, as your premium dollar does today.

 

299 comments
Blog posts and comments are entirely the thoughts and ideas of the people who write them and in no way represent the views of CapeCodToday.com, eCape, Inc., or its employees or owners.

11/05/09 @ 2:05 pm
Tom Martin [Member] writes:
So, when does Latimer on the law talk about law? BTW I was a jury foreman on a medical malpractice case. The doctors won because the case was ridiculous but the clinic shut down. Nice work from everyone's favorite profession.
11/05/09 @ 3:18 pm
Richard [Member] writes:
Hi, Tom

It probably won't happen to you, but when guys like you get the wrong kidney taken out, guys like me are suddenly working in their "favorite profession."
11/05/09 @ 3:45 pm
r-five [Member] writes:
After reading this, one is tempted to pray for the full nationalization of health care.

If the "general welfare" clause in the Constitution empowers the State to assume the authority to buy broccoli, then surely it has the power to mandate the extinction of malpractice attornies as a profession.

R-5
11/05/09 @ 3:47 pm
r-five [Member] writes:
editorial revision:

Foregoing should read:

"If the "general welfare" clause in the Constitution empowers the State to assume the authority to compell everyone to buy broccoli, then surely it has the power to mandate the extinction of malpractice attornies as a profession."

Apologies...

R5

11/05/09 @ 4:10 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
R5...no apology needed. Latimer's interpretation of the Constitution is "my way or the highway".

To read his posts reveal why litigation is so expensive. What could be said in a few sentences requires twenty paragraphs. And they get paid by the word. Or is it the hour? Same difference.
11/05/09 @ 6:09 pm
Richard [Member] writes:
Hi, maverick

You're so right about something for once when you say read my posts to see why litigation is so expensive. It's right here in this post where I document the fact that med mal litigation drives up the cost of doctor's liability insurance, not because of us tort lawyers who are ready to settle obviously meritorious claims for reasonable damages, but precisely because the industry makes every med mal case go through the costly process of litigation under "reform" statutes like the one we have here in Massachusetts.

Or maybe you think it's a good idea to have a simple negligence case like a broken arm caused by a doctor's careless pushing a button to start up a treadmill that causes the patient to lose balance and fall down go through a costly med mal tribunal before the plaintiff can get her day in court.

Maybe you're one of those guys who are just fine with a doctor who schedules costly tests only because he's afraid of being sued rather than wanting to get the diagnosis right to best serve his patient.

Like I said, they're depending on folks like you.
11/05/09 @ 6:15 pm
Richard [Member] writes:
r-five

Actually the commerce clause and the general welfare clause have served as the constitutional basis for government to support agriculture with farm subsidies, including many broccoli growers I'm sure, and even tobacco growers in years past.

But of course those are just facts, and like Uncle Ronnie said "facts are stupid things" for guys like you who cling to the mindless "free market" ideology that caused the most devastating economic collapse since 1929 as the result of eight years of GOP deregulation and mismanagement of the economy. Again, more facts, so feel free to ignore them, which is basically to define your determinedly ignorant ideology.
11/05/09 @ 6:23 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
Richard...you know that I like you and share a passion for fly fishing. That being said I am tired of being tried and hung on this site because my thoughts interfere with WB's income stream.

PS...I am more right than you realize. Try me on the phone some day.

Jack
11/05/09 @ 6:50 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Frankly, I'm not going to give the GOP "plan" the time of day nor should anyone else because it is not a good faith attempt to reform health care. Rather, it's a political stunt.

If the GOP had cared about reforming health care it would have:

a. Lifted a finger to do so during the 6 long years it controlled the White House and all of Congress

b. Been involved in the process starting back in May. You know, the way Olympia Snow was. Now, she didn't get everything she wanted, but she got quite a bit. Involvement affected the final outcome.

The GOP leaders know that the way for a party to be involved in a legislative process is NOT to sit on it hands until the bills emerge from committee and then to submit a "plan" diametrically opposed to all the work of many months.

Nope this is absolutely not a serious plan and should not be considered to be one. It's last minute political maneuvering.

Yet another example of the total worthlessness of today's GOP.
11/05/09 @ 7:35 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
dk...keep up the blab. Most of us have no use for the DNC or the GOP.

What we believe in is the truth. There is a minority in this country that at some point will go down fighting for the truth.

11/05/09 @ 7:48 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Maverick,

OK, you tell me why did your "party of truth" - the GOP - do nothing on health care until the bills emerged from committee?

Please tell me. If they knew the truth, why didn't they act on it before the 11th hour?
11/05/09 @ 8:03 pm
possee [Member] writes:
maverick,

Few here realize that the entire problem is corrupt parties,BOTH, yet continue to assail the GOP(rightly so)and defend to the hilt their almighty DNC..especially the current cabal.

Blind allegiance pervails.especially here.


All hail ceasar.

possee
11/06/09 @ 1:08 am
estherandson [Member] writes:
Liability in health care,in schools. Business that avoids liability like the plague.
For those seeking the truth in politics,It is a fallacy.
Change is what is scary. Ideologies are a factor. A government that controls their people can go unnoticed.We are experiencing people who believe in R. Limbaugh,whose words are as close to treason.
"For the Common Good!" is obsolete! People who have, are afraid that they will lose all they have. Afraid to believe,so they mouth off that our President is going to take it all away. The GOP sells fear like fresh fish.It is snapped up from their weakest link, Mr. Boehner. What has been written by Richard is all that the GOP does not want to hear,nor believe.
To all that supported the past eight years of Bush will never admit they were controlled. That is how Hitler came to be.
A lady I met in Florida, believed living in Germany that Hitler did a lot for her country.
Their still are people that believe bush did a lot for our country. Try R. Nixon for more of those seeking truth. Not to mention B. Clinton. "Freedom of Fear!" FDR.
11/06/09 @ 5:02 am
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Maybe if we held these people to account, when we KNOW what they did, it would stop.
We KNOW what crimes were committed by the former regime--they are not allowed in certain countries for god's sakes, because they are wanted for war crimes!!!
Vincent Bugliosi wrote a book on how he could prosecute Bush/Cheney...Kucinich had 38 articles of impeachment drawn up, and the people who now rage against Obama wanted no part of it...talk about blind allegiance.
And btw, I heard this Jerry guy on the radio. He was calling on the people to get out there and rally "for the party". It's all about the hard-right group of crazies who want their power back.
Because, the CBO says that the dems health plan will reduce the deficit over time....and covers people who are now out of the loop.What is wrong with that? And these protesters are worried about taxes, but don't care that one in three dollars they pay in premiums to insurance companies goes to profit-oriented concerns, NOT their care!
We are completely and totally brain-washed to think these companies actuallly care about us.
it's money sucka-$$
11/06/09 @ 7:23 am
Buzz [Member] writes:
Richard writes: "still our(MA) health care costs have risen by eight percent since the enactment of Romney's mandatory health insurance plan in 2006"

And why have those costs risen? Maybe instead of just making such claims we can take a look at why they've increased:
“State health care reform has had some unexpected results,’’ suggested Tim O’Brien, senior vice president at Blue Cross Blue Shield’s headquarters in Boston. “The actual costs have been much higher than what were anticipated when health care reform went into effect in 2007.’’

This redistribution of wealth thing is working out great... hey Richard.
11/06/09 @ 7:51 am
Buzz [Member] writes:
The Constitution doesn't say the "general welfare of the citizens of the United States." It says "general Welfare of the United States." This clause only gives the Congress the power to raise money to defend the country and pay for the day-to-day operations of the government.
11/06/09 @ 8:33 am
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Buzz,

Health Care costs rising 8% in 2 years is as low as it gets in the US these days. 4% per year? That's an incredible bargain.
11/06/09 @ 8:38 am
possee [Member] writes:
Buzz

Facts are stupid things.

The current plan, along with all other drafts, do NOT insure all the unsinsured by a vast margin.
All these bills do, is create a vast monopoly of government regulations while the real reform, is unaddressed by all pols in DC.
GOP protects the insurance gang
DNC taxes everyone, rewards big pharma, while not insuring(for the children)the intended uninsured in the first place.

What a mess!
Need any more proof no one is looking out for us?

possee
11/06/09 @ 8:40 am
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Maverick,

No come back on the GOP's blatant political ploy that it calls its health care "plan"? Could it be that even you understand that this was not a constructive step?

Obama's plan has many problems. But a lot of those deficiencies were caused by the need to answer the never ending political attack of the GOP including the inevitable demagoguery that we'll here from it between enactment and the midterm elections.

As opposed to contributing constructively to health care reform and improving the bill, the GOP has emasculated it and made it worse. Then it tries to cover its tracks at the 11th hour so that they can say: "Here's what we proposed" in next year's midterm elections.

Politics at its absolute worst. Zero concern for the welfare of the country.
11/06/09 @ 8:51 am
Buzz [Member] writes:
dk,

Only 4% what a bargain... in tiny Massachusetts. What happens when the plan goes national? Can you give us some numbers please?
11/06/09 @ 8:56 am
Buzz [Member] writes:
BREAKING NEWS: WASHINGTON (AP) -- The unemployment rate has surpassed 10 percent for the first time since 1983 -- and is likely to go higher.

Wasn't it just last week that the Obama administration was telling us how many jobs were saved/created due to the stimulus plan?

Help me out here.... who should I believe?
11/06/09 @ 9:06 am
maverick [Member] writes:
dk...I had commented weeks ago. I agreed with Newt Gingrich and his feeling the GOP had failed by not coming up with a valid health plan of their own.

But I don't think America should pass a bad plan just for the sake of change.

To set the record straight. I am just as disappointed with the GOP as the rest of the political landscape.

I agree with possee that the only real positive change in this country will come from an independent movement of honest politicians who's only allegiance is to the American people.

PS...I had Jane.Logan problems. I spent the last four days putting in a new fence. My pet cows had been breaking out and running around the neighborhood.
Some of my redneck neighbors would shoot them and say they thought they were deer.
11/06/09 @ 9:11 am
possee [Member] writes:
buzz

Health Care Reform and Other Shibboleths of the Wingnut DNC.

"The economy is rebounding, the recession is over!"

Thank goodness it's only 10.2% and rising.
Imagine what it would be if there was no stimulus..oh, the horrors.
Team Obama was right..fundamentally change the face of America..longer unemployment lines, devalued dollar.

"The labor market is being watched for signs whether the economic recovery that started in the third quarter can be sustained without government support. The economy grew at a 3.5 percent annualized rate in the July-September period, probably ending the most painful U.S. recession in 70 years."WASHINGTON (Reuters)
Spend spend spend!!!!

I love change..

possee
11/06/09 @ 9:27 am
Tom Martin [Member] writes:
Yes richard thats just what i said no one can sue no matter how negligent the doctor. Yes the case i was speaking of the doctor was drunk and cut off botht he patients legs but the jury thought her claims were ridiculus.
11/06/09 @ 9:28 am
Tom Martin [Member] writes:
Bring 10 cases in one year, win one for 2 mil and take 30% plus. yeah that seems like a smart way to run things
11/06/09 @ 9:54 am
possee [Member] writes:
Richard, dk...

Buried in the thousands of pages of the health care bill drafted by Democrats in the House and Senate is a provision to protect insurance companies from legal accountability for benefit decisions that cause injury or death to patients.


page 140 of H.R. 3962 and page 56 of S. 1796, which include language providing immunity for insurance companies, even if the actions they take result in injury or death.

So much for your arguments.

possee
11/06/09 @ 10:04 am
possee [Member] writes:
By RICARDO ALONSO-ZALDIVAR, Associated Press Writer Ricardo Alonso-zaldivar, Associated Press Writer – Thu Nov 5, 6:15 am ET
WASHINGTON – You're afraid your cancer is back, and a health insurance company just turned you down. Under the health care bills in Congress, you could apply for coverage through a new high-risk pool that President Barack Obama promises would immediately start serving patients with pre-existing medical problems. Wait a second. Read the fine print. You may have to be uninsured for six months to qualify.

Kennedy said at the time: “Patients should have the right to hold their [insurance company] accountable in court when its negligence causes the injury or death of a patient. … No other industry in America enjoys immunity from accountability for its actions, and the insurance industry does not deserve it either.”

Thank you Pelosi Reid..

At least Ted had it right.

possee
11/06/09 @ 3:57 pm
possee [Member] writes:
buzz

More wingnuts..ooops, acorns, in New Orleans.
In a fast-breaking development comes word that agents of the Attorney’s General office in Louisiana have raided ACORN’s offices in New Orleans. ACORN’s New Orleans was, for decades, the headquarters of the national community organizing association.
Oh well, crush em and you've got nutbutter.
Spread the word.

possee
11/06/09 @ 4:12 pm
possee [Member] writes:
“Lawmakers could save as much as $54 billion over the next decade by imposing an array of new limits on medical malpractice lawsuits, congressional budget analysts said today — a substantial sum that could help cover the cost of President Obama’s overhaul of the nation’s health system. New research shows that legal reforms would not only lower malpractice insurance premiums for medical providers, but would also spur providers to save money by ordering fewer tests and procedures aimed primarily at defending their decisions in court".
Douglas Elmendorf, director of the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office
11/06/09 @ 4:15 pm
possee [Member] writes:
Check out this juicy morsel to the trial lawyers (page 1431-1433 of the bill):

Section 2531, entitled “Medical Liability Alternatives,” establishes an incentive program for states to adopt and implement alternatives to medical liability litigation. [But]…… a state is not eligible for the incentive payments if that state puts a law on the books that limits attorneys’ fees or imposes caps on damages.

Gotta love those attorneys..always looking out for the little guys.

possee
11/06/09 @ 4:23 pm
possee [Member] writes:
CBO DIRECTOR DOUGLAS ELMENDORF:

New Government Regulations: “[P]remiums in the new insurance exchanges would tend to be higher than the average premiums in the current-law individual market…”

New Taxes On Medical Devices, Prescription Drugs And Clinical Labs: “Those projected premium amounts include the effect of the fees that would be imposed under the proposal on manufacturers and importers of brand name drugs and medical devices, on health insurance providers, and on clinical laboratories. Those fees would increase costs for the affected firms, which would be passed on to purchasers and ultimately would raise insurance fees by a corresponding amount.”

“Our Judgment Is That That Piece Of The Legislation Would Raise Insurance Premiums.”

Quotes from a GOP obstructionist?

possee
11/06/09 @ 4:30 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
possee...Latimer quotes " In any health care lawsuit, the amount of noneconomic damages, if available may be as much as $250,000, regardless of the number of parties against whom the action is brought or the number of separate claims or actions brought with respect to the same injury."

He is salivating in anticipation of the new Health Care. I looked into going to law school last year but was told I was to old. But they suggested joining the mafia as they have no age discrimination.
11/06/09 @ 4:43 pm
Buzz [Member] writes:
possee,

Or this one... "The Joing Commitee on Taxation letter makes clear that Americans who do not maintain “acceptable health insurance coverage” and who choose not to pay the bill’s new individual mandate tax (generally 2.5% of income), are subject to numerous civil and criminal penalties, including criminal fines of up to $250,000 and imprisonment of up to five years.

11/06/09 @ 4:55 pm
possee [Member] writes:
maverick

Did you see the report yesterday regarding the new transfer of power from Louis Baby Shanks Monacchio, Federal Hill. to a new NE boss in Boston?
They listed the power struggle from SR, to jr, to Bianco, to Monacchio.
Oh well, there goes our chances.

buzz, maverick..at least when the shi* hits the fan soon, we were at the least, ready.
My only problem is, I have so little cash yet alone to fill a wheel barrel for a loaf of bread.
Guess I'll load up on adult beverages, and ammo.

possee
11/06/09 @ 4:59 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Can't beat this though...lying and manipulating evidence to send American troops to war, and doing everything you can to block investigation into 9/11, of which millions of Americans believe you to be involved in.

Your finds pale in comparison.
11/06/09 @ 5:11 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
possee...missed it... Do you have a link?

bitter... are you suggesting GB flew one of the planes on 9/11? And that democrats didn't support the evidence to go to war in Iraq?
11/06/09 @ 5:44 pm
possee [Member] writes:
maverick

Here's the mob link.

http://www.wpri.com/subindex/target_12/inside_mafia

Enjoy, and reminisce.
I'll call you at 6 pm

possee
11/06/09 @ 9:30 pm
Richard [Member] writes:
Hey, Buzz

You gotta read the whole Constitution, especially the part that begins "We the People," i.e. the citizens of the U.S. of A. It's the people for whom our constitutional protections and amenities exist, and it's just so much idiotic twaddle to argue as you do that the "general welfare of the United States" means anything other than the general welfare of its people.

Give it up. You guys had eight years in the White House, six of them in control of the whole government, and you failed. That's the whole story, pal, so now it's time to get back on track with a government that exists to serve the People and not the petroleum defense industries like the GOP has been doing and still wants to do.
11/06/09 @ 10:06 pm
Richard [Member] writes:
Hi, Possee

Now you and I both know that neither the Democrats House Bill or Senate Bill says anything about immunity for insurance companies when benefit denials or terminations result in injury or death.

Both bills make oblique reference to ERISA Sect. 514, i.e. existing law which already provides such immunity from state law claims. Personally, I think that's a sick joke because the theory is that since ERISA is a labor law and not an insurance law it's not open to remedies under state tort law, and insurance companies are considered "fiduciaries."

I deal with that nonsense all the time in my practice and I believe it's something that should be remedied directly by future amendment of ERISA, but for political purposes of getting a workable health reform package passed it's not necessary at this time.

Your attempt here to put words into the Democrat's health reform bills that aren't there is so typical of the obstructionist innuendo and outright lying that we're getting from the right wing pols and media hacks who just want to see Obama fail -like they did.
11/06/09 @ 11:16 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Oh but possee is not biased against the dems...he's fair and balanced. He's just as relentless against the republicans. hahahahaha...ahahahaha....ohohohohoh-drop the front and come out as the right-wing lover that you are. It's c-l-e-a-n-s-i-n-g to be honest with yourself.
"are you suggesting GB flew one of the planes on 9/11?"
Are you suggesting that Obama wrote the healthcare bill?
"And that democrats didn't support the evidence to go to war in Iraq?"
Didn't matter what the dems did...they had zero power under the iron thumb of thuglican control.

I'm suggesting that you are throwing rocks because you are afraid to pick up the boulder.
The big bad boulder of truth about your fallen hero's. So you flail around at anything to take the attention away from the real dirty business that went on here.
Much like the chicken-hawks who were adament to send other's kids to war, you fail to admit to your own weakness.
One thing I will say though...on 9/11,GWB told the kids in that classroom that he saw the first plane fly into the building as he was coming in the classroom...it hadn't hit yet!
11/07/09 @ 6:33 am
possee [Member] writes:
Richard

Those were exact quotes from
CBO Director Douglas Elmendorf.

Not from the GOP.

There you go again out.. every criticism of Democrats, immediately recieves the usual "GOP/Right wing obstructionist" diatribe.
Please , get over the GOP and face the fact that ,unlike right and left wing party footsoldiers,independents actually exist.
And neither the GOP, DNC, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, nor Obama are my religious leaders.
They may be your saviours or devils, but not mine.
You hard nosed democrats are exactly like the hard nosed repubs.
Spending your entire reign of power blaming the former caesar..
Repubs spent 8 years blaming clinton for their failure to effectively legislate.
And now, the dems continue the rant, with their saviours daily rant of 'inheritance"..

possee
11/07/09 @ 6:41 am
bittersweet [Member] writes:
23 Jun 2006--
By Greg Szymanski
While the country is preoccupied with terrorism, the war in Iraq and 9/11, thugs controlling the takeover of America are stealing citizens blind to the tune of $55 to $300 trillion dollars, according to an undercover financial report by the London-based International Currency Review.
The up-to-date report just released confirms that $27.5 trillion first raised from 1989-1992 to finance the imposition of the New World Order has now covertly blossomed into much, much more as Americans have been conveniently “made to look left when they should be looking right.”
Get it?
Perhaps Obama was put in to stop it.
And perhaps that explains the out-of-wack craziness of the current righties in the forefront of media-we should be "looking right",and they sure don't want us to. Hence all this crazy diversive nonsense.
Just watch these:
John Stewart Returns, Slams Glenn Beck and Tea Party Protesters
John Stewart Owns Glenn Beck on Healthcare Hypocricy
They totally contradict their words from years ago!
Obviously,they are working for an agenda,not any sense of truth.
11/07/09 @ 6:49 am
possee [Member] writes:
bitter
Why is criticism of dems and Obama a defense of Bush and GOP?

Just as your attorney friend fails to accept that there is another completely different mindset outside the narrow minded dnc/gop crap.
In your own words.."they are working for an agenda'..exactly

I have read .. http://www.worldreports.org/

possee
11/07/09 @ 7:00 am
possee [Member] writes:
From the non-partisan Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) confirming that the failure to comply with the individual mandate to buy health insurance contained in the Pelosi health care bill (H.R. 3962, as amended) could land people in jail. The JCT letter makes clear that Americans who do not maintain “acceptable health insurance coverage” and who choose not to pay the bill’s new individual mandate tax (generally 2.5% of income), are subject to numerous civil and criminal penalties, including criminal fines of up to $250,000 and imprisonment of up to five years.

Section 7203 – misdemeanor willful failure to pay is punishable by a fine of up to $25,000 and/or imprisonment of up to one year.

• Section 7201 – felony willful evasion is punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment of up to five years.”

How's that for an agenda?

possee
11/07/09 @ 7:12 am
possee [Member] writes:
"Death squads, disappearances and torture in Pakistan By Bill Van Auken 16 Sep 2009 As the Obama administration prepares a major escalation of the so-called AfPak war, reports from Pakistan’s Swat Valley, near Afghanistan’s eastern border, provide a gruesome indication of the kind of war that the Pentagon and its local allies are waging. While touted by Obama and his supporters as the "good war," there is mounting evidence that the Pentagon and the CIA are engaged in a war against the population of the region involving death squads, disappearances and torture."

http://www.legitgov.org/blackwater_xe_in_pakistan.html

This is from a non GOP/ Obstructionist website..

Lot's of chatter and accusations out there..the truth? Who knows/

possee
11/07/09 @ 8:02 am
crusader [Member] writes:
Richard,

If only people could see headlines of which corp. have been making mil.$ contributions & where--maybe they would finally get it. Do you think the new & old money have saved enough in their tax free off shore accounts? What they claim is legal should be criminal & those accounts the IRS has recently reported seized, & returned from over 70 different countries? What does that say? It's the biggest heist & assault against the American people since the depression. Unemployment is still on the rise, continued foreclosures, healthcare reform on hold--why? Because global networks are in collusion politicians. If Obama wants to make a difference, he's got to get tougher, both parties under his leadership also need to stand tall against obvious tyranny, take down Wallstreet thugs for intentionally destroying the middle class Americans who stabilize our economy. I hear layoffs are coming to the RMV. That's one place that needs a major overhaul.

Didn't you know it's "The World According to Buzz"? He doesn't step one foot out of his own fabricated diluted world of ignorance.
11/07/09 @ 8:12 am
crusader [Member] writes:
"You gotta read the whole Constitution, especially the part that begins "We the People," i.e. the citizens of the U.S. of A. --No Richard, it's--"ME, ME, ME, BUZZ...to hell w/the others". He only cares about himself, Richard. Hasn't he made that abundantly clear on these blogwaves for YEARS! If you are out of a job, IT'S YOUR FAULT (ask him who he works for, bet he doesn't have the balls to tell you) YOU GOT LAID OFF=IT'S YOUR FAULT, you got ripped off by a fireman and a real estate shark who wanted to steal your home, not pay rent for 7 mo's, cops don't help because they are all part of the "brotherhood", as well as courts=YOUR FAULT. People are suing-that what it takes?

"It's the people for whom our constitutional protections and amenities exist.."

Give it up. You guys had eight years in the White House, six of them in control of the whole government, and you failed. That's the whole story, pal, so now it's time to get back on track with a government that exists to serve the People and not the petroleum defense industries like the GOP has been doing and still wants to do". YES!
11/07/09 @ 8:24 am
crusader [Member] writes:
Richard,

The BIG MONEY MACHINE is very much a large segment of what CC is & always has been. Our combined comments from previous post--is precisely my point.
Sure, there are very good people on the Cape that carve out their own lives, but you will notice, those are the ones who have very little to do with local politics or are involved w/how $ flows. It is an island, but a very politically powerful, isolated island. The only thing that connects it to the rest of the state is a BRIDGE.

If you dig deep enough, you will see the underbelly & what connects some of these cases together. Sure, it goes on everywhere--the same old mantra, over and over again. But shouldn't the "good people" of Cape Cod, at least be made AWARE of what goes on down there?

If I had known about what goes on there, you think I would invested 6 years of my life, and a large portion of my families inheritance? NO WAY.

It's the same from a global perspective.

If we all continue to drink the tainted kool-aid, not open our eyes wide, to the state of this nation, fight back-- IT'S ON US? Sure Buzz won't agree.

11/07/09 @ 8:41 am
Buzz [Member] writes:
cru,

Did you get any sleep last night? You seem very angry this morning. How can I be of help?
11/07/09 @ 8:43 am
Buzz [Member] writes:
Richard,

"Since the 1930s, the Supreme Court has been reluctant to invalidate "regulatory" taxes. However, a tax that is so clearly a penalty for failing to comply with requirements otherwise beyond Congress's constitutional power will present the question whether there are any limits on Congress's power to regulate individual Americans. The Supreme Court has never accepted such a proposition, and it is unlikely to accept it now, even in an area as important as health care."

DAVID B. RIVKIN JR. AND LEE A. CASEY
Constitutional Lawyers



And don't forget the 10th amendment.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people..... but, you already knew that.
11/07/09 @ 9:14 am
capedoggie [Member] writes:
Crusader,
I am so pleased that Buzz is concerned about you. I know full well how it feels to fritter away a family fortune and inheritance.Do the other family members know about this?? Was it that big??? You Winter Hill girls have been known to overspend.
Now I have to check on Buzz. He is very worried about you. I may have a passenger to Luke's.

Dawg
11/07/09 @ 9:19 am
Buzz [Member] writes:
Dawg,

If she had only put it in the "off-shore, tax-free" account like the rest of us.... she'd be on easy street.
11/07/09 @ 10:47 am
crusader [Member] writes:
LOL...you guys really think you can get to me...you make me laugh. Maybe try some REAL EDUCATION and go find Michael Donovan's Case on the website if you think you are so smart.

Then come back here and explain it away.

You are about to have a real kickass awakening sometime in the near future from all that's been going on, smelling like low tide, a real foul stench.

I'll be fine. We all must learn some hard lessons in life and that which makes us STRONGER. At least I didn't end up in AA or rehab like many others.

Tell us where you WORK BUZZ, you don't have the guts to tell Richard or the other readers do you? Maybe because it will be YOU WHO LOSE ALL CREDIBILITY.

Peter Manso is a coward with blood on his hands.

It's all about self preservation at this stage of the game.

There are those on the Cape I will always care about and continue to be a true friend.

Those who continue their own home grown terrorism have ruined many innocent lives. Set ups and back stabbing days are over. The expose' is in the making, and many of us bystanders have seen it go on for far too long.
11/07/09 @ 10:50 am
Buzz [Member] writes:
Michael Donavan the Irish step dancer?
11/07/09 @ 11:13 am
crusader [Member] writes:
Again, the Federal Courts have recognized that in RICO cases patterns take time to be recognized by the victims. This plaintiff does not know if the probate situation above is related, but does remember that in the written material sent to the plaintiff from the Association of National Security Alumni, (in what the Association was calling 'illegal government harassment', and what this plaintiff sees as racketeering with government involvement) it was stated that the "first order of business is always to destroy the victim financially thereby rendering the victim helpless before the courts..."

wonder if Busby and Donovan know each other....hmmmm

11/07/09 @ 11:27 am
Buzz [Member] writes:
Honestly, I'm just trying to figure out who Michael Donovan is? Was he with Herman's Hermits?
11/07/09 @ 11:33 am
capedoggie [Member] writes:
crusader,
"There are those on the Cape I will always care about and continue to be a true friend."
I would certainly hope that Buzz and I are in that select group.
AA and rehab groups are not for me.

PS I know who Michael Donovan is.
Donovan Forms; they did work on my wine cellar.
Standing by
11/07/09 @ 11:37 am
Buzz [Member] writes:
I think she means Michael Finnigin:

There once was a man named Michael Finnigin,
He grew whiskers on his chinnigin,
Shaved them off and they grew innigin,
Poor old Michael Finnigin.
11/07/09 @ 11:43 am
bittersweet [Member] writes:
There once was a man named O'Keefe
Who caused people way too much grief
Aided by Nickerson Mason and Welsh
The truth and it's consequences must therefore be squelched

oooops...IMO IMO iMO
11/07/09 @ 11:45 am
bittersweet [Member] writes:
"Why is criticism of dems and Obama a defense of Bush and GOP?"

It's not. Lack of criticism of Bush and the GOP is support for them.
11/07/09 @ 11:48 am
bittersweet [Member] writes:
"the Pentagon and the CIA are engaged in a war against the population of the region involving death squads, disappearances and torture."

Yes..the Pentagon/MIC, contractors, weapons manufacturers.....various other businesses that spring up...
They are more powerful than our elected gvt.!
As Vidal said, "They are making decisions about war, when it used to be the purvue of the Congress".
Hello!!!
11/07/09 @ 12:22 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Buzz,

You ask:

"Only 4% what a bargain... in tiny Massachusetts. What happens when the plan goes national? Can you give us some numbers please?"

Fist, here's a much more relevant question:

"At what rate were health care costs growing in MA before the new health care plan?".

I don't know the answer to that, but that would be important information. There's a good chance that 4%/year is a decrease. Heck, if MA was increasing at the national rate before it instituted its new plan, then 4% would definitely be a decrease.

Second, there's no reason to think that doing something like the MA approach at a larger level (nationwide) would cost more: In fact, the concept of economies-of-scale says that it should cost less. This concept applies more to insurance than it does to most businesses: Large groups have much greater power to negotiate rates.

Overall, you're on very shaky ground when you assume that a plan like MA's would cost more at the national level. It's much more likely that it would be cheaper.
11/07/09 @ 12:26 pm
crusader [Member] writes:
RICO will clean house...Manso is a fraud who will be exposed for his role in ruining lives.

Michael Donovan exposed corruption and he along with many others had their lives destroyed, even after exhausting efforts to blow the whistle. Suicides they are not, too many fear retribution!
11/07/09 @ 12:35 pm
capedoggie [Member] writes:
Crusader,
Way too many names!!!! Now you are saying that Rico Petrocelli is going to be involved???

Standing by,
Doggie
11/07/09 @ 12:50 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
What is this, the return of Jack Coleman?
capedoggie=jack coleman?

buzz, where do you work? Not the name or anything, just the profession?
11/07/09 @ 1:07 pm
Buzz [Member] writes:
bitter,

I work for Vandelay Industries... owned by Art Vandelay and we're in the Latex business.
11/07/09 @ 1:07 pm
crusader [Member] writes:
RICO-..."laws can be applied in an attempt to curb alleged abuses of the legal system by individuals or corporations who utilize the courts as a weapon to retaliate against whistle blowers, victims, or to SILENCE ANOTHER'S SPEECH.

RICO could be alleged if it can be shown that lawyers and/or their clients conspired and collaborated to concoct fictitious legal complaints solely in retribution and retaliation for themselves having been brought before the courts".
11/07/09 @ 1:08 pm
Buzz [Member] writes:
bitter,

Where do you work?
11/07/09 @ 1:19 pm
Buzz [Member] writes:
dk,

You say: "Overall, you're on very shaky ground when you assume that a plan like MA's would cost more at the national level. It's much more likely that it would be cheaper."

Cheaper? Can you give us some examples please?
11/07/09 @ 1:48 pm
crusader [Member] writes:
Bitter,

His coworkers are forced to wear latex suits to fend of the deep pool of bullshit.

He must have a latex computer strapped to his Gumby head.
11/07/09 @ 1:56 pm
capedoggie [Member] writes:
Crusader et al,
How cum no one wants to know where I work???
Did it ever occur to you and some of the other dingbats here that no one gives a fat rats ass who works where, except you, who has no job.
Maybe we could all meet at The Bookstore, and look at THEIR deep pool of bullshit!!

Standing by.
11/07/09 @ 2:37 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Buzz:

You ask for examples of larger insurance systems costing less. That’s child’s play:

1st, Medicare is cheaper than private insurance. Its overhead (3%) is MUCH lower than that of private (20% - 30%). Premiums are lower too because it is HUGE & very powerful (able to negotiate low rates).

2nd, compare any country with a nationalized system to ours: Every single one is much cheaper per capita. As with Medicare, these systems are HUGE & very good at controlling costs.

3rd, examine all of the private insurance markets in the world. Initially, there tend to be big private players & small private players. Because of their greater market power, the big boys are able to negotiate lower prices with providers and they can offer lower rates to employers. One caveat, however: In private insurance, the small boys are almost always run out of the market which leaves 1 or 2 big boys who jack up their rates again. Strange as it may seem, there really isn't much competition in most private markets.

Without exception, large insurance systems are much cheaper than small ones
11/07/09 @ 2:43 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
One more thing Buzz:

Ask anyone who works in insurance (as I did for about 12 years): Having a large group is a fundamental requirement to being competitive.

- One administrative system for more policies (lower cost/policy)
- One sales and marketing system (lower cost/policy)
- More policies to spread losses over should an unforeseen event occur.
- MUCH more power to negotiate with providers (important in health insurance, not as important in other types of insurance).

This is a maxim of insurance.
11/07/09 @ 2:46 pm
margebunny21 [Member] writes:
crusader [Member] writes:
Bitter,

His coworkers are forced to wear latex suits to fend of the deep pool of bullshit.
-------------------------------------

BUZZ is'nt alone in questioning the validity of your statements. You post anonymously, yet NAME real people in your accusations + "attack posts" as well.To ask or assume the public to believe
what you post is A LOT to ask.

How do we know you're not just another
wannabee writer with $$$ signs in her eyes?There are quite a few around these days and sometimes they adopt self-promoting "saviour" names like CRUSADER.

To live in a glass house is one thing but to paint little "birds" (middle-finger gesture) on it is another,
and that's what you do.

What happened to that IGNORE BUTTON you mentioned last week?
Maybe you should connect it to the NOAA website,
so when the weather's fair, you can just "ignore" it.

Guess it's kinda like the seat belt
of an '85 Ford.
If you don't use it, you hear an annoying BUZZ.
11/07/09 @ 3:02 pm
crusader [Member] writes:
Bitter,

Who knew-RICO applies to the non civil, disobedient self-servants! Bunny must also subscribe...lol.
11/07/09 @ 3:47 pm
Buzz [Member] writes:
dk,

What's the exhaustion date for Medicare? Is it 2017? Tell me, how many doctors and hospitals will survive when the government cuts their pay/payments as they've done with Medicare?

Your argument is less than convincing.
11/07/09 @ 4:01 pm
Buzz [Member] writes:
cru,

You woke up this morning and the first thing you do is to attack and call me names. I'm not sure why, is it because I tend to challenge your ridiculous claims? You never seem to answer my challenges.. I think we all know why.

I'll try to explain it one more time. You come here and air-out your dirty laundry... you don't take any responsibility for your misfortunes but tend to blame anyone and everything except yourself. You can't expect people not to challenge your claims. This is a blog, it's what people do.

Your claim about the hospital and the "validated threat" really bothered me. For the sake of the victim, the hospital and all those involved. You had no basis or fact to make such a claim but it true cru fashion... you did anyway. That's called irresponsibility. There are people struggling on both sides dealing with this and they don't need someone with no clue of what happened making such a claim.

Now if you have a problem with what I've said, first answer why you made such a claim and we'll go from there. Otherwise....put a lid on it.



11/07/09 @ 4:33 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
crusader..I'm not answering for you, not in the least. But that just made me say *what?*
"You can't expect people not to challenge your claims. This is a blog, it's what people do."
Well,crusader was challenging the Hospital's claims! Isn't that the same thing? You challenge crusader because it's personal.
Because you never say a peep when maverick insults the people of Cape Cod. And he's said worse than crusader!!
Plus, you always misconstrue everything..on purpose imo.
Sharing problems is a way to help solve them and a way for others to not feel so alone.
And you cheerleaders for the establishment have no right to talk about irresponsability. The WORST crime in history is just passed off as nothing. The WORST administration in history is given a pass.And a horrible injustice is just supposed to be forgotten.
so nanee booboo
And doggie..close your eyes.
buzz, I work for a hotel. A mom and pop operation. Also in the summer, I clean for a family from LA who own an estate in E. Orleans.
Right now is bare-bones hours for just the core few of us who are here year-round.That's why I blog
11/07/09 @ 4:51 pm
Buzz [Member] writes:
bitter,
I asked cru a specific question as to how she knew that... "no one validated the man was a threat". I wanted to know how she knew that? I'm still waiting.

I don't "cheerlead" anyone, I just don't happen to buy into conspiracy theories like you. As odd as it may seem to you, I just don't happen to believe that our government was involved in taking down 3.000 american lives. Yes, I will challenge you and others to prove your claims.... so far, nothing.

I'm glad you have a job and I hope you enjoy what you do. I've had several jobs in the past cleaning bathrooms, restaurants and homes. For the past 27 years... after putting myself through college, I was fortunate to find my way into a good career. It wasn't easy at first, long hours, average pay, working holidays and nights. I even took on a second job to make ends meet. I've been with my current employer for 13 years and enjoy the job and company. I blog because I enjoy it. I don't take it to seriously like others.
11/07/09 @ 4:55 pm
Buzz [Member] writes:
re: mav and his dislike for the people of CC. I've certainly called him on it in the past. He makes a blanket statement and I think its done most of the time tongue-in-cheek... unlike cru who's claims are vindictive and wrong.
11/07/09 @ 4:57 pm
crusader [Member] writes:
Hey bitter,

Isn't it revolting when Buzz plays the victim, along with his obvious cohorts who try as hard as they might to keep it all under wraps?

I shared just some of the intentional misdeeds to EXPOSE--you might just call it a HEIGHTENING AWARENESS CAMPAIGN. You wish to discuss DIRTY LAUNDRY? Mind is not, it's a form of TERRORISM, because of my writing, what I have exposed. It is deliberate and systematic. You think you have a streak of bad, one thing after another--when suddenly it occurs to you--so do others who DARED POINT OUT THE OBVIOUS CORRUPTION THAT GOES ON. Where shall we begin?

L. Silva, C. Worthington, S. Reine, just for starters. What do all three murders have in common? Does anybody feel inclined to take a guess? Try M.McPhee's article, "Murder She Wrought" for some clues. I don't suppose Buzz has the gonads to call her up and accuse her of being a FRAUD, or one who is delusional, crazy, worthless, unemployable. But interestingly enough, some who also have pointed out same things are labeled as such.

Shall we continue? Busby, Lancaster, how many others?
11/07/09 @ 5:08 pm
crusader [Member] writes:
bunny, says I must want to seek fame & fortune, planning my own book...HA! You think I would be that naive? Save the downright stupidity for your two spin master writers Flook & Manso, Inc., the Cape Cod tag team to the rescue when you need a big fat band-aid for something that went horribly wrong.

I said some really bad things about people? Yeah, like what that plenty of other people have said, in the press, in a court of law, during testimony, to my face, in person, on the phone, on the internet, on court tv, on other sites. Have they all been outed for their slanderous treason to the sacred island of Mayflower purity? I guess I missed that. Why don't I tell you know I am? Well, it just could be that others have & you see their fate has not got much better than mine--in fact, it's got MUCH WORSE, so I maintain whatever is left of my anonymity (others have dug until they found out who I am, they have been bold enough to tell me so) but yet, no one comes to visit. What a brazen lot they are, these enemies behind their computers.

Sure Busby & Donovan could share a lot, don't you?
11/07/09 @ 5:15 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
cru and bitter...the highlight of my last years would be sitting down with you, buzz, possee and above all Peter Walker for a grog and a few laughs.

Forget politics, just talk about all the crazies in our lives.
11/07/09 @ 5:18 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
PS...can I invite Peck? Still love him despite his wayward ways.
11/07/09 @ 5:19 pm
crusader [Member] writes:
Okay, here's the magic question of the hour, hoping some brave soul will answer--Be it a seasoned PI who has in the past been so kind to chime in & grant me a handshake or could even be the lady at the donut shop who would like to get something off her chest, the Cape landscaper just had to reach out....

Why did the Worthington Jurors all flee the state after the trial of ill repute?

How about Busby? Lost his job, claim was over 5 states, he always had to move around. Was the poor man & his family moving targets? Read the book.

This guy Michael Donovan, who claimed to own a newspaper on the island. He mentions all kinds of evil deeds perpetrated on innocent people, one even himself! Are they all crazy wack jobs who have nothing better to do with their time?

I'm sure the jurors all had jobs and families they left behind. How much stress is it to have to deal with a botched up trial, then to find out you are hunted game by the very residents who you thought were such good buddies. SURPRISE!! How are their lives now? Are they living it up royally? Something tells me NO WAY JOSE'!

11/07/09 @ 5:26 pm
karent2 [Member] writes:
But not me. Great, thanks. Invite the lunatics for a grog but the sane ones stay away. Me and dawg will go to the Bookstore.
11/07/09 @ 5:28 pm
karent2 [Member] writes:
Funny, YOU moved away after the trial didn't you? So you're in on it!! I KNEW IT!!
11/07/09 @ 5:28 pm
karent2 [Member] writes:
It;s called moving on with your life, something that has slipped by you.
11/07/09 @ 5:39 pm
crusader [Member] writes:
Hey bunny, have you figured out why Manso and his cohorts have formed a lynch mob against me & others who wrote about that trial? Because you see, my bunny, my blogging & comments don't come with a big fat price tag as his & as my good friend Michael Mazzone once said, "hell, you've already written 10 books & they have all been read by many of us even here in Florida". To my shock & surprise, I had no idea. I didn't boast about receiving a whopping $350k from the publisher as Flooksy did to my slithering serpent boss builder. I'm sure he only saw $ signs, but she thought more..HA! I think she may have got more than a few stories, "up to the the loft", he said. Collusion is collusion, no matter which way you slice the rotten clam pie, it all stinks.

Manso tried to hire me to go dig into Worthington R.Estate, tried to enlist others to do his dirty work on other stuff he was too gutless to venture into. I walked away-he got angry, I saw a rat & a trap, so I took the high road, but had to EXPOSE! Why was he so bent on silencing others? Just for his ill gotten gains? Or more?
11/07/09 @ 5:45 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
karent2...you are invited as my special guest. You shall sit at the head table with cru. Might I bring pistols, swords or grenades?

I will moderate the debate between you, cru and buzz.

Looking forward to a great evening of fun. I hope Carl B. shows up with song and dance while Peck delivers a few one liners.

None of them make any sense but it is entertainment.
11/07/09 @ 5:47 pm
crusader [Member] writes:
Maverick!

That would be fun, sign me up. Can we invite Officer Busby, Michael Donovan and a few others. Maybe the Worthington Jurors would like to join us, what the heck, we could all swap notes. I bet we could really form a completion to the widening puzzle.

Did you say crazies? Well, I think that they are on the other side of the fence, Mav, and Buzz seems to know because he is protecting them.

Oh, but he does want to know about those sawed off serial numbers (although I've heard you can really find out who the gun belongs)the DA had from his missing gun collection. Strange how it was shortly after the incident with the doc and her husband with the walker on pain med's. Just a timing thing, I'm sure.

So, it's only the gun story he's concerned with, but nothing else. Well, that figures. Some have asked me why I don't just call Michael O'Keefe up and ask him for an interview. Gee, maybe I should. What do you think? Shall I look for a dark sedan to pick me up here in Somerville, or will he invite me over for a towel toga party at the Four Seasons? I bet Flooksy would be jealous.
11/07/09 @ 6:00 pm
crusader [Member] writes:
Hey Mav,

I'll bring the wine. But don't tell anyone, they might just get the wrong idea. When I showed up with 2 bottles of white, at Manso's invitation, wife present, (I didn't want the red HE OFFERED), suddenly it was all over the blogsphere & courthouse that I was trying to hit on him!

HA HA HA...when I heard this, I almost wet my pants laughing so hard. He went on to say, I was dressed to the nine's--when in fact, I was wearing an old sweater & a pair of jeans. Can I help it if he was glaring at me while he insisted I take a look at his upstairs tub he ranted that he was suing over, refused to pay, since the plumber put in a tub the size for a miget! But it's just his size! Isn't that what he ordered? Not so nice to cheat a plumber, I thought. Well, it just goes to show how some people are in that realm of literary garbage cans. He had a lot more to say, none of it very flattering about the Worthington's and others. Not a nice man, that Peter Manso. I just hope that everyone knows what kind of low down scoundrel he is, just an untrustworthy opportunist like Flooksy.
11/07/09 @ 6:01 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
There would be some laughs...geezuz, remember cw2? Going back to those old crazy posts would be a riot! Like landing on another planet.
But, the bottom line is this:
The way buzz feels about our gvt. and 9/11 is exactly how I feel about the Worthington trial..all these years later, it's still just as raw.

"I will challenge you and others to prove your claims.... so far, nothing."

And I mean nothing.
11/07/09 @ 6:03 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Oh, and talking about weird...
This morning I was googling Leo Wanta, and Cape Cod Today came up on the list of pages!!
I had no idea that what you talk about ends up all over the net!!!
11/07/09 @ 6:04 pm
margebunny21 [Member] writes:
Here crusader writes:

"bunny, says I must want to seek fame & fortune, planning my own book...HA! You think I would be that naive? "

BUT- a few posts later:

"I didn't boast about receiving a whopping $350k from the publisher"

You just DID boast.
And $350K is far from the realm of naivete.
It sounds like you're validating the
point I made about your business interests.

Naive = contradicting a statement you
made 2 posts earlier.

Naive= believing something on hearsay
(like a blog) without examining sources close enough.

Naive= assuming I personally give two
dilliwogs about "Peter Manso".

But do please continue, Crusader.

As I stated a week ago, your
posts are quite amusing...
11/07/09 @ 6:10 pm
Buzz [Member] writes:
cru suggests all the Worthington jurors moved away and wonders why.

Good question, why don't you track them down and ask them.... then we'll know.

11/07/09 @ 6:11 pm
Buzz [Member] writes:
cru,

I read Michelle McPhee's article and fail to see where she mentions any connection between the crimes. Did I miss something?
11/07/09 @ 6:17 pm
crusader [Member] writes:
bunny,

NOT MINE! LOL...FLOOKS!

Maria Flook was sitting in a room just in front of me, drowning in the most repulsive cheap cologne and pancake makeup, bragging to the boss about her advance from DoubleDay...$350k...

Sorry you are having difficulty KEEPING UP with the comments. Is it reading comprehension or just lack of readership? Don't sweat it. Looks like you are a newbie. Maybe someone can fill in the gaps for you or you can simply fall down the next rabbit hole, like the others always do, sooner or later.

If you and your friends wish to confront me face to face, I'd be happy to oblige. I'm still waiting for the cowardice Buzzard to meet me over filet mignon --hold the cheap A1--IF YOU PLEASE. But, since no one has bothered to pay me a friendly visit or sent me a card, I assume it's all just for dramatics on the blogs. Intimidation tactics I've grown so accustomed, so dull and repetitive as they are.... Can't you guys get MORE CREATIVE THAN THIS? Hell, you even stopped trying to access my facebook, what's up?
11/07/09 @ 6:36 pm
margebunny21 [Member] writes:
Don't even try that Crusader.

Perhaps a cryptic writing style
is standard for you, but this:

"Hey bunny, have you figured out why Manso and his cohorts have formed a lynch mob against me & others who wrote about that trial? Because you see, my bunny, my blogging & comments don't come with a big fat price tag as his & as my good friend Michael Mazzone once said, "hell, you've already written 10 books & they have all been read by many of us even here in Florida". To my shock & surprise, I had no idea. I didn't boast about receiving a whopping $350k from the publisher as Flooksy did to my slithering serpent boss builder."

This really looks like you are saying YOU
"did'nt boast about receiving a whopping 350k"

You can have it either way, but I have not erred.

And I don't "fall into holes".

You're either (naively) trying to change the world single-handedly
or your out to make a buck$$$..

It's one or the other.
11/07/09 @ 6:42 pm
crusader [Member] writes:
"cru suggests all the Worthington jurors moved away and wonders why. Good question, why don't you track them down and ask them.... then we'll know"--you know, it's a great idea, but I can't afford to travel to the far ends of the planet right at the moment to find them! Maybe we could all do a conference call--Worthington Jurors, Officer Busby and Michael Donovan. Maybe it would prompt an entire entourage of Cape victims, along with a big fat dirty laundry list to materialize, ya think!

Buzz [Member] writes:
"cru, I read Michelle McPhee's article and fail to see where she mentions any connection between the crimes. Did I miss something"?--Yes, Buzzard, you missed the boat! Maybe you should contact Michelle McPhee and badger her as you do so diligently to me. I hear she has a talk show, call her up.

I you really wanted some answers, you would look beyond that little hole in the wall you call, "the world according to buzz".

If we do get to meet, plan on bringing an extra large size of A1 sauce.

You'll be wearing it by the end of the evening, I'm sure.
11/07/09 @ 6:57 pm
crusader [Member] writes:
Try these books for light reading:

"The Year We Disappeared",by Cylin Busby & John Busby. I wonder if they have won any lawsuits yet? Just curious.

"Cape Cod Snake Dance". Hard one to find, it has since gone out of print, needs revisions, is the claim. What do you know? Imagine that--Foreword, "This story is partly based on reports in the local newspapers about drug dealers' activities on Cape Cod, Massachusetts. Soon after the author moved to the Cape a considerable shipment of drugs was confiscated by police, stored by police in a safe place until the suspected individuals were taken to court. However, when the evidence was needed in court the police discovered that the confiscated drugs had disappeared! Gone without a trace. Soon thereafter, a series of gruesome murders took place and a few men of big money lost their lives. The man here called Benny was found dead in his magnificent Centerville home overlooking the ocean. "Drilled", by his enemies. Uncountable two-inch drywall screws penetrated his arms, legs, knees and skull". --had enough?

"When Evil Rules", M. McPhee
11/07/09 @ 7:07 pm
crusader [Member] writes:
bunny must be working for Manso.

You are still getting it wrong, bunny, but that is expected. There have been other enlisted to try and discredit what I say.

The truth is harder and scarier than fiction.

If anyone could admit the truth on this blog about the obvious corruption, it would be a miracle!
11/07/09 @ 7:16 pm
crusader [Member] writes:
Done reading? Got more:

"Following the rash of fires in Falmouth..plaintiff suspected that 'terrorism' was deliberately created, 3 Smithmbrothers were found together with bullets in their brains on the porch of a deserted hotel in Buzzards Bay. The paper stated that houses were far from the hotel, they were not. Three shots in succession should have certainly been heard. The DA's Office, (Phillip Rollins) with Lt. James Cummings, mentioned above, came in and ruled the killings suicide, and closed the case in seventy two hours. Seventy two hours! The plaintiff drove over to the Buzzard/s Bay police station. One of the clerks (female) allowed privately that this was murder. The plaintiff reasoned that this could be the link, the person who paid the perpetrators of the rash of fires in money or drugs. The plaintiff also requested the police log of the Falmouth Police department from where the perpetrators were caught. One of the perps, wacked out on booze and cocaine, (the police were called by his parents) stated when arrested that indeed they meant to spread terrorism".M.D.--FICTION?
11/07/09 @ 7:53 pm
margebunny21 [Member] writes:
No Crusader, I am not an
"agent working for Manso"
or whatever you implied.

I am merely an observer who has read quite
a few articles/posts on this site that
has'nt posted much until now.

Since you seem aware of corruption,
think about this:

Ever wonder why you don't see a list
of ingredients on that steak you buy?
Ever wonder why so many people catch
cancer and the medical industry
is SO BIG?? This is a TRILLION $$$
industry were talking about here.

You should wonder why Cecil Rhodes called Dr. Max Gerson a "quack"...

It's because Gerson found the cure for
cancer and other diseases, and it's
75%+ effective to this day.
(google GERSON THERAPY)

Rhodes effectively silenced
Gerson's efforts, and Rhodes
is considered a "scholar"
to this day.

He's really one of the
greatest murderers this
world has ever known.

If you really want to help the world
you should work along these lines.

You may even cure yourself of cancer in the process.
11/07/09 @ 8:15 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Buzz,

Typical: When you get an answer you don't like change the subject. I'll assume that you have accepted the fact that larger insurance systems are cheaper.

I'll try your tactic and ask questions in response to your question:

a.) How many times have actuaries predicted that Medicare would go bankrupt?

b. How many times were they right?

Answers:

a. So many times it's hard to count
b. Never

Medicare has faced actuarial problems over and over. Congress hates to bite the bullet and make the changes required to balance the books, but they eventually do. Same story today.

But you've avoided the essential point here: Even if Medicare has future financial problems it is still MUCH cheaper than private insurance.

If you don't like Medicare's financial woes, just imagine if private insurers were covering the elderly. Things would be immeasurably worse because, remember Buzz, Medicare is cheaper than private insurance. Much cheaper.
11/07/09 @ 8:21 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Also Buzz regarding doctors and hospitals if reimbursement rates go down. I'll respond again with a question:

Why do all of the national health care systems in industrialized countries have lower reimbursement rates than we do AND still provide better care than does our system?

Looks like controlling health care costs does not force doctors and hospitals out of the market.

Many other countries have done this Buzz. Sure doctors can't get filthy rich in those countries like they can here. But those countries make it work AND they outperform us.

What do you want to do? Leave things the way the are today and let health care costs increase at 4 times the rate of inflation until we're flat broke?

Something's gotta give Buzz and doctors making $300K and over is one of those things.
11/07/09 @ 8:23 pm
crusader [Member] writes:

"You may even cure yourself of cancer in the process".--

Obviously, you are the one suffering from the disease--CANCER of the MOUTH.
11/07/09 @ 8:38 pm
possee [Member] writes:
maverick, and invited guests..
Ok..make it happen!
Pick a central point for all of us to convene..
(No weapons allowed and will be checked at the door.)

Please set this up before the snow falls..ok?

Mav. make it a private club, or residence, and I'll do the honors of cooking while bantering.
Adult beverages must be provided.

possee
11/07/09 @ 8:48 pm
Richard [Member] writes:
Hey, Possee

Read the freaking bill, if you know how to read. I don't care what Elmendorf or anyone else says, the Dems bills do not create any tort immunity for insurance companies. Both bills say only that the health care reform statute will not affect the existing ERISA statute which does protect insurance companies from state law tort claims, and contract claims as well for that matter, because it is a federal law that provides an exclusive remedy for claim denials.

You're a classic example of the maxim that it ain't what you don't know that screws things up, it's what you know that just ain't so. Give it up.
11/07/09 @ 8:50 pm
capedoggie [Member] writes:
Possee,
Who are the invited guests,and where can we meet??I am happy to host the get together and the booze,but not listen to any more"woe is me" from the lady who occasionally posts here. Maybe we could serve Wellfleet oysters and pizza from that joint that Shelli spoke about.
Humble pie is available for all.

Sitting by
Dog
11/07/09 @ 8:56 pm
possee [Member] writes:
Crusader

Received that info.
Will respond once I delve into it.

Regarding mav's invite..let's make it happen.

Take care

possee
Just got in from work
11/07/09 @ 9:05 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Hey Possee,

Have you read the 2 pages of the bills that you mention? Doesn't look like it.

page 240 of HR 3962 talks about "Relation to Other Requirements; Miscellaneous" and doesn't say a word about insurance company immunity.

Same for page 56 of S. 1796 which talks about State insurance plans and how they relate to the new federal insurance regulations.

I'd send the language of those pages to you but they're too long for this system. I can Email them to you if you give me your EMail address.

Where did you get the idea that those 2 pages provided immunity for insurance companies? Whatever she source, it looks like a bad one.
11/07/09 @ 9:06 pm
margebunny21 [Member] writes:
crusader [Member] writes:
"You may even cure yourself of cancer in the process".--
Obviously, you are the one suffering from the disease--CANCER of the MOUTH.
---------------------------------------
Actually -dearie- my post was more directed at the public.
If one person looked into (or better yet applied)
Gerson Therapy, I'll consider my post a success.

And it's the fingers that are involved here,dearie, not the mouth.

When I see someone like yourself singing
their way into a lion's den, I generally try to warn them. Oh well...

BTW-
I do know from private sources that
Ms. Worthington was a very, very difficult person to work with.
I believe there's an adjective descibing this.

Such poetic justice that she recieves
a posthumous defense from what may be
an equally difficult person.
Quite a tardy defense, really- but do go on.

It's quite amusing.

11/07/09 @ 9:09 pm
crusader [Member] writes:
I vote we keep it off Cape. Maybe RI would be better, sure you and Mav could pick a great spot. I can go there, np.
Trolling Paparazzi NOT WELCOMED.
11/07/09 @ 9:30 pm
crusader [Member] writes:
"BTW-I do know from PRIVATE SOURCES that
Ms. Worthington was a very, very difficult person to work with.
I believe there's an adjective describing this".

Try one of those adjectives on yourself.

Most likely it would be found under homely, undesirable, evil, and white trash. PRIVATE SOURCES, eh? And who might they be? The ugly trolls who couldn't have her? Or the jealous women who probably danced on her grave when they heard of her untimely death. She was probably no different from half the people in that region--hypocrites. My old boss had at least 5 women who called on a regular basis. Bed hopping is not UNCOMMON. But witch hunting obviously IS!

Are you part of the club that subscribes to, "that bitch deserved what she got, because she was nothing but trouble"?

Agenda have we? Are you Flook, or another scorned woman who can't stand the fact she was last on the list of the merry men? How pathetic, but very much anticipated. May Christa haunt you until the day you are no longer on this earth. Easy to ASSASSINATE a dead woman and her character. So fearful are they of the truth.
11/07/09 @ 9:50 pm
crusader [Member] writes:
"When I see someone like yourself singing their way into a lion's den, I generally try to warn them. Oh well.."

Good try, threats don't work here, neither does the advice. I can see my previous posts finally convinced you that I'm not making shit up.

I've always wondered what did happen to Christa's diaries and laptop. I heard she was planning to write her own book in Europe. Too bad she never did get to write it. I'm sure it would have been a best seller, not like what the opportunistic writers have got which is NOTHING!
11/07/09 @ 10:12 pm
margebunny21 [Member] writes:
"When I see someone like yourself singing their way into a lion's den, I generally try to warn them. Oh well.."

Good try, threats don't work here, neither does the advice. I can see my previous posts finally convinced you that I'm not making shit up.
--------------------------------------

I HAVE NOT directed a "threat" to anyone!
It is NOT a "threat" to tell someone
they are treading on dangerous ground.

Anyone who wants to expose corruption is doing this.
A WARNING is not a THREAT.

So don't attack my character
with sensationalistic accusations.


"I can see my previous posts finally convinced you that I'm not making shit up."

What ever gave you THAT idea?

Your previous posts convince me
that you're out to make a buck$$
that's all.

Stop pinning these medals on yourself!

"Agenda have we?"

I have no agenda,
but I do enjoy "getting the last word".

Now, why don't you hush and let me have it...
11/07/09 @ 10:44 pm
crusader [Member] writes:
"Your previous posts convince me
that you're out to make a buck$$
that's all. Stop pinning these medals on yourself"!

Who is putting you up to this? Care to share with everyone here? It's painfully obvious.

I have no book deals. Even if I could write a book about this case, I wouldn't because it would only cause more misery to the people who are undeserving. Those who have committed this crime are still out there--that is what I will always believe by all the evidence which was NOT brought out into the open. I'm not alone in this theory.

Manso wanted to be the demonic poster child for this story. So where's his book? It's only been 5 years. Has he settled all the potential lawsuits yet? He's a fraud and so are you. His book, if it ever does get published will be yet another worthless self-serving dialogue of his own revenge against a region who has force him out into exile. He is despised by many from that island, an intolerant, a$$hole who can never be Norman Mailer, or anyone famous, a flop and knows it. The only one pinning medals on themselves is Manso, Flook and now you.
11/07/09 @ 11:07 pm
margebunny21 [Member] writes:
I do enjoy "getting the last word".
Now, why don't you hush and let me have it...

AHA! So you fell for my little TRAP!

I must say I do feel sorry for Mr. Latimer
but as Jacob Atwood once told me,
"I'm an Attorney- it's my job to separate the dirt from the pudding."

Again, Dearie-- no one is "putting me up to" anything.
Painfully obvious? Well, I certainly don't want you to
go through any pains. I just thought we were
having a (although rough) conversation
that may prove entertaining and possibly
educating to some people.
Please do not insinuate that I am a "troll".
I do not indulge in such decadent activities.

When I said you were trying to "make a buck", I was not referring
specifically to the Worthington trial.
You did spend a little typing time there.

I also fail to see how I am "pinning a medal"
on myself. I'm merely posting what seems obvious!

There's a few more of your points
(accusations, really) I need to address...
11/07/09 @ 11:24 pm
margebunny21 [Member] writes:
Crusader wrote:
"Trolling Paparazzi NOT WELCOMED."

Why do you liken yourself to a celebritry?

Crusader wrote:
Are you part of the club that subscribes to, "that bitch deserved what she got, because she was nothing but trouble"?

I don't adhere to any opinion on this matter, actually.
I was never offended by her personally
but I will say that I have noticed the more problematic persons to get less preferential
service in any area, including law enforcement.

You can wave the U.S. Constitution around all you want,
but the doctrine of human nature has existed from the
dawn of time. It seldom varies.

Cru-baby wrote:
"My old boss had at least 5 women
who called on a regular basis. Bed hopping is not UNCOMMON."

I know you're not too keen on my advice old girl,
but I would'nt post my name next to that if I were you.
11/07/09 @ 11:30 pm
crusader [Member] writes:
bitter,

Shouldn't it be past granny's bedtime. Looks like we've got a live one here tonight.

Let me guess, granny, you are one of those nose in the air, tight a$$ Mayflower sea hags with nothing better but to continue this diatribe. Or an imposter having some jollies. Where did you ever get that grand education? Wellesley College perhaps? You know, dearie, whitetrash comes in all types, not exclusive to the lower level of incomes. There's more in the upper class actually, they just know how to hide their dirt a lot better. That's why they hire lawyers, to keep it all tucked away so the rest of the world can't see it. But if you look close enough, it's as plain as the wrinkled old prune they have for a face--booze face, that is, with dark sunglasses on 24/7 to hide the bags from all that stress of so many bad deeds. Might you be one who has swindled along with Bernie's henchmen? So proper are we, Ha! I'd rather take an honest working class person any day of the week. Your kind are a dime a dozen, eat their own first born before parting with a nickel, stolen off the hardworking.

11/07/09 @ 11:52 pm
crusader [Member] writes:
PETER MANSO? Still up to your old tricks I see! Have you called off your dogs, the one from Canada who tried to find me, working for her boss the writer? Good one! Is he really writing a book on Christa too? HA! You are going all out here, aren't you!! Good Lord, aren't you done with all this Peyton Place hysteria by now? I'll be sure to stick around just long enough to critique anything that needs reviewing when it all comes out! What a hopeless case you and Flooksy are, you should have a nice retirement package coming, maybe you can both share the same youth hostel when this is all out in the open.

Cru-baby wrote:
"My old boss had at least 5 women
who called on a regular basis. Bed hopping is not UNCOMMON."

That's right, you know all about it don't you, granny old girl. Yes, he did try to get me to be #6, but I was too clever a fox for the old dog. His gig was up after #1 -the scorned receptionist-then it was the scorned old bookkeeper, scorned writer, client, realtor...he was a thief to boot! What a hornet's nest. Flooksy was heartbroken thinking she was #1, if she only knew! HA
11/07/09 @ 11:57 pm
margebunny21 [Member] writes:
By the time I got to this:
"Mayflower sea hags"
I have'nt laughed that hard in about a month!!!

So now I am suspected of being
a "white trash"???

You posted this earlier:
"Bed hopping is not UNCOMMON. But witch hunting obviously IS!"

Witch/white trash hunting is the same
thing, yes?
It does'nt seem to "uncommon" lately..
AND WHO IS making the accusations, Crusader?

Such detailed classifications you've listed in your
concluding paragraph, but-

No, I don't drink.
No. I had nothing to do with Madoff.
No, I don't wear sunglasses indoors.
No, I don't have children, nor have I taken a fancy to eating them (heavens!).

You also accused me of being a theif.

Just as you wrote there are different
breeds of "white trash", there are also different kinds of thieves,
like those who steal people's attention.

Like people who WRITE THINGS....
Think about it, Crusader.

"So proper are we, Ha!"

Jolly Good!
11/08/09 @ 12:16 am
crusader [Member] writes:
"like those who steal people's attention" HA!

Is there some mysterious person who is twisting your arm to read or comment?

I was asking you who you are? Of course, you should be allowed to remain anonymous as I, because this is blogging.

Since when do people have the right to come in here and tell us what we can and cannot write?

You have been the one to defame Christa on this blog. Why would you do that, only to add to the long list of envious people, one being your DA, more character assassination, along with Flook in that book, another class act, name dropping, $50 words, snob & bully, even with men, they laugh at her even in church, pinning it on Tim Arnold, poor man. Did he succeed in his own lawsuit? It's rather amusing considering they are compared to the old cliche' --pots calling the kettles black.

An entire book dedicated to worthless writings of a woman who was clearly so jealous of Christa's life. She paraded herself around in front of my boss while waving her $350k book deal--then had the nerve to inquire if he was sleeping with other women. If she only knew.
11/08/09 @ 12:36 am
margebunny21 [Member] writes:
Crusader wrote:
"I was asking you who you are? Of course, you should be allowed to remain anonymous as I, because this is blogging."

Bit of a self-replying question, ay?

Crusader wrote:
"Since when do people have the right to come in here and tell us what we can and cannot write?"

Only authoritative persons (like the site owner)
have that right and no one else.

I do not recall telling you what you
should-and-should'nt write, but I
may comment on it. Correct?

I wrote:
"BTW-I do know from PRIVATE SOURCES that
Ms. Worthington was a very, very difficult person to work with.
I believe there's an adjective describing this".

I think the adjective I forgot was "problematic" or maybe "disagreeable"
though i'm certain you would tack another
adjective on to this as you might me.

I see nor implied any defamation whatsoever. You are wrong again.

Are we getting anywhere?
11/08/09 @ 12:47 am
margebunny21 [Member] writes:
What would it take to convince you
that I am not an "agent" as you imply?

Of course, if I were trying to sell books
and make a name for myself in such a public scenario,
I might declare anonymous opponents
to be "agents" as it would make me
appear unique. It's a strategy...

Cru-el wrote:
Is there some mysterious person who is twisting your arm to read or comment?

Did'nt P.T. Barnum say something like this?
It's a matter of public DECENCY.

Howard Stern described sexual acts openly on
the radio in the mid-80s and when
people said "are'nt you afraid some 8yr old
will hear it?" he said something
like "nobody's twisting their arm. If they don't like it they can
turn it off."...WHAT KIND OF STANDARDS ARE THOSE????

BTW- I'm not a secret agent or sea-hag.
11/08/09 @ 1:04 am
crusader [Member] writes:
"I think the adjective I forgot was "problematic" or maybe "disagreeable"
I see nor implied any defamation whatsoever. You are wrong again. Are we getting anywhere"? --NO!

I see you are recoiling into that self incriminating pose you think will grant you absolution...try again granny.

You have a great deal of nerve persisting in your rants at me when you are the one now trying to do the back peddle on what you inferred about Christa. So, she was difficult? She was problematic? Who are the sources? Care to tell us? Gee, bet it would be a hard task at that. Could it be the devoted cousins who were so quick to throw her under the judicial speeding bus while on the stand. The HBO Queen? They have so much power don't they in the tiny town of Truro, what about else where? Is it fear or disrespect by the town? Can they terrorize the average citizen who is trying to uncover the filth that exists on that island and up here in Boston? Oh, can't have that now can we? Poor Christa, bet she didn't have a clue what she signed up for, did she with that brood.
11/08/09 @ 1:20 am
margebunny21 [Member] writes:
"I see you are recoiling into that self incriminating pose you think will grant you absolution"

Absolution from what? I'm not guilty of anything!

You are SO INTENT on demonizing me in your own mind...

You think i'm a "secret hag that eats sea-babies"

I think all of the theorizing you've done in your mind
is affecting your vision, Crusader.

You're undoubtedly sitting up now,
thinking "i'm gonna get her- i'm gonna get this one."
Take it easy- life is too short.

As far as myself is concerned, I tend to take the same outlook
that Buzz does toward this Blog.

I don't take it too seriously.

Cru-sey wrote:
"You have a great deal of nerve persisting in your rants at me"

I'm just addressing your comments, questions, accusations, inferences, ect.
I don't think there's any "nerve" on my end.
As you posted, "Is someone twisting your arm?"
You act like someone's twisting yours!
Always wanting to get the "last word"-- I notice that.
11/08/09 @ 1:27 am
crusader [Member] writes:
"Did'nt P.T. Barnum say something like this? It's a matter of public DECENCY".

PUBLIC DECENCY stopped at the Door of INJUSTICE, GRANNY! There was a grave injustice committed during this case ,trial-some want answers. GET IT? There is nothing INDECENT about it, unless of course you are someone with a vested interest in NOT wanting this case solved. I'm not old enough to know what PT Barnum said, but I guess you would know. Howard Stern? What a stretch. You are so pure, high and mighty, come down off that pedestal. You are embarrassing yourself.

Koch's, Kennedy's, Heart's, Murdoch's can stop the press, not you. It would be just as easy to grin and bear it. It's not so bad, at least you still have your small community who will always smile at your face and pretend like it really didn't happen. Pretentiousness is their forte. It was all just a terrible mistake. What is there to hide? You've got some rich drug dealers who may have sullied reputations within the Ivy communities? Is that it? I'm sure they won't care. I've got news for you granny, the pimps & whores are on Wallstreet,too!
11/08/09 @ 1:29 am
margebunny21 [Member] writes:
"you are the one now trying to do the back peddle on what you inferred about Christa."

I am not "back-peddling" anywhere.
That is definitely a concept in your mind.
You've done it before, you'll do it again.

And (you can nail me on this) as far as
"Christa Worthington" is concerned:

Frankly, my Dear--
11/08/09 @ 1:38 am
margebunny21 [Member] writes:
"I've got news for you granny, the pimps & whores are on Wallstreet,too!"

That's no news to me, Dearie and i've
known it since (probably) before you were born!

Cru (i'm shortening your name because of the character quota so don't take it as a feather in your cap) wrote:

"Howard Stern? What a stretch."
I can't really figure out the meaning of
this statement.
I don't usually mention the "potty people" like Stern
but the level of your diatribe compelled
me to do so. Sorry about that.

Now again:
Why are you SO CONVINCED that I am
an "agent" or something to that degree?

I don't understand this.
11/08/09 @ 1:50 am
crusader [Member] writes:
For the past 5 yrs, I have been trying to defend my own reputation against the daily rants of slander by some who comment on these blogs.

I have heard people condemn others who also have written the same and share of ongoing harassment they deal with all the time, as Busby did, as Michael Donovan and the jurors who spoke out against racial bias during the trial.

How many more must go through it, until they realize there is a serious problem here? When it is the very people sworn to protect us? When I began writing on these blogs, people were afraid to go to the police about what they knew about the CW case, so many posted instead, your local residents, some I met in person. It was hard to believe at first, but then slowly you could see the obvious patterns that go on, among people who don't even know each other.

The Brazilian man who was shot by Officer Van Ness--his girlfriend was fired from her job the day following the tragic incident. Someone went to his apartment and raided his safe. What is it? Self proclaimed vigilantism? Police have too much power, some abuse it.

11/08/09 @ 1:51 am
margebunny21 [Member] writes:
"unless of course you are someone with a vested interest in NOT wanting this case solved."

Crusader Dear, please pay attention:

The case has already been solved.


This MORBID fascination you have regarding this issue can only be attributed to a desire for personal gain
or a psychological abberation.

You've stated yourself that here are different kinds of "white trash" (not that I like to use that example) and
with that in mind, you should know that there are also different forms of
psychological anomalies that can evolve
even in the best of people like yourself.

You need to drop this entire "Worthington" issue, because it's not
going to do you any good and you really do
seem to be (practically)the only person on earth that
doubts the outcome of the trial.

And if Christa had soooo many enemies,
then why are you her friend?

Your just out to make a buck, Crusader.

Admit it for decency's sake.
11/08/09 @ 1:54 am
crusader [Member] writes:
Buzz, dog, you are a$$holes...it's 1:53...time to hang up the old seahag.

We all know there are only a few posters, who change their names around just to give themselves their own rise.

Go made bread.

11/08/09 @ 2:00 am
margebunny21 [Member] writes:
Cru posted:
"Police have too much power, some abuse it."

Out of 50 states in America, this gal
picks Massachusetts to start an
anti-cop "crusade".

And here's what you said to someone last week:
"You think you're as smart as me?"

Bravo!....stick with the school kid....it might help.
11/08/09 @ 2:13 am
crusader [Member] writes:
Psychological abnormalities exist in abundance on that strip of sand. You should look into AA meetings dawg, they might help, then again, you might be another hopeless case in search of someone to get your frustrations out on.

There have been plenty of good people who have been ruined all because of this case. You think I'm the only one who still talks about it? Ha. Keep telling the readers what you want them to read.

Many know, but they fear the police and so they don't speak up. I do believe that one day this case will be solved, but it may take as long as the lady in the dunes. They will wait until everyone is retired and collecting fat pensions.

11/08/09 @ 2:22 am
crusader [Member] writes:
"And if Christa had soooo many enemies,
then why are you her friend"?

She didn't have so many enemies. That is what those with self serving interests want the public to believe, because the investigative probe will cease to continue.

I am her friend because every woman should stand and fight against this type of crime. This was not a rape, or a burglary committed by her trash collector. This was something much more, premeditated, in my opinion, by those who are "untouchable", in our society. And it just gets swept under the corrupted rug. It's a complete disgrace is what it is--and no one really gives a damn about it anymore. Everyone is out to save their own sorry ass, because it's become the American way..."scrape them off, save yourself". Strange thing about bad deeds, they always seem to surface and usually people can't always live with what they have done to another human being. Maybe that's when it will come out.
11/08/09 @ 2:35 am
margebunny21 [Member] writes:
Cru wrote-(this is good)-
Many know, but they fear the police and so they don't speak up. I do believe that one day this case will be solved, but it may take as long as the lady in the dunes."

You have things SO TOTALLY BACKWARD!!

Try this:
1. The Worthington case has been solved.
2. "Lady inthe dunes" case-- unsolved.
3. If uncertain, go to step #1 and proceed from there.

Cru (another wonder)-
"Keep telling the readers what you want them to read."

Well gee, I don't think there'd be much
point in making "comments" if we did'nt
have THAT in mind, right Crusader?

BTW- you posted at 12:16 a.m.:
"You have been the one to defame Christa on this blog. Why would you do that,"

AFTER you posted this at 9:30 p.m.:
"She was probably no different from half the people in that region--hypocrites."

Now who's the "hypocrite", Dearie?

11/08/09 @ 2:41 am
crusader [Member] writes:
psychological abberation?

Well, isn't that interesting. Half of the people who have protested against the outcome of this case have also been labeled in a similar way.

You think you are so clever. Well sorry to burst your bubble of being the self proclaimed highly esteemed quack, but you are the one with the major deficiency in brain normalities.

It's always the usual stand-by. When you can't discount someone, just label them as a loon. It's sure to work every time. NOT THIS TIME. Try harder, you're slipping. The old routine is no longer working for you. Maybe stick to those book clubs you are so fond of, or how about another helpless deadbeat on the island that has wronged you somehow. Have you got a spare somewhere, you can taunt and belittle? All that charm schooling has done what for you, exactly? Buy a new bra, one that fits next time.
11/08/09 @ 2:57 am
margebunny21 [Member] writes:
Cru (she j u st c a n 't s t o p) wries:

"psychological abberation?"

Do pardon the Harvard-esque jargon, if you will.
it's just my polite way of telling you
that I think you're "nuts", dearie..

Cru writes:
"Half of the people who have protested against the outcome of this case have also been labeled in a similar way."

The other half did'nt require "labeling"
because they were probably
nuts to begin with!

Cru (her mind is showing!) writes:
"You think you are so clever."

A veiled compliment!
Why thank you, Dearie!
I do hope ther are'nt
any "meds kicking in".

Cru (music should be played to this) wrote:
"Strange thing about bad deeds, they always seem to surface and usually people can't always live with what they have done to another human being. Maybe that's when it will come out."

You watch too much television Crusader,
and it was'nt necessarily that statement that makes me post this..
11/08/09 @ 2:59 am
crusader [Member] writes:
Is readership at an all time low this week or sponsorship? Find a good bra size yet?

Christa was a healthy, vibrant woman who had many friends OFF CAPE, IN NEW YORK and OVERSEAS. She made the biggest mistake of her life ending in a deadbeat town of Truro, Massachusetts surrounded by a bunch of finger pointing puritan hypocrites. Probably, very much like you. You know the type--"WE can do it, but not YOU"! "You get labeled a whore, slut, pariah, but NOT US"! We are saintly, purest of grade, top grade, just because, we have the power, the money, the 300+ years of being whaler's! OH BOY!! How Glorious!

"You have been the one to defame Christa on this blog. Why would you do that,"...are you jealous of her too? Wow, must be that water down there that's got you all so whacked out.

"She was probably no different from half the people in that region--YES, SHE WAS LIVING HER LIFE AS SHE WANTED...THEY ARE THE hypocrites.", DEFINITION=if I must spell it out since you continue misconstruing every word I write! Again, "do as I say, not as I do" syndrome!

Now who's the "hypocrite", Dearie?-YOU!
11/08/09 @ 3:05 am
crusader [Member] writes:
Guess the sponsors are jumping ship too!

Oh, well, you know what they say..."you should have done better, it's all on you, toughen up old girl, think your high priced charm school didn't complete the job, I see the white trash trailer talk shining through!"

I hear dawg's got a high paying job for you at the clam shack. Maybe you can do that on the side. Be sure to wear that hair net, you don't want to be dropping lice into those fries!
11/08/09 @ 3:15 am
margebunny21 [Member] writes:
Cru posted:
"Find a good bra size yet?"

I can think of 2 reasons to ignore this.

Cru posted:
"You have been the one to defame Christa on this blog. Why would you do that"

You posted that in reference to me, after
you labeled Christa Worthing a "hypocrite" a few hours earlier!

It's all there in black + white
and anybody can see it!
What's going on here?

Cru (in sheer desparation) posts:
"Now who's the "hypocrite", Dearie?-YOU!"

Crusader, this posting proves 3 things:

1. Nothing
2. Nothing
3. See #1 and repeat, if uncertain.

Now let's see, how shall I diagnose thee,
let me count the ways...

Paranoid Schizophrenic?
Paranoid Moderate?
Bipolar?

Wait a minute-- Do you have any uncommon urges
to embraced rusty mechanical devices
or run backwards on mossy surfaces?

Oh, we'll just go with "bi-polar".
It seems to cover everything, anyways...
11/08/09 @ 3:45 am
margebunny21 [Member] writes:
Cru's analysis of the people of Truro:
"You know the type--"WE can do it, but not YOU"! "You get labeled a whore, slut, pariah, but NOT US"!! OH BOY!! How Glorious!"

Had it ever occured to you that Christa may have invited
herself somewhere she was not necessarily welcome?
People can be naive, you know...

Just because the REMAX sign and the law
tell you it's o.k. to move somewhere
does'nt mean you're really welcome.

And then when someone with a disagreeable
personality steps into the picture
(from N.Y.C.? you gotta be kidding!)
anything can result.

And you're probably right!
Everybody was so sick of the trial
they wanted the damn thing to get over
with (like Micheal Jackson) and who
cares who gets screwed!

The can of worms you want to open is
happening everyday in this world.

You can try to fight it
but there'll just be another and another and...
11/08/09 @ 3:54 am
crusader [Member] writes:
LOL..just keep it going, I'm sure your tiny Cape Cod Today crew is loving every minute of it. Time to contact the editor and get some things sorted out about slandering those with mental disorders-sounds like you are the one who needs the MEDICATIONS! You've been posting just as long! Who is the freak!

A charm school business woman, what would your father-in-law have to say about that?


11/08/09 @ 4:01 am
margebunny21 [Member] writes:
I've kept her up till 4:30 so far.
Cru posted:
"You've been posting just as long! Who is the freak!"

Did it ever occur to you that I might
be an incurable insomniac, Dear?

And I see nothing "freaky"
about my postings....

Hmmmm let's see...where else do you need help--
give me a minute whilst I decipher
some of your postings here...
11/08/09 @ 4:19 am
margebunny21 [Member] writes:
Cru posted:
LOL..just keep it going, I'm sure your tiny Cape Cod Today crew is loving every minute of it."

Here's the personalities
you've accused me of being so far:

1. Peter Manso
2. Sea-Hag
3, Dawg, who I believe is poster "Capedoggie"
4. CC Today staff.
5. Charm-school business woman? Who the hell is that?
6 "Granny" whoever that is...maybe it's a variant of "sea-hag".

It is HIGHLY doubtful you could imagine such a
variety of personalities unless you were
affected by some type of multiple-personality disorder.

Combine this with paranoiac-centered delusional tendencies and it's not difficult to see why you keep
"at it" the way you have been. There's only one deduction available for severity of this nature.

At this point, I must conclude that it is my
considered opinion that you have
"bats in the belfry", Dearie...

Thorazine works best, but you won't be allowed to drive...
11/08/09 @ 5:47 am
bittersweet [Member] writes:
WOW! The return of cw2 and friends.Crusader, you are right! But just a little info for you re-tread..."you really do seem to be (practically)the only person on earth that doubts the outcome of the trial."
That's where you're wrong. Laughably so. In fact, I would say that practically everyone doubts that outcome. It's an affront to common sense.
Anyway,those old feelings are all still there.. just below the surface. I wouldn't say it's a powder-keg. More like a slow burn. As the words of the song says, "Nothing is forgotten. Only left behind." (Robbie Robertson)
Also..we all know the kind of mind games you all play by now...the past 9 years have taught us well. In other words...it doesn't work! Cause you know what? Another song keeps popping into my head, so I'll let Neil Young say it for me:

"the moral of this story
is try not to get too old
the more time you spend on earth
the more you see unfold

and as an afterthought
this must too be told
some people have taken pure bullshit
and turned it into gold"

---Says it all, doesn't it?
11/08/09 @ 6:58 am
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Here's a perfect example...is this true?
So the Healthcare bill passed! But-
"Kucinich is pushing for inclusion of an amendment that would allow individual states to implement single-payer health care without being sued by insurance companies."

States can be SUED by insurance companies if they decide to offer single-payer??
Wouldn't you know it. All this time squawking about tort-reform, and meanwhile, the insurance co's have the law at their command!!

Kucinich votes against the bill.
But Howard Dean says it will benefit so many Americans.
I sincerely hope so...keep the wolves at bay.
And congrats to the dems!
11/08/09 @ 7:22 am
possee [Member] writes:
Kennedy : “Patients should have the right to hold their [insurance company] accountable in court when its negligence causes the injury or death of a patient. … No other industry in America enjoys immunity from accountability for its actions, and the insurance industry does not deserve it either.”

Harry Reid..
"Today, even an HMO involved directly in dictating, denying, or delaying care for a patient can use a loophole in what we call ERISA to avoid any responsibility for the consequences of its actions,” “The American people simply do not support that.”

Speaker Nancy Pelosi.. Of course they’ve been immoral all along in how they have treated people that they insure …. They are the villains,”
“It’s almost immoral what [the insurance companies] are doing,”


Page 140 of the House bill reads: “Nothing in paragraphs (1) or (2) shall be construed as affecting the application of section 514 of the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974.”

These are exact quotes regarding ERISA ,all the champions of National Health Care, all the leading proponents..so what gives?
11/08/09 @ 8:04 am
karent2 [Member] writes:
Is it margebunny or the energizer bunny? Good sparring but what I have realized bunny is that you never argue with a moron. They will bring you down to their level and win with their years of experience.
11/08/09 @ 8:10 am
Buzz [Member] writes:
Wow.... an all niter... I'm impressed. Let's see what kind of mood my favorite blogger is in today!
11/08/09 @ 8:11 am
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Well, if anything, maybe now all the Shmear-meisters can stop yelling "socialist", " moon-bat liberal"...it's still in you face corporatism!
It seems the best you can still hope for here in America is not to get screwed over too badly. Because with the Repubs, you have only corporate interests at the forefront...the dems give you crumbs at least. Although I'm hoping for better...Dean is very positive about it, and I trust his judgement.
Let's SEE what happens when it gets implemented...whenever that will be.
And let's deal in reality, not shmearality.
Here's a long and complicated explanation of some of these shmears that are on-going:
google; Linda BergtholdHealth policy consultant
Posted: November 7, 2009 02:22 PM
"Betsy McCaughey Is Wrong About Health Reform -- Again!"




11/08/09 @ 8:20 am
bittersweet [Member] writes:
"there is so much more in this bill that will help Americans get and keep affordable health insurance. There are subsidies for folks who cannot pay the full amount; there are prohibitions on those pesky lifetime maximums that run out just when you are the sickest; and there is preventive care to help you avoid being sick."--Fingers Crossed!

"the government does not dictate treatment decisions. This is a flat out lie."--Stop the Shmearality!!






11/08/09 @ 8:30 am
Peter Walker [Member] writes:
"Dean is very positive about it, and I trust his judgment."

"eeeeeeeeeeeeeyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah"
11/08/09 @ 9:06 am
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Loved the Dean Scream!!
Loved him.
Then the media got a hold of him and it was all over.
You know, I knew a girl from Sweden once. She said American TV treats Americans like children. well, she was talking about commercials, but I think it applies to all of it.
Except when they use sex to sell something. Which they do on a regular basis.
So how do you explain that one? Don't let Howard Stern be on the air, but have ads for viagra..."so we can 'enjoy' the moment" *wink* *wink*.
"mommy, what does enjoy mean, and why is that daddy smiling?"
Bikini babes all over--bikini volleyball--figure-skating. Yet a fart joke is so over the top it will destroy your kid for life.
I mean, what kid wouldn't laugh at Mr. Methane farting the national anthem?
Better than cheapening sex as a means to sell a product.
Well, where did that come from??
Anyway, I knew a lot of people who put the Dean Scream on the opening page of their computers. What a way to get started!
11/08/09 @ 9:08 am
possee [Member] writes:
Affordable health insurance?
(I pay half that now with private insurance!)***

When is this..2016?

the table shows the approximate national average for the reference plan—about $5,300 for single policies and about $15,000*** for family policies in 2016.

Congressional Budget Office
Director’s Blog.

http://cboblog.cbo.gov/?p=405
11/08/09 @ 9:17 am
capedoggie [Member] writes:
I guess the moral of this story is to keep the ol' blowser up all night and have a good,good morning.

Man, she never quits.
11/08/09 @ 10:46 am
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Possee,

Allow me to reproduce 2 of your comments from previous posts:

1st: "Buried in the thousands of pages of the health care bill drafted by Democrats in the House and Senate is a provision to protect insurance companies from legal accountability for benefit decisions that cause injury or death to patients".

That is, you say that the House Bill creates a new protection from liability.

2nd: Page 140 of the House bill reads: “Nothing in paragraphs (1) or (2) shall be construed as affecting the application of section 514 of the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974.”

That is, that the health care law leaves an existing bill (ERISA) unchanged.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that when a new bill leaves an existing law unchanged it is not creating a new law. Nope, it's maintaining the status quo. The House bill does not create a new corporate protection.

Can you refute that logic? If so please do so that I can learn something. If not, admit it.
11/08/09 @ 6:06 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Well, here's what I learned today-
There's a "secret" right-wing group out there called the Council for National Policy.
"Mark Crispin Miller states that the CNP is a "highly secretive... theocratic organization -- what they want is basically religious rule" (A Patriot Act). Barry W. Lynn, the executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, told the New York Times about the CNP meeting ahead of the 2004 Republican National Convention, "The real crux of this is that these are the genuine leaders of the Republican Party, but they certainly aren't going to be visible on television next week."
Well, Sarah Palin is a member, as is Dick Armey. May explain their coming together as a team to oust the moderate Republican in New York.
Anyway,other members are McCain and BOTH his pastors! Hagee and Parsley.
Also Pat Buchanan Dick Cheney Jack Abramoff Erik Prince and Tom Delay.
As a person who follows their intuition and feelings very much, this is leading to a society just like Margaret Atwood envisioned in A Handmaid's Tale.
It does not bode well for women.
Beware
11/08/09 @ 6:24 pm
j. madden [Member] writes:
bitter: Good reference. Link to an analysis of M. Atwood's book A Handmaid's Tale.
11/08/09 @ 6:26 pm
j. madden [Member] writes:
and the link: http://www.novelguide.com/TheHandmaid'sTale/themeanalysis.html
11/08/09 @ 6:53 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Thank you J. madden!
11/08/09 @ 6:58 pm
Ana Paulina [Member] writes:
Thank you as well....
11/08/09 @ 7:00 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Reading the analysis:
"A leading campaigner for the conservative view of a woman's role was Phyllis Schlafly, who is believed to be at least in part the model for Serena Joy in the novel."

Phyllis Schafly is a member of CNP.
11/08/09 @ 7:06 pm
Peter Walker [Member] writes:
Not much of a "secret",

Google:Results 1 - 10 of about 61,300,000 for Council for National Policy.
11/08/09 @ 7:09 pm
Ana Paulina [Member] writes:
The Yellow Wall-Paper by Charlotte Perkins Gilman is an interesting read.
11/08/09 @ 7:19 pm
Peter Walker [Member] writes:
Her you go bitter, a nice left wing website with all the info on the CNP and it's extended network that you will ever need.

Mapping the connections is actually pretty entertaining.

http://www.nndb.com/org/700/000051547/
11/08/09 @ 8:03 pm
margebunny21 [Member] writes:
"DEMON ILLUMINATI subvert human intelligence through subliminal animation while U.S. Naval Intelligence watches closely".

Oh, Heavens, you can see satan EVERYWHERE in this one:

http://www.hasbro.com/mylittlepony/en_US/
11/09/09 @ 9:11 am
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
There's a great editorial in the Cape Cod Times today that points out the fundamental inconsistency of GOP opposition to the Public Option:

1. It represents an expansion of government and thus is doomed to be wasteful and inefficient.

2. Because it has lower costs/premiums, private insurers won't be able to compete with it. Private insurers will go out of business.

Hmmm... how do those 2 positions fit together? If the Public Option will be so inefficient, how the heck will it have lower costs and premiums? Obviously, that makes no sense. Of course, saying non-sensitical things to support its "anti-government at any cost" philosophy is no problem for the GOP.

And I really love it when the GOP bemoans the fact that private insurers won't be able to compete. I guess that, in order to guarantee those insurers profit margins and bonuses for its executives, the rest of us must pay higher premiums, huh?

Yet again the GOP shows itself to be nothing but anti-government no matter what, anti-Obama and pro-big business.

A disgraceful party.
11/09/09 @ 9:28 am
possee [Member] writes:
The fundamental consistency of DNC support for the Public Option:

1. It represents an expansion of government and thus is to be proactive and efficient.

2. Because it has lower costs/premiums, private insurers won't be able to compete with it. Private insurers will go out of business.

Hmmm... how do those 2 positions fit together? If the Public Option will be so efficient, how the heck will it have lower costs and premiums? Obviously, that makes no sense. Of course, saying non-sensitical things to support its "big-government at any cost" philosophy is no problem for the DNC.

And I really love it when the DNC loves the fact that private insurers won't be able to compete. I guess that, in order to guarantee those bureaucrats profit margins and bonuses for its executives, the rest of us must pay higher taxes, huh?

Yet again the DNC shows itself to be nothing but BIG-government no matter what, pro-Obama and anti-big business.

A disgraceful party.
11/09/09 @ 9:33 am
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Possee,

Please name a government health insurance system that is inefficient. And please name one whose costs are higher than private insurance?

Please, name one.

Fact is, Possee, that all experience with government health insurance in the industrialized world shows that government delivers cheaper health care than does private insurance. Medicare does that right here and its the best evidence. England, France, Germany, Switzerland, Japan, Hong Kong, and on and on do it elsewhere.

I really wish you could support your position that the Public Option will be costly with an iota of evidence.

Can you? Until you can, you're not worth listening to.

Can't wait for your response which will be, as always, devoid of backup.
11/09/09 @ 9:35 am
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Possee,

Now that you're back online, I'd like to hear a response from you on my post that showed the inconsistency of 2 or your posts:

#1: The Health Care Bill creates a new liability protection for insurers

#2: What the bill actually says is that ERISA won't change, that is, status quo.

No new protection there.
11/09/09 @ 9:42 am
bittersweet [Member] writes:
DNC Anti big business???
Clinton put NAFTA through.Hello!! That was like Christmas for Big Business. Big polluters. Big union-busters.
The mandatory insurance sign-up is a give-away to Insurance industry.
Pharma got a sweet deal.
They're just trying to get the little people a little something squeezed out of the monied greed-mongers who you love so much.
And by god, it's like pulling teeth!

11/09/09 @ 9:59 am
possee [Member] writes:
11/08/09 @ 7:22 am

possee[Member] writes:
Kennedy :“Patients should have the right to hold their [insurance company] accountable in court when its negligence causes the injury or death of a patient.No other industry in America enjoys immunity from accountability for its actions,and the insurance industry does not deserve it either.
Harry Reid.
"Today, even an HMO involved directly in dictating, denying, or delaying care for a patient can use a loophole in what we call ERISA to avoid any responsibility for the consequences of its actions,” “The American people simply do not support that.”
Speaker Nancy Pelosi.. Of course they’ve been immoral all along in how they have treated people that they insure …. They are the villains,”

Page 140 of the House bill reads: “Nothing in paragraphs (1) or (2) shall be construed as affecting the application of section 514 of the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974.”
These are exact quotes regarding ERISA , by all the champions of National HealthcaRE.
Their quotes are hypocritical, as always.

possee
11/09/09 @ 10:02 am
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Bitter,

Do you read the New York Times? Paul Krugman has a good editorial today that describes how the GOP has been hijacked by people like Possee who basically want to do nothing other than tear the system down.

He says reasonable people in the GOP were able to keep a lid on this faction until last year when Obama was elected and the GOP got slaughtered again in Congress. Now Rush, Hannity, Palin et. al. and their ability to leverage conservative anger have come to dominate the party.

Possee is a great example: He'll never come up with a rational answer to my question: "Where has government health insurance cost more than private insurance? " because that would require him to consider fact and experience. All he wants to do is to rant, rave and spew bile.

Simply put, the faction of the GOP that has come to dominate is not interested in improving the country. By definition, that requires government activity and that's - again by definition - not acceptable.

So, what's the answer? Sit out our hands, yell and scream, and tear it all down!

Not very constructive, huh?
11/09/09 @ 10:05 am
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Possee,

One problem: Exact quotes that do not say what you say they do are useless.

“Nothing in paragraphs (1) or (2) shall be construed as affecting the application of section 514 of the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974.”

Please tell me how this statement from me is wrong:

"Page 140 says ERISA is unaffected, that is, it maintains the status quo. There is no new protection from liability there".

Come on - no more direct quotes. Tell me how my statement is wrong.
11/09/09 @ 10:10 am
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Actually dk, they do have a method to their madness.
Meister Karl Rove was the man behind it, I guess.
He put out the word: Say NO say NO say NO....obstruct ANYTHING the dems want done.
Then, when the 2010 elections come up, they release their big solution to Obama's mess.
They, who have been the ruination of anything good, will then be perceived as the hero's who will save us form the new Karl Marx.

Only it won't work. It's going to turn on them and they won't be elected DOG catcher.
And that is what they deserve.
11/09/09 @ 10:15 am
bittersweet [Member] writes:
You could see it on the floor yesterday.
SOMEONE got the talking points out, and they all repeated them verbatim.

Kill patients, More taxes, PoorPoor Seniors, PoorPoor children, Socialism, Marxism, Gvt. take-over, Not our country...it's just like someone in the past said...tell a lie long enough and repeat it over and over and over..eventually it sticks in the mind.
And that certain someone also said- the bigger the lie the better!
11/09/09 @ 10:47 am
Buzz [Member] writes:
dk,

The fact is that, in recent years, Medicare administrative costs per beneficiary have substantially exceeded those costs for the private sector, this despite the fact that, as critics note, private insurance is subject to many expenses not incurred by Medicare. Contrary to the claims of public plan advocates, moving millions of Americans from private insurance to a Medicare-like program will result in program administrative costs that are higher per person and higher, not lower, for the nation as a whole.

Robert A. Book, Ph.D
11/09/09 @ 10:48 am
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Bitter,

Re: a method to the GOP's madness:

Agreed as long as we limit the discussion to politics. Obviously, sound bite lies and distortions that scare the pants off of voters is the best electoral approach.

And don't get me wrong: The Democrats do the same thing. For example, during the 2nd Bush term the Dems hammered similarly on Bush and not always honestly (although by then they had PLENTY to complain about including Iraq and a budget that had gone from the Black to the most Red ink in history).

But the difference is "matter of degree". I like to use Sarah Palin as an example here: If some liberal said the liberal equivalent of "death panels" it would not get any traction. Not so on the Right: Any statement, any strategy regardless of how vile is fair game on the Right.

Heck, the pure fact that someone as nuts as Palin is a superstar in the GOP says it all.

The Dems aren't pure but - considering matter of degree - the GOP is MUCH worse and the worst that I've ever seen.
11/09/09 @ 10:52 am
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Oh Buzz, you'll have to source that claim very specifically. Please provide a link or some scholarly study.

We've read over and over that overhead costs in Medicare are in the 3 - 4% range and that private insurance is between 20% and 30%.

Of course, those private numbers correctly include profit.

Anyway, I'd love to see a source from Dr. Book.

I'd also like you thoughts on the national health care systems of the industrialized countries whose per capita costs are MUCH lower than ours.
11/09/09 @ 10:53 am
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Come on possee,

You've got an opportunity to show us your knowledge of the health insurance debate by showing how my statement on the House Bill vis-a-vis ERISA is wrong.

Let's hear it!
11/09/09 @ 11:04 am
possee [Member] writes:
By allowing ERISA to remain intact,Pelosi, Reid, have reversed their prior stances on insurance companies.
There is no new protection, correct.
Now, let's see what the senate votes on, if at all.
By the way, I do say no!! to more government,no apologies, and proud of it!
And, by the way, you foot soldiers of the left constantly argue that any disagreement to the left, is automatically a pundit of the GOP.

But then again, what more could one expect.
As your leader Richard implied to me, can you read?
My prior comments always disdain the GOP.
They are equally culpable for the mess we're in..agreed.
But not culpable for the disaster created in 2009.
Bush & co started big government bailouts. OB continued a 1000 fold.
I'll give you folks that credit.

You can defend your absurd big government..afterall you "inherited" it.
Might as well voted for Bush.
Blackwater, Halliburton,KBR, are all intact, and receiving new contracts. Afghanistan/Pakistan war is escalating, Chavez is posturing for war.

Enjoying the hope and change still?

possee
11/09/09 @ 11:08 am
possee [Member] writes:
buzz
When you point out the facts to these elite nobel laureates as discussion, you are accused of being an expert, when they are the only experts in everything.

That's why they love government.

possee
11/09/09 @ 11:17 am
possee [Member] writes:
Radical imam praises alleged Fort Hood shooter
By PAMELA HESS, Associated Press Writer Pamela Hess – 34 mins ago.

Anwar said the only way a Muslim can justify serving in the U.S. military is if he intends to "follow in the footsteps of men like Nidal."

Let's continue reaching out..

or is it 'SHOUT OUT"?



possee
11/09/09 @ 11:19 am
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
possee,

OK we agree on the ERISA thing. Admitting that you were wrong on that didn't kill you. It happens.

You are not talking to a typical leftie here. I was a devout Reaganite and in the GOP for about 25 years. Like you, I am very suspicious of big government.

But I think that you take your hate of government too far. Let's face it, our health care system MUST be reformed. And how will that be done without government action? It won't. So, this is an example of the world being imperfect:

You and I distrust government to do things right but only it can lead health care reform.

So what should a reasonable person do given that? Just yell and scream and help paralyze government action on health care reform? No: We should watch government's actions on health care, acknowledge what's good and criticize what's bad.

11/09/09 @ 11:32 am
r-five [Member] writes:
dkfalmouth wrote (in part)

"Obviously, sound bite lies and distortions that scare the pants off of voters is the best electoral approach.

And don't get me wrong: The Democrats do the same thing."

[...]

"But the difference is "matter of degree". I like to use Sarah Palin as an example here: If some liberal said the liberal equivalent of "death panels" it would not get any traction. Not so on the Right: Any statement, any strategy regardless of how vile is fair game on the Right."

R5
"The Left" (meaning the Democrats) have been guilty of comparable howlers as "the Right" (meaning the GOP.

In response, The People clearly need to adopt tactics designed to scare the pants off the leadership of both parties...

And not just with respect with regard to the healthcare reform bill, but also across a broad-spectrum of policies.

In recent decades, the leadership of both parties has voided the trust of the American People, and, as a consequence, the People find themselves obliged to adopt radical approaches in the interests of National salvation.

R5
11/09/09 @ 11:56 am
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
r5,

I'd be interested to hear an example of a lie from the Left as outrageous as "Death Panels" which, by the way, Palin mentioned again over the weekend.

And who on the Left can you say, with a straight face, is as crazy as Palin?

Once you get done with that, can you name pundits on the Left who as outrageous as Limbaugh and Beck?

I was in the GOP for years. I know from long experience that the GOP leaders of old - Reagan, Gingrich - while tough political players and far from lily white when it came to truth telling were FAR short of today's demagogues. That's why I left the party: We lost the tough but sane conservatives and were left with nothing but the crazies like Palin.
11/09/09 @ 12:33 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
"And who on the Left can you say, with a straight face, is as crazy as Palin?"

Let's start with Pelosi.
11/09/09 @ 12:55 pm
possee [Member] writes:
Pelosi is crazy like a fox.

I love my country and our system of government.period.

The residents in Capitol Hill have destroyed our nation, relegated the constitution to a worthless piece of paper, and cowtowed to special interests of all persuasions for the last century, all to their self rewards and total false promises of helping the taxpayers.

Our forefathers granted them medicare, medicaid, social security and they've raided the coffers of all those programs, to supplement sweet deals and reward corporate and low life welfare for generations.
Our grandparents and parents fought and gave their lives for this country while the politicians screwed them for a homecoming reward..

Never being a Repub nor registered Dem, I have always looked to the voting records and actions, not words.

I found the last 40 years void of any one worth voting for..period.




and like mav

..it's not the system, it's the residents .in Capitol Hill..I have a problem with.

possee
11/09/09 @ 1:19 pm
John [Member] writes:
Would the gentleman mind telling us how much he made on the case, win or lose?
11/09/09 @ 1:37 pm
r-five [Member] writes:
dkfalmouth:
I'd be interested to hear an example of a lie from the Left as outrageous as "Death Panels" which, by the way, Palin mentioned again over the weekend.

R5:
"I did not have sex with that woman"

dkfalmouth:
And who on the Left can you say, with a straight face, is as crazy as Palin?

R5
Cynthia McKinney.

dkfalmouth
Once you get done with that, can you name pundits on the Left who [are] as outrageous as Limbaugh and Beck?

R5
Sure--but I won't.

Pundits are not public servants and my point is that the present leadership of both parties has repeatedly voided the trust of the People for decades.

The fact that the Left is distraught because it has lost its longstanding monopoly on broadcast media to the People is beside the point, and that anti-Leftist anti-government broadcast pundits are enjoying enormous popularity these days is not my problem.

R5
11/09/09 @ 1:59 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
"Speaker Nancy Pelosi defied policy logic and public opinion late Saturday night, ramming through the House a nearly 2,000-page health-care leviathan that counts as the biggest expansion of the federal government since the New Deal. As President Obama likes to say, this was a "teachable moment" about our current government."

Let's see how it does in the senate. As passed in the House it will go nowhere.
11/09/09 @ 2:02 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
possee..I sincerely see your description of Congress in the last administration...I don't see it now.
There are a lot of good people there..but that last was a cabal from HELL. Does that make me a marxist/communist/socialist/nazi/america-hating/traitor?

And how about this: Erik Prince "views himself as a Christian crusader tasked with eliminating Muslims and the Islamic faith from the globe"

What should the countries he operates in do?

And Cynthia McKinney?? My girl!!
She stood on the floor of the House and told Cheney and company;"I know all about M K Ultra."
Oh yes! I was applauding in my living room.
Cause we know cheney is an expert in mkultra, as is daddy bush and many of those other old crows who were present that day.
She has guts...real guts. Just like Senator Wellstone did.

And *brainfreeze*....Since when are global business conglomerates "The People"?

They represent some people, not The People. The People are being stabbed in the back by the hate-radio-heads.

Your comparisons are lame r-5. Not even close on the slime-omitor scale.


11/09/09 @ 2:03 pm
possee [Member] writes:
r-5

Kudos to your recent comment..excellent!


Here is one pundit, a commentator from the print media who said it best..

Call this horror by its name: Islamist terror

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/call_this_horror_by_its_name_islamist_HT78Wt6NkWoCGq5HIOwlII#ixzz0WOG9yT7Y

Ralph Peters served for over two decades in the U.S. Army, as an enlisted man and officer, before retiring in 1998 to write and speak freely.

possee
11/09/09 @ 2:07 pm
possee [Member] writes:
maverick

What if the GOP was in power, passed a bill with huge fines, forced payments, potential jail sentences, and no choice in the matter?
The left would be screaming for impeachment, as would I.

possee
11/09/09 @ 2:19 pm
Buzz [Member] writes:
possee,

Come on now...bitter would disagree. You've had your share of freedom, capitalism... bushie boy is gone, the shoe is on the other foot... get use to it.
11/09/09 @ 2:40 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
No, I disagree because of this:

Patriot Act!
Torture!
Lying US to war!
Outing a CIA agent!

Where were you then????

And if you so desire, you can google Bugliosi or Kucinich and read the legaleeze all about it.
Impeachment was warranted last time around, and where the F were you?
I'll tell you where...telling ME (and those like me) to shut up!
Telling ME I was "aiding and abetting the enemy"!
Telling me if I don't like it, I can leave. Questioning my patriotism all the time.

Now you all come around with your little complaints and whining about your money---someone's gonna take from you.....
It's Petty in the face of what happened before!!
And you all took the side of the those rotten bastards, and really vilified anyone who said otherwise.
You get no sympathy or support from me...unless you want to join the 9//1 Truth movement.

Get to the root, don't hack at the branches.
11/09/09 @ 2:55 pm
possee [Member] writes:
huh?

Speaking of roots,Acorns are the beginning stages of the root system.
Start hacking the branches one by one and, sooner or later, the tree will die.

Gotta start sharpening that blade for a better cut.



possee
11/09/09 @ 3:25 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Weak comebacks r-5,

Cynthia McKinney? I had to look her up to see who she was. I'll take your word for the fact that she's a liberal loon. Perhaps I should have added the word "significant" to my challenge. Palin, who is absolutely loony tunes and is a superstar of the Right which hangs on her every word. Sorry, Cynthia McKinney is a very weak comeback.

Nancy Pelosi as whacko as Palin? Again, come on. I'm not going to defend Pelosi - I don't like her either. But she hardly compares to the craziest politician (Palin) that we've seen in a generation.

You dodged my question about the Pundits. Forget my supposed hate of losing a liberal monopoly on the air. Who is as wild and destructive on the left as Beck on the right?
11/09/09 @ 3:26 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Buzz,

Can you provide a reference for that Phd. who says that Medicare is less efficient than private health insurance?
11/09/09 @ 3:29 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Jail terms Maverick? Boy, you've gotta work REAL hard to throw that one in.

Yes, if one doesn't pay one's taxes for years upon years it's theoretically possible that one could go to jail. But nobody's gonna go to jail for not paying the health care tax penalty.

Fines and late fees? Probably. Jail terms? Only in the minds of you rabid reform opponents. Wow - that one is out there Maverick.
11/09/09 @ 3:44 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
dk...please pay attention. Where or when did I mention jail terms?
11/09/09 @ 3:51 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Maverick,

Sorry, that should have gone to Possee.
11/09/09 @ 4:21 pm
r-five [Member] writes:
dkfalmouth:
Weak comebacks r-5,
R5:
I notice that you've dropped "The Left cannot tell a lie" routine
dkfalmouth:
Cynthia McKinney? I had to look her up to see who she was. I'll take your word for the fact that she's a liberal loon.
R5
Very wise of you...
dkfalmouth:
Perhaps I should have added the word "significant" to my challenge.
R5
I mistakenly thought you only wanted the most certifiable of the lot--there's a lot of looney tunes leftists who are more prominent but not quite as clearly & consistently whacked. In any case, my point here is NOT that Dem crackpots are more numerous & certifiable than GOP crackpots. The point is that both parties have voided the trust of the People thru lies & insanity & that consequently the State cannot be trusted to serve the People.
dkfalmouth:
You dodged my question about the Pundits...
R5
Yep. You want me to compare football players with sportscasters
dkfalmouth:
...Who is as wild & destructive on the left as Beck on the right?
R5
Ok, ok, I stopped beating my wife never.
11/09/09 @ 4:26 pm
possee [Member] writes:
H.R. 3962 provides that an individual (or a husband and wife in the case of a joint return) who does not, at any time during the taxable year, maintain acceptable health insurance coverage for himself or herself and each of his or her qualifying children is subject to an additional tax.

the government determines that the taxpayer’s unpaid tax liability results from willful behavior, the following penalties could apply.

Criminal penalties

Prosecution is authorized under the Code for a variety of offenses. Depending on the level of the noncompliance, the following penalties could apply to an individual:

• Section 7203 – misdemeanor willful failure to pay is punishable by a fine of up to $25,000 and/or imprisonment of up to one year.

• Section 7201 – felony willful evasion is punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment of up to five years.”
11/09/09 @ 4:29 pm
Buzz [Member] writes:
dk....aka "all knowing",

Then why don't you tell us why the following provisions are in the bill:

• Section 7203 – misdemeanor willful failure to pay is punishable by a fine of up to $25,000 and/or imprisonment of up to one year.
• Section 7201 – felony willful evasion is punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment of up to five years.”

And please, I've been "out of school" for many years, so stop asking me to provide references... I gave you the name and the quote, you have google... look it up yourself.
11/09/09 @ 4:30 pm
Buzz [Member] writes:
sorry possee, you beat me to it.
11/09/09 @ 4:36 pm
possee [Member] writes:
According to the Congressional Budget Office the lowest cost family non-group plan under the Speaker’s bill would cost $15,000 in 2016.

I only pay less than half that now.

Do not accept the state healthcare.
Pay the fine.
Don't pay the fine..go to jail.
Sounds like Bamopoly to me.

Where do I get a pass?
Vote for pelosi?

Rather go to jail.

possee
11/09/09 @ 4:41 pm
r-five [Member] writes:
Better company in jail...

R5
11/09/09 @ 4:54 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
possee, Buzz...even if I live to 2016 I don't have $15,000 to spend on health care. I am barely getting by.

Will I have to go before a death panel?

Will have to go to jail?

Will I get subsidized and have to stand in line with bitter?

I prefer jail or the death panel.
11/09/09 @ 4:59 pm
r-five [Member] writes:
"End-of-Life-Counselling" is likely to be as least as tiresome as Bitter... wheras jail-time can be most useful and instructive.

I see it now: "A Letter From Barnstable Jail"...
11/09/09 @ 5:07 pm
Buzz [Member] writes:
mav.

Maybe you'll understand it better in your own terms... "When little Rover can no longer make it out side to piddle, it's time to send him to the FARM". Please don't use 'death panel" it sounds so final.
11/09/09 @ 5:10 pm
r-five [Member] writes:
Adds new meaning to an old Bob Dylan tune...

Gotta change the words a little...

"I aint gonna work on Barry's Farm no more..."

R5
11/09/09 @ 5:15 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
r-five...maybe I could hook up with Bernie M in the big house and bail out of my situation. The NE Mafia did all their business in the RI ACI for years.

In the interim I suggest we all ignore any contact with dk. dk is Richard in disguise. WB has given him multiple identities in barter for bad legal advice.

dk is better at trolling than I. Might ask him to mate next summer. Then again not. wouldn't want to pollute Nantucket Sound.
11/09/09 @ 5:47 pm
possee [Member] writes:
It appears, due to their noticeable absence, the neo-comm pro-obam crowd here is celebrating a victory with the passage of HR3962.

I wonder what they're imbibing at the festivities..

Perhaps watching Mao speeches or Hugo Chavez shaking hands with OB while shouting out!
Or writing letters of support to the wayward Army Major who has stress syndrome while recovering from rounds from a Massachusetts native officer.

Too bad she was hit from their hero, then he wouldn't be recovering at all.

God Bless our slain soldiers.

possee
11/09/09 @ 5:55 pm
possee [Member] writes:
maverick

I'd rather go out a blazing with my 12 gauge than go to jail with the likes of many here.

Besides, they don't allow weapons in jail..unless I get sentenced with you to the ACI in Cranston..

Imagine the great food we'd enjoy..
Sent in from Federal Hill.

Can't wait til 2016.

Until then, I will continue my comedy act with the neo-comms.


possee
11/09/09 @ 6:03 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
You already have have maverick...how many years of human waste-dumping are you responsible for? Talk about diss-gusting.
And you best be careful what you wish for with ACORN!! In their bid to take out the competition, the GOP may have shot their own hoof i mean foot.
"The congressional legislation intended to defund ACORN,is written so broadly that it applies to "any organization" that has been charged with breaking federal or state election laws, lobbying disclosure laws, campaign finance laws or filing fraudulent paperwork with any federal or state agency.
In other words, the bill could plausibly defund the entire military-industrial complex. Whoops."

Now that's funny!!! ahahahahaha
Get in line for your own piece of retribution pie all of you thieving MIC.
11/09/09 @ 6:04 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
possee...sad, very sad.

Thirty billion in new bonus's for Wall Street. Our money.

More concern for being politically correct at Ft. Hood vs why the Islamic Jihad was allowed to exist without interruption despite the CIA having knowledge of the threat.

Thank God the gun stores are out of ammo. The good folks are prepared.

Lock and load.

11/09/09 @ 6:14 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
"You already have have maverick".

Have, have what? All I have is a precious bride and family along with some great friends.

Is "piece of retribution pie" the same as wealth redistribution? As in I have to stand in line with bitter and cru to get mine.

I would starve to death before standing in line with you and taking handouts that were stolen from hard working middle Americans by a racist, marxist president.

11/09/09 @ 6:20 pm
r-five [Member] writes:
maverick:
maybe I could hook up with Bernie M in the big house and bail out of my situation. The NE Mafia did all their business in the RI ACI for years.

R5
It's also a great way of rehabilitating one's self for new and exciting adventures...look at Sandy "Socks" Berger, for example. And Rod "Big Hair" Blagojovich going forward...

maverick:
In the interim I suggest we all ignore any contact with dk. dk is Richard in disguise.

R5
Ever see The Exorcist?

The young priest starts telling the old priest about all the different demons possessing Linda Blair--when the old priest interrupts and says something to the effect "No--They are all One".

That's the assumption I work under when I encounter "liberals" online...

Different day, same Dem-on...

All same-same...

R-5

11/09/09 @ 6:37 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
r-5,

Both parties stink. But the Dems stink the normal amount. Politics has never been a clean game. Politicians always lie and shade the truth.

That does not mean, however, that one party can't push the envelope and become truly destructive.

So, the Dems stink as have all parties ever. The Republicans, however, are breaking very new ground:

a. Do next to nothing to help the country during 8 years of dominion.

b. Turn a budget in balance to the biggest deficit in history.

c. Lord over the start of the greatest recession since 1929.

d. Engage us in one war that it didn't finish and then in another that should never have been fought at incredible price.

e. When they deservedly get kicked out of office, become the party of "NO" and do nothing other than hamstring the political process during a time of real emergency.

The Dems are no picnic. But the Republicans are the most destructive party since the southern Democrats before the Civil War.

It's wrong to paint both parties with the same brush. The GOP worse. Much worse.
11/09/09 @ 6:38 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
R-5...thanks for your thoughts.

"big hair" Rod reminds me of all that is wrong with America. His bride had more WTF's than the Nedster. I wonder if she had dimples?

I will survive as will America. When it hits rock bottom there will be another revolution. If I am not here in body trust that I will be here in spirit.

Lock and Load.
11/09/09 @ 7:04 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Possee and Buzz,

Let me give you a bit of advice: I have HR 3962 on my hard drive and I read it whenever you guys make claims about it. So, you should actually read it before spouting off about it.

If you do, you'll see that it does not have sections 7201 or 7203. Sorry guys, the bills sections are numbered 501 to 573.

To be sure, I searched the bill for the words "misdemeanor" and "felony". The former is not in the bill and the latter appears once but not in possee's context.

Signed,

The "know all" dkfalmouth. Or should I rephrase that, the "actually reads the bills" dkfalmouth.

You guys are really embarrassing yourselves.
11/09/09 @ 7:25 pm
Buzz [Member] writes:
dk,

I don't feel embarrassed.

http://republicans.waysandmeans.house.gov/UploadedFiles/JCTletter110509.pdf
11/09/09 @ 7:41 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
No? That's good, cause it's only just beginning:

The United States has filed a lawsuit against Kaman Dayron Inc., alleging that the Orlando, Fla., defense contractor violated the False Claims Act by knowingly substituting non-conforming parts in fuzes (sophisticated ignition devices incorporating mechanical and/or electronic components) supplied to the military for use in "bunker buster" bombs.

See what you start when you cry to mommy?

11/09/09 @ 7:41 pm
margebunny21 [Member] writes:
RE:
"You guys are really embarrassing yourselves."

That was very well put. dkFalmouth.


So nice to show
these little froggies they're not alone...
11/09/09 @ 7:50 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Ooooo--nice ending too!

"Of course, the real bad news is that because these defective fuses weren't developed by the Association of Community Organizers for Reform Now, the media is likely to turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to the matter."

Good one! Yeah, some "liberal" media we have, eh?

RELATED:
What Kind Of Psychopath Sells Faulty Fuses To The Military? [Attackerman]
11/09/09 @ 8:59 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Sorry Buzz,

You've still embarrassed yourself.

First, the link you provided proves your and possee's mistake: The penalties in question are not in the health care bill: They're in the internal revenue code.

OK, let's say that's splitting hairs. let's continue:

The link you sent says: "In practice, the application of criminal penalties is infrequent". In fact, the link shows that only 1,500 criminal cases were opened in all of 2008 (in a country with what, 200 million filers?).

Obviously, the horrible sounding criminal penalties that you contend will rain down on the heads of people who don't get health insurance are reserved for the very worst of offenders.

Anyone with an ounce of sense will understand that such people will not be fined $25,000 in slapped in prison for a year as your quoting of sections 7201 and 7203 of the Internal Revenue Code suggests.

Sorry Buzz. I know that you and Possee like to throw stuff on the wall against health care reform until something sticks, but it definitely didn't work in this case.
11/10/09 @ 12:44 am
Richard [Member] writes:
Hi, Dave

How 'bout that possee? Emily Litella's got nuthin' on him, huh. He starts out about how the Dems health care bills give immunity to insurance companies from tort claims for injury and death, even cites chapter and section and claims it's what Elmendorf said. So you check them out and there's nothing in either bill that mentions immunity and you call him out on it.

Meanwhile, I check the reference in both bills to ERISA which is cited there, and there is an indirect reference to a section in ERISA which precludes state tort and contract claims against employee health plans because ERISA decisions are governed by federal law. Maybe ERISA should be amended to change that, but that's not what health care reform is about. I explain all this in addition to your comments, and what does possee do?

He changes the subject of course. Emily Littella would have said "Never mind," folded up her papers and left the podium. But these wingnuts? They don't have any shame so they don't know when they've been shamed. They just change the subject and rant off in a different direction.
11/10/09 @ 6:20 am
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Well, they say people have Bush Derangement Syndrome. Sad to see that Obama Derangement Syndrome is spreading so fast.

Bur I'll be damned...Arianna Huffington just expressed the cure for BDS!

"When corporate perpetrators don't have to admit they did anything wrong, it's as if the crime never happened. Which, of course, makes it much more likely that it will happen again."

Substitute gvt.officials for corporate perpetrators. That's it in a perfect little nut-shell.

11/10/09 @ 6:42 am
r-five [Member] writes:
dkfalmouth:
Both parties stink. But the Dems stink the normal amount.

R5
If, by that, you mean that the intensity of their stink hasn't changed much in the last 40 years, I'll agree heartily.

dkfalmouth:
Politics has never been a clean game. Politicians always lie and shade the truth.

R5
The problem goes way beyond that--it's not just a matter of simple character defects based on individual greed. It's ideological.

With all too few exceptions, the leadership of both parties have been more or less consciously working against the values and traditions of the Nation in order to create a collectivist State, founded on leftwing principles, that's intended to ultimately govern the individual from the cradle to the grave--in defiance of both the Constitution and the will of the People--and for the benefit of Big Business and Big Government.

In the face of that, the derelictions of individual politicians--however contemptible--pale by comparison.

R5
11/10/09 @ 7:18 am
bittersweet [Member] writes:
BS! When individual politicians conspire against their own people (to murder no less!), spit on the Constitution, blatantly break the law--"cause I can"--
That pales with nothing. It's right up there with anything you can throw at it.
11/10/09 @ 7:47 am
r-five [Member] writes:
dkfalmouth wrote (in part)
Obviously, the horrible sounding criminal penalties that you contend will rain down on the heads of people who don't get health insurance are reserved for the very worst of offenders.

Anyone with an ounce of sense will understand that such people will not be fined $25,000 in slapped in prison for a year as your quoting of sections 7201 and 7203 of the Internal Revenue Code suggests.

R5
Hoping that failure to enforce the law is going to somehow mitigate the effects of the law is not terribly good law--or good logic.

Compulsion is compulsion regardless of how uniformly penalties are inflicted.

R5
11/10/09 @ 8:04 am
possee [Member] writes:
Richard
"Read the friggin bill, that's if you can read".
Under the proposed HR3926 , the right to NOT sue insurance companies remains ,by keeping ERISA intact.
Your illustrious leader Harry Reid, and Ted Kennedy both quoted the following..

Kennedy :“Patients should have the right to hold their [insurance company] accountable in court when its negligence causes the injury or death of a patient.No other industry in America enjoys immunity from accountability for its actions,and the insurance industry does not deserve it either.
Harry Reid.
"Today, even an HMO involved directly in dictating, denying, or delaying care for a patient can use a loophole in what we call ERISA to avoid any responsibility for the consequences of its actions,” “The American people simply do not support that.”

Page 140 of the House bill reads: “Nothing in paragraphs (1) or (2) shall be construed as affecting the application of section 514 of the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974.”

So much for reform and protecting patients rights.

possee
11/10/09 @ 9:47 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
r-5, You shouldn't be so eager to denigrate compulsions. Even though they limit freedoms, they're often beneficial to society. Existing compulsions include:

One must:
- Have auto insurance to drive
- Have home insurance to own a home
- Pay income tax

Of course, any compulsion contained in law must be justified. With health insurance, making everyone have insurance is fundamental to making it affordable. In insurance, a situation where only those who are likely to need insurance get insurance is called "anti-insurance". Insuring just those people likely to need insurance means outrageous, unaffordable premiums.

All other industrialized nations have mandates where all citizens must be insured because they understand anti-insurance. Without the young and healthy, the older and unhealthy cannot afford insurance and the whole system collapses.

Now, I can see why one might think this un-american: We don't like forcing things on people.

But we've done it many times when it benefited society. Health Care affordable to all important. It may justify a personal mandate.
11/10/09 @ 9:57 pm
Buzz [Member] writes:
If I own my home I'm required to have insurance? That's a new one... never heard that before. If that's the case (which it isn't) why doesn't the government take it over... you know, for the common good and to make it more affordable for everyone. Then, let's do auto insurance as well.
11/10/09 @ 11:38 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Oh boy Buzz, I must have just made your day. You got me. Forgot to mention the mortgage thing. Good work sport!

Of course, that's just about the level of discourse that I should expect of someone who argues that not getting health insurance will cause $25K fines and a year in prison to rain down.

You really believe that don't you? Pitiful.
11/11/09 @ 7:20 am
r-five [Member] writes:
dkfalmouth wrote (in part):
r-5, You shouldn't be so eager to denigrate compulsions. Even though they limit freedoms, they're often beneficial to society. Existing compulsions include:

One must:
- Have auto insurance to drive

R5
At the present time, one is not obligated to buy auto insurance if one does not drive. Of course, IF everyone WERE compelled to buy auto insurance, premiums would certainly be cheaper for everyone...

dkfalmouth:
- Have home insurance to own a home

R5
See above

dkfalmouth
- Pay income tax

R5
Legitimized by specific Constitutional amendment
...
R5
Now, I can see why one might think this un-american: We don't like forcing things on people. But we've done it many times when it benefited society.

R5
One can always come up with arguments for collectivist measures & both parties have been doing precisely that for decades.
Sooner or later there comes a point when "benefit to society" becomes too costly in terms of the damage it does to individual liberty

R5
11/11/09 @ 7:24 am
possee [Member] writes:
Peter, Mav, R-5, Buzz

Straight from their messiahs mouth!

OB/ABC are now right wing propagandists!


"Interview with the President: Jail Time for Those without Health Care Insurance? "
November 09, 2009 6:30 PM

"During an exclusive interview with ABC News’ Jake Tapper today, President Obama said that penalties are appropriate for people who try to “free ride” the health care system."

"Under the House bill those who can afford to buy insurance and don’t’, pay a fine. If they refuse to pay that fine there’s a threat – as with a lot of tax fines – of jail time."

"Mr. Obama said penalties have to be high enough for people to not game the system,The President said that he didn’t think the question over the appropriateness of possible jail time is the “biggest question” the House and Senate are facing right now."

Question is, are Richard,dk, and bitter going to refute the President?

possee
11/11/09 @ 7:26 am
Buzz [Member] writes:
dk,

Please go easy on me... I'm no match for you. Didn't you say you worked the window at a drive-up claims office?
Back to the issue at hand... are you really obligated to by home insurance if you own your own home... AFLACK!
11/11/09 @ 7:32 am
bittersweet [Member] writes:
The problem with Capitalism is that individual liberty is tied to how much money you have.
You can't really call yourself free when you're tied to the grist-mill and not getting anywhere.Running to stand still.
So, what does the New Right propose to do about insuring an economy that is affordable for all Americans? Or does the New Right take the road of the Old Right and put collective business interests ahead of everything else?
And I would really like to know what the New Right is going to do with Social Security and Medicare.
Corporate welfare.
Waste fraud and abuse in the military.
Thank you on behalf of my 2 grandfathers, uncle and cousins who served in the military.
11/11/09 @ 7:37 am
Buzz [Member] writes:
bitter,

I don't know what the "New Right" is doing about the ecomomy... but here's what the "New Left" is doing:

From the Boston Globe: "BOSTON - A new review has found that the number of jobs created or saved by federal stimulus money in Massachusetts has been greatly exaggerated.

The Boston Globe reports Wednesday that while Massachusetts recipients of federal stimulus money collectively report more than 12,000 jobs saved or created, that number has been inflated by miscounts, erroneous figures, or claiming jobs for work not yet started."

How's that Hope and Change working for you?
11/11/09 @ 7:43 am
possee [Member] writes:
buzz, bitter

Here's what the new left wing has in store for you..

Interview with the President: Jail Time for Those without Health Care Insurance? "
November 09, 2009 6:30 PM

read my prior comment for full details.

Ah, hope and change.
Do not pass go
Go directly to jail
Bamopoly

possee
11/11/09 @ 7:51 am
r-five [Member] writes:
Obama wrote:
"Under the House bill those who can afford to buy insurance and don’t’, pay a fine. If they refuse to pay that fine there’s a threat – as with a lot of tax fines – of jail time."

R5
One can only hope that resisters will receive appropriate counseling while incarcerated, so that they might understand how they have harmed society through their failure to have a proper appreciation and regard for social responsibility.

R5
11/11/09 @ 7:56 am
Buzz [Member] writes:
possee, R5,

If I become a member of the Church of Scientology, can I get an exemption?


A healthy prison population is a happy prison population.
11/11/09 @ 8:09 am
possee [Member] writes:
One must be a member in good standing of any religious belief out side the doctrines of Christianity or Judaism.
Once verified, you automatically are exempt, especially those of the newly accepted worldwide religion Algorism..

not be confused with algorithm

possee
11/11/09 @ 8:13 am
possee [Member] writes:
Once incarcerated, you will be subject to the daily verses of Mao, Chavez, Castro, Obama..

At the end of each day, you will recieve legal counsel from his most honorable and all knowing Sir Latimer.

possee
11/11/09 @ 8:27 am
bittersweet [Member] writes:
You lie when you say this administration represents the left. Do you do it on purpose, or to mislead?
If this was a New Left administration, we would not be debating anything, we would be implementing a single-payer health plan NOW. We would be getting the hell out of Iraq and Afghanistan NOW and we would not give another dime or high-tech piece of weaponry to Israel unless and until they stopped their illegal settlement building, and started complying with International law.
11/11/09 @ 8:39 am
r-five [Member] writes:
Does anyone know if there are any penalties for failure to receive "end-of-life" counseling?

R5
11/11/09 @ 8:49 am
bittersweet [Member] writes:
What would you propose to do about seniors who do not have an income,and are too old to work? Would you cut off Social Security and medicare?

That's the question I would like answered.Much more important than your attempts to minimize the problem.

What would you do about all the horrible gvt. money that is going to seniors, the military, and big business subsidies?
11/11/09 @ 8:56 am
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Actually, the word I was looking for is trivialize.You trivialize the good that the gvt. does on behalf of people, and propose to substitute it with what?

LET ME GEUSS: Laizze faire do what thou will big money--hands off all regulating and let privitization ie FOR PROFIT only rule.
Throw the bums on the street, since they weren't smart enough to make it big in the stock-market.
Let business pay 2$ an hour--who cares?
11/11/09 @ 9:40 am
r-five [Member] writes:
bittersweet asks:
What would you propose to do about seniors who do not have an income,and are too old to work? Would you cut off Social Security and medicare?

R5
Speaking for myself, I would replace both SS and MC (as well as almost all other entitlement programs) with a guaranteed-income safety net that would take the form of a flat rate income tax that provides a "refund" for individuals whose income has not matched their personal exemption.

Bittersweet:
What would you do about all the horrible gvt. money that is going to seniors,

R5
see above

Bittersweet:
the military,

R5
Reductions through base closures and abrogation of treaty commitments.

Bittersweet:
and big business subsidies?

R5
To be eliminated.
11/11/09 @ 9:43 am
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Buzz,

I erred when I chose paying a mortgage as a compulsion. One makes a choice when taking on a mortgage.

Regarding the personal mandate: I didn't like this until I learned more about the health care systems of other countries that are MUCH better than ours. Then I was reminded that in any insurance system it is necessary to insure everyone.

Let's say we're talking about Life Insurance. Everyone doesn't have that. However, a Life Insurance company can't just insure the elderly and sick. That would make premiums unaffordable. So, a Life Insurer must also sell to young healthy people.

The countries with superior health ins. systems have personal mandates so that the healthy participate. This keeps premiums affordable.

Nobody likes mandates, especially in the U.S. They are restrictions on our freedom. Is it worth taking on this mandate to have affordable health insurance? It's debatable. But that's the logic behind it. And lets be serious about the penalties: The IRS will use penalties and interest not a year in prison if someone doesn't get health insurance.
11/11/09 @ 9:59 am
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Hey r-5,

I think you'd better pack up and move to some part of the world that doesn't have any government if you're so horribly opposed to everything that government does.

Let's see, what places might work? Afghanistan comes to mind. You'd have a whole lot of freedom from government action there. Of course, you wouldn't have much of anything else, including safety.

Returning to reality: It is certainly reasonable to question the reach and power of government. I agree that we should be suspicious of government. But the extreme libertarian philosophy, which involves an automatic "no" to virtually any government action, is just too extreme.

Read my last post to Buzz about the individual mandate. Reasonable people can debate if the benefits of such a mandate justify its reduction in our freedom. I think that deciding if one supports or opposes the individual mandate comes down to weighing the benefits against the cost. An extreme libertarian will say "No" automatically without weighing both sides. That's too simple.
11/11/09 @ 10:17 am
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
r-5,

Let me put the question explicitly: An individual mandate will result in significantly lower health insurance premiums for everyone.

However, a mandate is a reduction in our freedom. That's seems un-American.

Question: Are lower, affordable health insurance premiums enough to justify a mandate that everyone must have health insurance and then IRS penalty and interest to anyone who doesn't? (Again, $25,000 penalties and jail time are not in the cards).

11/11/09 @ 12:15 pm
r-five [Member] writes:
dkfalmouth:
Question: Are lower, affordable health insurance premiums enough to justify a mandate that everyone must have health insurance and then IRS penalty and interest to anyone who doesn't? (Again, $25,000 penalties and jail time are not in the cards).

R5
As I have written elsewhere, it may be that we do not have a viable choice given our present and near-term circumstances.

To that end, enactment of this Bill--although perhaps necessary--ought to be an occasion for grief and anger, rather than for rejoicing and celebration.

Every man, woman and child in America ought to wear black and hang their heads in shame that things have come to this pass.

Moreover: I believe that this bill is no cure-all--indeed, I see it as only a temporary way-station on the road to full nationalization--unless radical measures are taken to correct our present course.

To that end, the People will need to adopt the same spirit of grim resolution as did our forefathers in the face of similar threats to Liberty.

R5
11/11/09 @ 1:05 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
r-5,

I'd still like to hear your thoughts on the personal mandate.

The biggest problem with the current bill is that it doesn't cut costs enough, primarily, costs in the private insurance market. The new restrictions on private insurance (no prior-conditions, etc.) will cause private insurers to jack premiums up even more than they have in the past.

You bemoan our path to "nationalization". How are you defining that term? Remember the Frontline special "Sick Around the World" that I recommended awhile ago? It reviews 5 national healthcare systems and the only one that is truly "nationalized" - where doctors work for the state and the state owns the hospitals - is England. In all the rest, doctors and hospitals are still private. While the 5 systems vary, the common things are: One set of reimbursement rates, health insurance is non-profit, and everyone must join.

With the exception of England, none of these systems are "nationalized", that is, state owned. Not even close.

If you're equating "nationalization" with "state owned" you should really see that special.
11/11/09 @ 1:26 pm
Buzz [Member] writes:
dk,

If you have a moment. Please read this article on Canadian Health Care.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_canadian_healthcare.html
11/11/09 @ 1:37 pm
r-five [Member] writes:
That we have gotten ourselves into a situation (however temporary) where "personal mandates" [sic] may be necessary to keep the health care system from imploding entirely ought to be a matter of grief and anger on the part of the People.

Those are indeed my thoughts with respect to the "personal mandate" (ie. compulsion) as another mile-marker on the collectivists' highway.

It is one thing for government to prohibit certain actions--it is quite another thing to compell all to take certain actions.

By "nationalization" in my previous post I did not necessarily mean actual govt ownership of hospitals etc (although that is certainly a possible way things might ultimately play out) but rather removal of the health care system as a whole from the free market to full governmental control and regulation.

R5

11/11/09 @ 2:08 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
r-5,

You say "full government control and regulation" but there are many possible levels of government involvement. Most are far short from "full government control" and it's very important to remember that.

In virtually all national health care systems, doctors and hospitals remain private.

In Germany, private non-profit health insurers provide insurance. In others, the government collects premiums through taxes and does the insurance.

You've really gotta see that Frontline special. It's amazing to see the approaches taken in other countries, to see how they make sense and how they're not as socialist or nationalist as you might think. And then, of course, there's how they work. MUCH better than our system.
11/11/09 @ 2:19 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Buzz,

For every article trashing the Canada, I've seen one that says that its problems are exaggerated. Still, my gut feel is that Canada is far from the best of the national health care systems.

Let's assume, for now, that Canada's system stinks.

Who says that we should do health care Canada's way? There are plenty of other more successful systems to look to around the world: Germany, Switzerland, France, Japan, Hong Kong, and on and on.

Why can't we look at those systems and pick and choose what works and what is compatible with our national values?

No, Buzz, falling back on Canada's problems is pretty much of a cop out.

I keep pushing the Frontline special "Sick Around the World" available through NetFlix. There you'll really see how different approaches have worked elsewhere.

Trashing Canada is very narrow thinking and, frankly, mainly a debating tactic Buzz. You should consider other countries too.
11/11/09 @ 2:50 pm
r-five [Member] writes:
dkfalmouth wrore:
Why can't we look at those systems and pick and choose what works and what is compatible with our national values?

R5
I was not aware that compulsory participation was a "national value"

R5
11/11/09 @ 2:54 pm
r-five [Member] writes:
dkfalmouth:
Most are far short from "full government control" and it's very important to remember that.

In virtually all national health care systems, doctors and hospitals remain private.

In Germany, private non-profit health insurers provide insurance. In others, the government collects premiums through taxes and does the insurance.

R5
In all instances, however, the system has been essentially withdrawn from market forces, and has come under government direction--whether by actual ownership, or by price control.

R5
11/11/09 @ 3:07 pm
Buzz [Member] writes:
dk,

Is the bill congress just passed similar to what you'd like to see in this country?
11/11/09 @ 3:41 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
r-5,

That is true. Government becomes more prevalent and market forces less prevalent.

But even that doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing. In Germany, several large non-profits compete to provide insurance. In that Frontline special I keep suggesting, a representative of one of those non-profits is asked: "If you're non-profit, what's your motive to excel and to compete?". The answer was: "Well, we don't want to go away. We want to keep our jobs, get promoted, etc. We also just plain take pride in our jobs".

My other response is: Who says that market forces work in Health Care (or more accurately: Health Insurance)? It sure as heck hasn't worked here.

Having said that: I would have liked to see and debated a conservative/libertarian approach from the Bush administration. I would have had an open mind and perhaps there is a way to provide everyone with affordable insurance via the market alone.

Alas, Bush and company didn't give a hoot about health care. They had a chance to show us a market driven approach but they passed. Too bad.
11/11/09 @ 3:57 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Well r-5, a personal mandate - that is a compulsion - is certainly not a national value IF we're too close minded to consider the benefit.

As I've said more than once now, a new compulsion is a reduction in freedom and not something to be desired. But in life, sometimes it's necessary to accept something that we don't like for a greater benefit. I can't say categorically that the reduction in insurance premiums that a personal mandate would generate would make the loss of freedom worth it. But it's worth considering, rather than rejecting it out of hand without consideration. That's my opinion anyway.
11/11/09 @ 4:04 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Buzz,

You ask: "Is the bill congress just passed similar to what you'd like to see in this country?"

No. This bill doesn't go far enough. I would like to see an approach similar to what other countries have done in their national health care systems.

Let me use a baseball analogy. In the health care game, it's the 8th inning, the bases are loaded, and we're down 3 runs. Obama's bill represents a bunt. It's not close to enough. Mainly, it doesn't do nearly enough to reduce/control costs.

But the only way to do that is to move way from for-profit private insurance. And that's not even close to being politically possible today.

I'm one of those who hope that a Public Option is created, that it performs well, that this success shows Americans that government run health care can succeed, and that it is expanded over time. We need other fundamental reforms too including the elimination of fee for service.
11/11/09 @ 4:11 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
dk...thanks for a good nights sleep. You and Latimer could talk a dog off a meat wagon.
11/11/09 @ 4:16 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Maverick,

I'm sorry that public policy issues are too tough for you. Sleep well....
11/11/09 @ 4:18 pm
r-five [Member] writes:
Dkfalmouth:
Who says that market forces work in Health Care (or more accurately: Health Insurance)? It sure as heck hasn't worked here.

R5
Because price inflation from 40 years of unrestrained taxpayer-subsidized demand wrecked the operation of the market,

Dkfalmouth
Having said that: I would have liked to see and debated a conservative libertarian approach from the Bush administration.

R5
Me too. But the Bush administration was neither libertarian, nor conservative

Dkfalmouth
…a new compulsion is a reduction in freedom and not something to be desired. But in life, sometimes it's necessary to accept something that we don't like for a greater benefit. I can't say categorically that the reduction in insurance premiums that a personal mandate would generate would make the loss of freedom worth it. But it's worth considering, rather than rejecting it out of hand without consideration. That's my opinion anyway.

R5
Fair enough—that acknowledgment from you is my cue to leave this debate.
11/11/09 @ 4:30 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
r-5,

In what way have tax payers subsidized demand for private insurance? Are you referring to the tax deductibility of the employer portion of health insurance?

If that's what you're referring to, how has has it "wrecked the operation of the market"?

If not, what are you referring to?
11/11/09 @ 4:35 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
dkfalmouth ...now that r-five has eaten your lunch what will you do for an encore?

I know! You want to return to the Republican Party. Sorry they have already joined forces with the Democrats. One party-different names.
11/11/09 @ 4:42 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Mav,

No need to pay attention to your score keeping. By your own admission, you can't even follow the game!

But you still like to comment on things that you know nothing of don't you?
11/11/09 @ 5:11 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
dk..."By your own admission, you can't even follow the game!"

Don't have to. r-5 keeps cleaning your clock. I am an innocent bystander in this war of words.
11/11/09 @ 5:38 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Well Maverick, maybe someday you'll have the courage to learn enough to join the conversation.

Until then.... bye, bye.
11/11/09 @ 5:44 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Mav is the thinking man's blogger.
ahahahaha
Yeah-you think what he say or you dumdum.
He should like the traffic anyway--sells trips on his boat.

11/11/09 @ 6:30 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
dk...speaking of courage did you ever serve in the military?
11/11/09 @ 6:34 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
I don't share personal information on blogs Mav. Not to mention the fact that that particular piece of information is totally irrelevant to health care.
11/11/09 @ 6:35 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
I just remembered Mav: The single piece of personal information that I've provided is my previous party affiliation. And guess who used that against me a few posts ago? One guess.
11/11/09 @ 7:10 pm
possee [Member] writes:
dk
Since you and your sidekick spent your precious time refuting my facts regarding fines and jail sentences re;HR3962...
what is your response to ABC and Obama (as posted by me this a.m.)with link provided..substantiating my prior disputed facts?

Are they shills for the right wing GOP?

I' m sure you two will have some eloquent answer.

possee
11/11/09 @ 7:24 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
dk...you mentioned courage. As in that's what it takes to blog?

On Veterans Day I would hope that all who served would get a little thanks from those who didn't but have received the benefit of freedom.
11/11/09 @ 7:29 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
I don't know possee, how often I can point out your errors. My goodness.

What ABC and Obama are referring to is the tax penalty that will be levied upon people who don't get health insurance. There's debate over the size of that penalty but it's measured in the hundreds of dollars.

The penalty is very different from the $25,000 and 1 year in jail penalties that you have insisted will rain down on people who don't get health insurance. Of course, these are maximum penalties in the Internal Revenue code for use in criminal cases.

Let's make this simple:

Hundreds of dollars in tax penalties

versus

$25,000 and 1 year in jail penalties if convicted of criminal tax evasion.

See any difference there? For your sake, I sure hope so.
11/11/09 @ 7:47 pm
j. madden [Member] writes:
"dk...speaking of courage did you ever serve in the military?" What a loaded question, outrageous as well. I did serve in the military. And, I did in part, so no American would be asked to respond to questions such as this. Digital ugliness and out of bounds, flung out as a comment on Veterans Day - nasty.
11/11/09 @ 8:12 pm
maverick [Member] writes:
j.madden...speak for yourself. I will answer any comment as I see fit. After what I have been through in this life the last thing I need is the drivel of dk.

"dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Well Maverick, maybe someday you'll have the courage to learn enough to join the conversation"

J.madden...take a flying F**k on Veterans Day and if you don't like my thoughts I can be found whenever or wherever you desire.
11/11/09 @ 8:20 pm
Buzz [Member] writes:
dk,

Let's cut to the chase. After seeing what "Cash for Clunkers" and the "Stimulus" have gotten us, I have no faith that a government sponsored heath bill will be anything but a disaster.
11/11/09 @ 8:31 pm
possee [Member] writes:
I've HIGHLIGHTED the exact comments by Ob that you've failed to read, or comprehend..
Interview with the President: Jail Time for Those without Health Care Insurance? "
November 09, 2009 6:30 PM

"During an exclusive interview with ABC News’ Jake Tapper today, President Obama said that PENALTIES ARE APPROPRIATE for people who try to “free ride” the health care system."
"Under the House bill those who can afford to buy insurance and don’t’,pay a fine. If they refuse to pay that fine there’s a threat – AS WITH A LOT OF TAX FINES – OF JAIL TIME."
"Mr. Obama said penalties have to be HIGH ENOUGH for people to not game the system,THE PRESIDENT SAID that he didn’t think THE QUESTION OVER THE APPROPRIATENESS OF POSSIBLE JAIL TIME is the “biggest question” the House and Senate are facing right now."
several hundred dollars is not mentioned.

Obama said, "penalties have to be high enough'

yet in the messiahs own words, you still repudiate..

infedel!

Thank you for confirming your lack of faith to the almighty one.

possee
11/11/09 @ 8:44 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
possee,

Let's say you underpay your taxes by $750 this year and the IRS calls you on it. They'll come after you with civil steps: Penalties, interest, etc. and they'll escalate. THEORETICALLY your transgression could escalate to deserve criminal prosecution, that is, the $25,000 and 1 year jail term penalty.

Of course, the chances of that with a $750 underpayment are nil.

Now, if you want to insist that someone not paying a health insurance tax penalty will be slapped with a $25,000 fine or land in jail for a year, then have at it. Of course, the rest of us will know you're nuts.
11/11/09 @ 8:55 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Let's cut to the other chase....
We had eight years of Republican control. And beleeeeeve me when I say a lot of us didn't like it. Hated it. Wanted to scream everyday. But, we had to deal with it. Why? Because shrubnuts there was the elected President of the United States.
Now it's President Obama, who the other side of the coin has elected.
So who cares if you have faith or not? You had eight years for your policies,now it's time to move over red rover and let Obama take over.
You don't like it? Oh Well. It's a country of many people....not just you.
As far as jail for no healthcare....that's idiotic! I don't believe they would be so stupid as to jail anybody for that. They would look like fools.
Obama also said "This is a healthcare bill, not an abortion bill."
That angered a lot of people too. At LEAST with Obama, there is room for debate and compromise. With Bush it was my way or the highway.
Truly, you righties need to grow up. You can't always have your way!!!
Think of it as a learning experience for your collective soul.
11/11/09 @ 9:07 pm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
As far as Veterans Day...when we were kids and the Vietnam War was going on, all us kids had bracelets that we wore. It had the name of as soldier who was serving overseas on it.
So, everyday, we would look at that bracelet many times over. The war was always with us.All of us.
I wrote to the veterans adm. last year and told them about it, thinking they should do something like that, but well..nothing ever happened. But maybe somebody else could.
My dad told me that my cousin was in Delta Force that rescued the hostages in Iran. When i asked my cousin about it, he said "I don't know what you're talking about."
I hate it when people say "thank you for your service"...that grates on my nerves. What we should do is make sure they and their families have the best of everything this country has to offer them.
One day we'll have a world without war...isn't Satan's 1,000yrs. up yet?
11/11/09 @ 9:08 pm
margebunny21 [Member] writes:
Jmadden wrote:
"dk...speaking of courage did you ever serve in the military?" What a loaded question, outrageous as well.

I WOULD NOT consider this to be a "outrageous" question.
And if you've read enough of Mav's writings, you may deduct that the possibilities of
him coming to a fight with "unloaded"
questions are about as slim as him
changing his opinion on Nantucket Sound.

You may also deduct that one person only
decides whether he posts or not, and leave the issue to them.

Veterans Day is'nt the brightest day of the year to try to set someone straight too.

You're in the wrong to appoint yourself as judge
in this matter (if it is one), and some may
consider your tirade "outrageous"....

You would'nt make a good Tactitian.
11/11/09 @ 9:19 pm
possee [Member] writes:
New from Kentucky Fried Chicken!

We all remember the "Hillary Meal" --- Small breasts and big thighs.
We all remember the 'Bush' meal.
all right wings and a$#holes.
Now, KFC has announced an addition to their chicken dinners.
It's called the Obama Cabinet Bucket. It consists of nothing but..

left wings and a*@holes.
11/11/09 @ 9:28 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
margebunny,

This site is all about offering opinion. When one does that, he/she is not setting himself up as "judge". J.madden offered opinion. You got a problem with that? If so, I'd say ignore this blog.
11/11/09 @ 9:34 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Buzz,

Economic messes as bad as the one inherited by Obama from Bush take years to fix. Remember, this is the worst economic disaster since 1929.

Of course, you Obama haters will ignore this economic reality just because you hate him so much.

But anyone who knows anything about Economics will know that you're dead wrong. This was going to be a very long, painful slog in the very best of circumstances.

Having said that, I did not like the stimulus either.
11/11/09 @ 9:42 pm
Buzz [Member] writes:
dk,

First off, enough with the "Obama hater", I don't hate the man, I dislike his policies and programs.

I'm sure you liked the "stimulus" when it was first proposed, it was going to get us out of this mess and put us back on the road to prosperity. It isn't working and we're being buried in debt and the dollar is loosing value daily. Cash for clunkers failed to live up to its billing as well and again, cost us money that will have to be paid back. Excuse me for being leery of a gov't health care plan being shoved down our throat with a price tag like we've never seen before.

By the way, last week it was California and today it's Massachusetts admitting that the employment claims from the stimulus are bogus. Yes, I've become a non-believer.... when will you?
11/11/09 @ 10:01 pm
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Buzz,

I complained about the stimulus from day one because it was an unfocused grab bag of Congressional pork.

Have you taken any economics? If so, you know that a downturn like this one will take years to fix. FDR didn't fix the Great Depression for years, and basically not at all (WWII did that). Does he deserve criticism? No: Some economic holes just take years to fill.

Does this mean that Obama's economic policies are necessarily top notch? No. The jury is out. But it's too early to conclude that they've failed. No matter what Obama did, this mess was going to last for years.

Re: Health Care's price tag: It will be paid for, that is, no deficit increase. Too bad Bush couldn't say that about Iraq, Afghanistan, and his tax cuts. Obama will be able to say this.
11/11/09 @ 10:38 pm
possee [Member] writes:
buzz
From the director of the CBO

Director’s Blog

« Federal Budget Deficit Totals $1.4 Trillion in Fiscal Year 2009Entitlement Spending and the Long-Term Budget Outlook »Updated Estimate for Health Care Legislation Pending in the House
Earlier today, I posted a blog about the cost estimate for the health care legislation pending in the House. I explained how the repeal of certain tax rules in H.R. 3962, the health care bill, would now generate less revenue because the rules would only be in effect for two years during the 2010-2019 period as a result of the unemployment legislation that was signed into law today. The original estimate for the impact of that repeal under H.R. 3962, about $26 billion over the 10-year period, will now be reduced to about $6 billion. CBO just issued an updated estimate for the health care bill, reflecting the fact that the additional revenues that would result from its enactment will be smaller than those shown in last night’s estimate.

ZERO DEFICIT?

Ithink not..

I know they hate the facts!
But what does the director of CBO know?
posse
11/12/09 @ 8:50 am
bittersweet [Member] writes:
More facts:

NUKE GAZA: A WORLD GONE MAD
Date: October 26, 2009
Topic: 911 & Terror War

GAZA ISN'T ABOUT ISRAELI SECURITY

GAZA IS ABOUT A WORLD GONE MAD

by Jeff Gates, Staff Writer

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About This Blog

Richard Latimer is a practicing attorney in Falmouth, MA, doing business as Richard K. Latimer, Attorney at Law, 222 Main Street, Falmouth, MA.  His practice centers on litigation with a focus on personal injury and disability law, in addition to contracts, construction disputes and other insurance litigation as well. Telephone (508) 548-7006 and e-mail rklaw@cape.com

He is a 1972 graduate of U.Mass, Amherst and a 1975 graduate of the Columbia University School of Law and a member of the Massachusetts Bar since 1975.

He and his wife of 39 years, Adrienne, and we have a 21 year old son Brian, a 2006 graduate of Falmouth High School, who is presently enrolled at Cape Cod Community and who plans to transfer to U.Mass next fall.  Richard has been active in local Falmouth politics, presently as a Town Meeting member and member of the Planning Board.

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