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:: Thursday, July 29th, 2010Cape & Islands News
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Salazar on Cape on Ground Hog Day for Sunrise Greeting Ceremony
01/28/10 · 7:00 pm :: posted by CCToday
Secretary of the Interior to visit Mashpee's South Beach at 6am on Tuesday
Aquinnah visit to follow. Local environmental groups to honor tribe's privacy
By Walter Brooks
There is seldom if ever a clear view of the horizon from any beach in Mashpee which does not have an obstruction. The obstructions start with Monomoy Island to the east, Nantucket to the southeast including the proposed Tuckernuck site for a wind farm, and Martha's Vineyard to the south. The view is also continuously cluttered with ferries, sailboats and fishing vessels as the rising sun moves across these areas from solstice to solstice and back again each year.
As we reported on Tuesday, Secretary of the Interior Ken Salazar has scheduled a trip to Boston for this coming Tuesday "to resolve a dispute over the country's first offshore wind project."
Mr. Salazar added that the Cape Wind project was "important for this country", but won't determine the direction of offshore wind development in total.
Although the secretary's office has not finalized his schedule, informed sources in Mashpee tell us that Mr. Salazar will be there as early as 6am.
That's the hour of sunrise at this time of year.
Tuesday is also Ground Hog Day
Dawn is allegedly the time when our local tribe gathers on a beach to have their "Sunrise Greeting Ceremony."
When asked, Cape Wind sources said they had not been invited to attend the meetings here. A second Indian-Salazar meeting is also scheduled in Aquinnah on Martha's Vineyard.
Remarking that next Tuesday is Ground Hog Day a local chamber of commerce official commented, "I suppose if Salazar sees his shadow that means we'll have eight more years of phony delays for Cape Wind."
Local environmental activists have informed cc2day that they will honor the tribe's desire for privacy during the secretary's visit. Several added that they have a deep respect and regard for Mr. Salazar and know he will "cross every T and dot every I before making a wise decision."
"I suppose if Salazar sees his shadow that means we'll have eight more years of phony delays for Cape Wind."
Tug of warriors?
It has also been reported that there is dissension among Mashpee tribal leaders about who should be the master of ceremony for the Interior Secretary's visit.
Tribal Chairman Cedric Cromwell feels it is his right and responsibility, while the Tribal Historic Preservation Authority and Medicine Man in training George "Chucky" Green believes it to be his show because he initiated the letter to the Massachusetts Historical Commission which started the whole sideshow rolling several months ago.
Behind all this looms the heavy and well-endowed hand of the Alliance to Protect Nantucket Sound on whose stationery Mr. Green's letter was written. The Alliance is reputed to have spent over $20 million to date to stop the wind farm. The group's top financial supporter is Osterville billionaire Bill Koch. The group's co-chairman is Yarmouth's Christy Mihos who is a candidate for the Republican nomination for Governor this election.
Praying to what?
The two separate studies for the Cape Wind project, first by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and later by the Interior Department, of the area for the proposed wind farm, Horseshoe Shoal, included studies for Indian artifacts.
The Massachusetts Underwater Archeological Board reported that none were found there.
The Mashpee tribe are what were called "Praying Indians" because they converted from their native beliefs to Christianity for which they were given the area known as Mashpee by the early Cape Cod colonists. The tribe also served with the colonists against the Wampanoags and other Indian tribes during the infamous "King Philip's War", said to be the bloodiest in U.S. history.
Oil rigs and 2 islands block the view too
Salazar said in our earlier story that the Interior Department would on today initiate a 45-day public comment period on the environmental impacts of allowing seismic operations in the Atlantic. Six companies have applied to conduct seismic operations in the coastal waters and another three have indicated interest in doing so.
"We do not know a lot about the Atlantic," Salazar told the Platts Energy Podium. "That's because for 30 years there has been no geophysical information that's been developed in connection with the resources out in the Atlantic."
600-1,000 new jobs at stake
As an interesting sidebar, Governor Deval Patrick spoke at the Cape Wind Contractors Meeting Thursday in Boston on the importance of the jobs that will be created by Cape Wind and in making Massachusetts a global leader in offshore clean energy.
Companies from all over the world gathered to hear details on a timeline and on critical project components. An influx of international contractors, subcontractors and suppliers will bring new jobs to Massachusetts. The Governor's office said that his continued commitment to job creation and clean energy expansion has helped attract major companies to the project, and that Green technology is the job market of the future, and Massachusetts is a great place to do business.
Economic analysis of Cape Wind anticipates that the project will create 600-1,000 direct and indirect jobs.
128 comments
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01/28/10 @ 8:31 pm
Ana Paulina [Member] writes:
The North Atlantic is prone to earthquakes and volcanic eruptions, that is one area I wouldn't go probing around in.
[ Show all comments by this user ]
dolphin [Member] writes:
"As an interesting sidebar, Governor Deval Patrick spoke at the Cape Wind Contractors Meeting today in Boston on the importance of the jobs that will be created by Cape Wind and in making Massachusetts a global leader in offshore clean energy."
How many jobs will be created and for how long?
It didn't take this fraud long to jump on the "jobs" campaign.
How many jobs will be created and for how long?
It didn't take this fraud long to jump on the "jobs" campaign.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Anyone interested in influencing the outcome of the process that the Interior Department has launched to review the worthiness of Nantucket Sound for listing on the National Register of Historic Places can do so at this site: http://www.regulations.gov/search/Regs/home.html#submitComment?R=0900006480a83094
After ignoring the pleas of the tribes for too long the Interior Dept has launched the process stipulated by law . I'm a strong supporter of Cape Wind but I will accept the outcome of this process even if it goes against Cape Wind because the process is lawful.
Does anyone believe the tribes and the Alliance will do the same? Very doubtful. If they lose this round (and they probably will) the next step will be a suit under the Indian Religious Freedom Act. And if that fails, theyll be another step as long as the Alliance doesn't run out of money.
After ignoring the pleas of the tribes for too long the Interior Dept has launched the process stipulated by law . I'm a strong supporter of Cape Wind but I will accept the outcome of this process even if it goes against Cape Wind because the process is lawful.
Does anyone believe the tribes and the Alliance will do the same? Very doubtful. If they lose this round (and they probably will) the next step will be a suit under the Indian Religious Freedom Act. And if that fails, theyll be another step as long as the Alliance doesn't run out of money.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Well, here's another tribe with a different complaint:
"ANCHORAGE, Alaska — One of Alaska's most eroded villages wants to revive a lawsuit that claims greenhouse gasses from oil, power and coal companies are to blame for the climate change endangering the tiny community.
Oil giants Exxon Mobil Corp. and BP PLC are among two dozen defendants named in the lawsuit.
"The village is being wiped out by global warming and needs to move urgently before it is destroyed and the residents become global warming refugees."
Damage to Kivalina, a federally recognized tribe, from global warming has been documented in official reports by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and the General Accounting Office."
****
SO-What about it? Do you deny the Alaskan tribe's claims while supporting the Mashpee's?
"ANCHORAGE, Alaska — One of Alaska's most eroded villages wants to revive a lawsuit that claims greenhouse gasses from oil, power and coal companies are to blame for the climate change endangering the tiny community.
Oil giants Exxon Mobil Corp. and BP PLC are among two dozen defendants named in the lawsuit.
"The village is being wiped out by global warming and needs to move urgently before it is destroyed and the residents become global warming refugees."
Damage to Kivalina, a federally recognized tribe, from global warming has been documented in official reports by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and the General Accounting Office."
****
SO-What about it? Do you deny the Alaskan tribe's claims while supporting the Mashpee's?
Ana Paulina [Member] writes:
Of course they would, the LAW favors the Corporations used as a tool of oppression that takes advantage of the private sector.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
On the question of job creation, the Governor and the Secretary need to read the following:
"But a new study of Spain’s renewable energy initiatives has found that creating green jobs actually destroys jobs in other sectors — and most of the time doesn’t lead to permanent employment."
http://blogs.reuters.com/environment/2009/04/07/do-green-jobs-cannibalize-other-jobs/
"But a new study of Spain’s renewable energy initiatives has found that creating green jobs actually destroys jobs in other sectors — and most of the time doesn’t lead to permanent employment."
http://blogs.reuters.com/environment/2009/04/07/do-green-jobs-cannibalize-other-jobs/
bittersweet [Member] writes:
What jobs in other sectors are left?
Housekeeping? Gas attendant? Cashier? Even those you have 50 applicant for each job.
What jobs haven't already been out-sourced for the allmighty BUCK?
Housekeeping? Gas attendant? Cashier? Even those you have 50 applicant for each job.
What jobs haven't already been out-sourced for the allmighty BUCK?
Ludwig II [Member] writes:
Is Ken Salazar THAT dumb??? There is not a verified case of a single Wamp greeting the sun on a frigid, Cape Cod beach in anyone's memory.
Ana Paulina [Member] writes:
The planet can only be an oil donor for so long before it completely collapses folks.
possee [Member] writes:
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20100129/D9DHCO002.html
Bin Laden blasts US for climate change
Jan 29, 6:52 AM (ET)
CAIRO (AP) - Al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden has called in a new audiotape for the world to boycott American goods and the U.S. dollar, blaming the United States and other industrialized countries for global warming.
In the tape, aired in part on Al-Jazeera television Friday, bin Laden warns of the dangers of climate change and says that the way to stop it is to bring "the wheels of the American economy" to a halt.
Bin Laden has joined in your cause..congratulations..
possee
Bin Laden blasts US for climate change
Jan 29, 6:52 AM (ET)
CAIRO (AP) - Al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden has called in a new audiotape for the world to boycott American goods and the U.S. dollar, blaming the United States and other industrialized countries for global warming.
In the tape, aired in part on Al-Jazeera television Friday, bin Laden warns of the dangers of climate change and says that the way to stop it is to bring "the wheels of the American economy" to a halt.
Bin Laden has joined in your cause..congratulations..
possee
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Bin Laden is dead.
Benazir Bhutto said so before she was murdered.
Bin-Laden is the boogey man for anything you righties want to make happen. IE--your claim that man-made pollution is harmless to the environment. IE-- Gloal Warming doesn't exist.
The Bush's and the Bin-Ladens have been in the oil business together for decades.
That's why some people call it Al-CIAda.
Benazir Bhutto said so before she was murdered.
Bin-Laden is the boogey man for anything you righties want to make happen. IE--your claim that man-made pollution is harmless to the environment. IE-- Gloal Warming doesn't exist.
The Bush's and the Bin-Ladens have been in the oil business together for decades.
That's why some people call it Al-CIAda.
ptownbob [Member] writes:
Here's another story you should have reported:
A poll released by the University of Massachusetts Dartmouth's Center for Policy Analysis found that while Massachusetts electric ratepayers generally support wind energy, this support erodes rapidly if wind projects contribute to an increase in electric bills. The poll found that 55% of respondents would not pay more for electricity produced by wind turbines.
http://www.nawindpower.com/naw/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.5237
A poll released by the University of Massachusetts Dartmouth's Center for Policy Analysis found that while Massachusetts electric ratepayers generally support wind energy, this support erodes rapidly if wind projects contribute to an increase in electric bills. The poll found that 55% of respondents would not pay more for electricity produced by wind turbines.
http://www.nawindpower.com/naw/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.5237
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
This jobs question reminds me of a quote from the movie 'OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY' "...And I'll bet the last company around was the one that made the best [goshdarn] buggy whip you ever saw."
Hopefully, 30 years from now, we'll be shutting down the last of the coal plants wondering why it took so long?
Was it the beautiful smoke stacks? The terrific smell? The cancer - asthma - lung infections - birth defects - heavy metals in the fish and live stock?
Oh that's right, it was organizations like SOS that spent millions on propaganda to stop clean power. Just how did we get suckered so bad?
If we'd begun the clean energy progress in earnest back in the 70's, we could have been generating 90% clean energy by 2020.
Sorry children, let this be a lesson; like the 'WHO' said, "..We don't get fooled again."
Hopefully, 30 years from now, we'll be shutting down the last of the coal plants wondering why it took so long?
Was it the beautiful smoke stacks? The terrific smell? The cancer - asthma - lung infections - birth defects - heavy metals in the fish and live stock?
Oh that's right, it was organizations like SOS that spent millions on propaganda to stop clean power. Just how did we get suckered so bad?
If we'd begun the clean energy progress in earnest back in the 70's, we could have been generating 90% clean energy by 2020.
Sorry children, let this be a lesson; like the 'WHO' said, "..We don't get fooled again."
CCToday [Member] writes:
The poll was commissioned by Cape Wind opponents and no reputable media has given it credibility. The push-poll phasing was in the "is it true you've stopped beating your wife" category.
ptownbob [Member] writes:
So....UMass Dartmouth is a taxpayer-supported shill for Cape Wind opponents? Is this part of the conspiracy against Christy Mihos?
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Well, so far, no one has answered my question...The Kavalina tribe claims Global Warming is ruining their community.
Are they lying? Or do they not know what they are talking about?
Are they lying? Or do they not know what they are talking about?
nofreewind [Member] writes:
The last of the coal power plants will be shut down when most of the world's coal resources are depleted, or when an alternative source of energy is discovered that is competitive with coal.
It is unlikely that this can happen in thirty years, or even 300 years.
Wind is not competitive.
It is unlikely that this can happen in thirty years, or even 300 years.
Wind is not competitive.
neil good [Member] writes:
The Kavalina tribe simply did not have a case.
"Judge tosses Kivalana global warming suit"
http://publicnuisancewire.com/stories/210518-judge-tosses-kivalana-global-warming-suit
Oct.19, 2009
SAN FRANCISCO – A U.S. District Court Judge has dismissed a lawsuit filed by an Alaskan native village that targeted Exxon Mobil, alleging the oil company was responsible for global warming.
Earlier this week, Judge Saundra Brown concluded that any issue regarding global warming should be left up to lawmakers and not judges:
"In their Rule 12(b)(1) motions, Defendants contend that Plaintiffs' claims are not justiciable under the political question doctrine, and that Plaintiffs otherwise lack standing under Article III of the United States Constitution. Having read and considered the papers filed in connection with this matter, and being fully informed, the Court hereby grants Defendants' motions to dismiss for lack of jurisdiction."
"Judge tosses Kivalana global warming suit"
http://publicnuisancewire.com/stories/210518-judge-tosses-kivalana-global-warming-suit
Oct.19, 2009
SAN FRANCISCO – A U.S. District Court Judge has dismissed a lawsuit filed by an Alaskan native village that targeted Exxon Mobil, alleging the oil company was responsible for global warming.
Earlier this week, Judge Saundra Brown concluded that any issue regarding global warming should be left up to lawmakers and not judges:
"In their Rule 12(b)(1) motions, Defendants contend that Plaintiffs' claims are not justiciable under the political question doctrine, and that Plaintiffs otherwise lack standing under Article III of the United States Constitution. Having read and considered the papers filed in connection with this matter, and being fully informed, the Court hereby grants Defendants' motions to dismiss for lack of jurisdiction."
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
Cost over time NFW, cost over time, the debate you refuse to have because it proves you wrong about the competitive cost of wind.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Wow--I guess Ana was right..."the LAW favors the Corporations".
So the fact that the tribe blames Exxon and Bp and PLC means nothing.
Take the pollution and stuff it, eh?
Just don't put a windfarm in your Sound huh.
So the fact that the tribe blames Exxon and Bp and PLC means nothing.
Take the pollution and stuff it, eh?
Just don't put a windfarm in your Sound huh.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Which, come to think of it, begs the point....
If all these big soot-spewing plants are harmless, how bad can a windfarm be?
If all these big soot-spewing plants are harmless, how bad can a windfarm be?
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
Wind: the fastest growing energy sector in the world.
Lets see.... how did they all get fooled? All those investors, all those banks, all those local governments who are not allowed to take undue risk with taxpayers money.
How did they trick the Army Corp, the coast guard, the MMS, Otis air force base, the town of Portsmouth RI, [list shortened for space considerations.]
None of them know what NFW does, that if you repeat "wind is a scam" enough, it makes it true.
Boy, we all gonna look silly breathing better air, paying less while NFW chants his mantra.
Wind is a scam.. wind is a scam.
Lets see.... how did they all get fooled? All those investors, all those banks, all those local governments who are not allowed to take undue risk with taxpayers money.
How did they trick the Army Corp, the coast guard, the MMS, Otis air force base, the town of Portsmouth RI, [list shortened for space considerations.]
None of them know what NFW does, that if you repeat "wind is a scam" enough, it makes it true.
Boy, we all gonna look silly breathing better air, paying less while NFW chants his mantra.
Wind is a scam.. wind is a scam.
possee [Member] writes:
Let's party like it's 1999..
Meanwhile, the queen of the elitist Gbobal Warming crowd spends our tax money and millions of gallons of jet fuel..
Taxpayers pay $101,000 for Pelosi's in-flight 'food, booze'
Speaker's trips 'are more about partying than anything else'
Documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act by Judicial Watch, which investigates and prosecutes government corruption, show Pelosi incurred expenses of some $2.1 million for her use of Air Force jets for travel over that time.
2 years only..
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=123472
possee
Meanwhile, the queen of the elitist Gbobal Warming crowd spends our tax money and millions of gallons of jet fuel..
Taxpayers pay $101,000 for Pelosi's in-flight 'food, booze'
Speaker's trips 'are more about partying than anything else'
Documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act by Judicial Watch, which investigates and prosecutes government corruption, show Pelosi incurred expenses of some $2.1 million for her use of Air Force jets for travel over that time.
2 years only..
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=123472
possee
possee [Member] writes:
Pelosi's office could not be reached for comment. The answering machine said the office would be closed until Monday, and the mailbox was full, so no messages could be left.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Judicial Watch is a good group....they are one that really is fair and balanced...And Pelosi should walk the walk if she is going to talk the talk.
So, after they get her for abuse of funds, can we THEN go after Cheney and 9/11?
So, after they get her for abuse of funds, can we THEN go after Cheney and 9/11?
nofreewind [Member] writes:
If anyone is interested in how government policymakers get conned into approving scams, Just lookup what happened with Ethanol.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Let's assume for a moment that there is doubt that wind power is economically feasible going forward. Does that mean that we shouldn't build our first offshore wind farm?
Of course not. Building the first of anything involves, to some degree, stepping into the unknown.
For instance, was it certain that municipal electric facilities would be successful when Edison built the first one? Nope. But I'm sure glad he did. How about the first telephone system and network? Probably not.
Why must we have 100% certainty of success before we build our first offshore wind farm? If we'd always required that in the past we'd still be hunting and gathering!
Numerous offshore wind farms exist in Europe and now in China. No, there's no guarantee that offshore wind will work here. But there's enough experience out there to justify a moderate step into the unknown here with our first offshore wind farm.
Of course not. Building the first of anything involves, to some degree, stepping into the unknown.
For instance, was it certain that municipal electric facilities would be successful when Edison built the first one? Nope. But I'm sure glad he did. How about the first telephone system and network? Probably not.
Why must we have 100% certainty of success before we build our first offshore wind farm? If we'd always required that in the past we'd still be hunting and gathering!
Numerous offshore wind farms exist in Europe and now in China. No, there's no guarantee that offshore wind will work here. But there's enough experience out there to justify a moderate step into the unknown here with our first offshore wind farm.
sparky [Member] writes:
It appears Salazar is showing up @ a pre-arranged media event. I'd rather he appear unannounced to perform his evaluation (assuming this is anything more than a political appearance).
Monponsett [Member] writes:
If Salazar sees his shadow, we get 8 more years of dirty electrical power.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Look who's talking!
You can't get your dam politics out of the way for one second!
How anyone can support pollution over clean energy is beyond me, no matter what you call it!
Maybe Salazar is just plain smart.
Maybe he cares about things like chemical pollution that we are saturated with 24/7.
In fact, why don't you google him and see how he thinks....it might surprise you.
Not everything is politics, and not everything is about money.
It's just plain common sense!
Drive up or down Rt. 6; At exit 8, open your window and breathe in. Then tell me we don't need clean energy.
Or--recall how many beaches get closed every season because they are unhealthy to swim in.
And stop telling people who KNOW BETTER that a soot-filled, water-dirtying oil/coal plant is NOT hazardous to their health!
Kids are drinking lead, for god's sakes!
Oh, but not your kids, is that it?
You can't get your dam politics out of the way for one second!
How anyone can support pollution over clean energy is beyond me, no matter what you call it!
Maybe Salazar is just plain smart.
Maybe he cares about things like chemical pollution that we are saturated with 24/7.
In fact, why don't you google him and see how he thinks....it might surprise you.
Not everything is politics, and not everything is about money.
It's just plain common sense!
Drive up or down Rt. 6; At exit 8, open your window and breathe in. Then tell me we don't need clean energy.
Or--recall how many beaches get closed every season because they are unhealthy to swim in.
And stop telling people who KNOW BETTER that a soot-filled, water-dirtying oil/coal plant is NOT hazardous to their health!
Kids are drinking lead, for god's sakes!
Oh, but not your kids, is that it?
Monponsett [Member] writes:
Why so angry? I just made a groundhog joke.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
monposett,
That was a good one! If Salazar sees his shadow! I hate using those little text message abbreviations but here goes: LOL
That was a good one! If Salazar sees his shadow! I hate using those little text message abbreviations but here goes: LOL
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Not you monponsett...sparky there.
Have to stop watching Repubs on TV--going to blow a fuse.
Angry? Beyond angry...like murderous rage.
of course, I'm harmless as a dove.
Told you Pence was a weasel...his mentor was Tom Delay.
Best way to hide evil is through a "good" front.
and ps; no jobs were created 2000-2008. how did tax cuts for wealthy help the deficit?
WHY do the dems have to ask them about anything?
THEY didn't!!!
yuk yuk and double puke yuk. yes-I'm reverting to childhood...adults are way too gross for me.
Have to stop watching Repubs on TV--going to blow a fuse.
Angry? Beyond angry...like murderous rage.
of course, I'm harmless as a dove.
Told you Pence was a weasel...his mentor was Tom Delay.
Best way to hide evil is through a "good" front.
and ps; no jobs were created 2000-2008. how did tax cuts for wealthy help the deficit?
WHY do the dems have to ask them about anything?
THEY didn't!!!
yuk yuk and double puke yuk. yes-I'm reverting to childhood...adults are way too gross for me.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Good idea to have this televised Obama...now they can't spin it to reflect their agenda.
possee [Member] writes:
'Nobel Peace Prize-winner Barack Obama ups spending on nuclear weapons to even more than George Bush'
By Carol Driver
29th January 2010
Barack Obama has allocated £4.3billion to spend on maintaining the U.S. nuclear weapons stockpile - £370million more than what was budgeted by George Bush.
The budget will also be increased by more than £3.1billion over the next five years.
The announcement comes despite the American President declaring nuclear weapons were the ‘greatest danger’ to U.S. people during in his State of the Union address on Wednesday.
However, Vice President Joe Biden today supported the increase on nuclear weapons maintenance, saying: ‘Even in a time of tough budget decisions, these are investments we must make for our security.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news
I thought Cheney had left the White House
By Carol Driver
29th January 2010
Barack Obama has allocated £4.3billion to spend on maintaining the U.S. nuclear weapons stockpile - £370million more than what was budgeted by George Bush.
The budget will also be increased by more than £3.1billion over the next five years.
The announcement comes despite the American President declaring nuclear weapons were the ‘greatest danger’ to U.S. people during in his State of the Union address on Wednesday.
However, Vice President Joe Biden today supported the increase on nuclear weapons maintenance, saying: ‘Even in a time of tough budget decisions, these are investments we must make for our security.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news
I thought Cheney had left the White House
gonzo [Member] writes:
Keep spinning fellow bloggers, maybe the naive will learn something.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
Thomas Edison and Alaxander Grahm Bell risked their personal fortunes.
The wind industry scammers are risking our tax dollars.
The wind industry scammers are risking our tax dollars.
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
Possee,
Have you been reduced to trolling through the British tabloids to find criticisms of Obama? You’re working overtime!
Today’s lead headline in the Daily mail is:
Revealed: How England soccer captain had an affair with team-mate’s wife
Really solid sources Possee.
Have you been reduced to trolling through the British tabloids to find criticisms of Obama? You’re working overtime!
Today’s lead headline in the Daily mail is:
Revealed: How England soccer captain had an affair with team-mate’s wife
Really solid sources Possee.
dkfalmouth [Member] writes:
NFW,
Do you have the same attitude toward fossil fuel scammers who receive government incentives that dwarf anything contemplated for wind?
I sure hope so.
Do you have the same attitude toward fossil fuel scammers who receive government incentives that dwarf anything contemplated for wind?
I sure hope so.
News-Hen [Member] writes:
Cape Wind's Jim Gordon has already spent over $30 million of his own money, following the rules and getting screwed over by people who want to stop renewable energy projects so they can sell jerks like you every drop of oil until the price in the future is outrageous.
possee [Member] writes:
OPINION JANUARY 29, 2010 The President's Nuclear Vision
'We will spend what is necessary to maintain the safety, security and effectiveness of our weapons.'
'To achieve these goals, our budget devotes $7 billion for maintaining our nuclear-weapons stockpile and complex, and for related efforts. This commitment is $600 million more than Congress approved last year. And over the next five years we intend to boost funding for these important activities by more than $5 billion. Even in a time of tough budget decisions, these are investments we must make for our security.
investments we must make for our security. We are committed to working with Congress to ensure these budget increases are approved.
This investment is long overdue. It will strengthen our ability to recruit, train and retain the skilled people we need to maintain our nuclear capabilities.'
Joe Biden
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704878904575031382215508268.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_sections_opinion
'We will spend what is necessary to maintain the safety, security and effectiveness of our weapons.'
'To achieve these goals, our budget devotes $7 billion for maintaining our nuclear-weapons stockpile and complex, and for related efforts. This commitment is $600 million more than Congress approved last year. And over the next five years we intend to boost funding for these important activities by more than $5 billion. Even in a time of tough budget decisions, these are investments we must make for our security.
investments we must make for our security. We are committed to working with Congress to ensure these budget increases are approved.
This investment is long overdue. It will strengthen our ability to recruit, train and retain the skilled people we need to maintain our nuclear capabilities.'
Joe Biden
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704878904575031382215508268.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_sections_opinion
possee [Member] writes:
dk
Perhaps Joe Biden is lying as well, or is this another non credible source as well?
possee
Perhaps Joe Biden is lying as well, or is this another non credible source as well?
possee
nofreewind [Member] writes:
DK:
I do you have the same attitude toward fossil fuel scammers who receive government incentives that dwarf anything contemplated for wind.
That is why doing it again with wind is wrong.
I do you have the same attitude toward fossil fuel scammers who receive government incentives that dwarf anything contemplated for wind.
That is why doing it again with wind is wrong.
capeconservative [Member] writes:
"Sunrise Greeting Ceremony" sounds like something stolen from HBO's True Blue, where vampires are exposed to the sun by Christian fundamentalists.
Or is this the ceremoney where they all line up and drink Flavor-Aide?
Or is this the ceremoney where they all line up and drink Flavor-Aide?
numah [Member] writes:
Maybe we can grab Osama when he goes to the family Christmas party this year
Walker [Member] writes:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/op-ed-vice-president-joe-biden-todays-wall-street-journal
Is that a solid source?
Is that a solid source?
possee [Member] writes:
Mr Walker.
No source is solid when it reveals the truth ...
Your absence is duly noted..
Perhaps you are one of those who received stimulus money and now are employed as a green job recipient?
possee
No source is solid when it reveals the truth ...
Your absence is duly noted..
Perhaps you are one of those who received stimulus money and now are employed as a green job recipient?
possee
possee [Member] writes:
Mr Walker
Where is the outrage?...
Bush Cheney were the war mongers and now that the 'man' is in office..all war mongering is brilliant.
The current administration has outspent Bush on military ventures and expenditures its 1st year.
Nuclear arsenals are increased and outspending the bush lied people died gang and all is well.
Oh I know..give peace a chance.
possee
p.s.
The CIA is droning in Yemen and Pakistan,killing untold amounts of civilians, KBR, Blackwater, etal have received new contracts..the supposed cabal of Cheney.. yet the anti war , and state controlled media movement is silent..
hmmmm.
Perhaps Cheney is still in charge
shhhh..don't tell anyone.
Where is the outrage?...
Bush Cheney were the war mongers and now that the 'man' is in office..all war mongering is brilliant.
The current administration has outspent Bush on military ventures and expenditures its 1st year.
Nuclear arsenals are increased and outspending the bush lied people died gang and all is well.
Oh I know..give peace a chance.
possee
p.s.
The CIA is droning in Yemen and Pakistan,killing untold amounts of civilians, KBR, Blackwater, etal have received new contracts..the supposed cabal of Cheney.. yet the anti war , and state controlled media movement is silent..
hmmmm.
Perhaps Cheney is still in charge
shhhh..don't tell anyone.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Well, the same could be said about the two of you.
Why aren't you supporting Obama the war monger like you supported Bush the war-monger?
You will have to call yourselfs anti-americans soon.
So where's the chest-thumping flag-waving Obama is great and don't you dare say otherwise?
Why aren't you supporting Obama the war monger like you supported Bush the war-monger?
You will have to call yourselfs anti-americans soon.
So where's the chest-thumping flag-waving Obama is great and don't you dare say otherwise?
bittersweet [Member] writes:
And btw--Biden is a Zionist...I would have thought that would endear him to you.
Walker [Member] writes:
Did I miss anything?
It's all Bush's fault, Republicans are evil idiots, Obama walks on water, Ned's a blogger not a commenter, wind farm yes/wind farm no, and Zippy's got all the answers. Some days I think I'd rather jam a knitting needle in my ear than follow some of this tripe.
I'll jump into the fray periodically on my way to 11-2. [276 days and counting!]
It's all Bush's fault, Republicans are evil idiots, Obama walks on water, Ned's a blogger not a commenter, wind farm yes/wind farm no, and Zippy's got all the answers. Some days I think I'd rather jam a knitting needle in my ear than follow some of this tripe.
I'll jump into the fray periodically on my way to 11-2. [276 days and counting!]
bittersweet [Member] writes:
From the GAO:
Nuclear programs: appropriations totaling $6.2 billion from fiscal year 2002 through fiscal year 2007.
Fossil fuel programs were appropriated $3.1 billion in R&D funding from fiscal year 2002 through fiscal year 2007.
Renewable programs were appropriated $1.4 billion in R&D funding from fiscal year 2002 through fiscal year 2007.
Seems pretty clear who's geting all the money---so what is your complaint? You want to take from renewables and give it to the other two?
***
Yes-believe this if you ever believed anything: Get RID of the republicans or we are doomed.
We are the next Gaza.
Nuclear programs: appropriations totaling $6.2 billion from fiscal year 2002 through fiscal year 2007.
Fossil fuel programs were appropriated $3.1 billion in R&D funding from fiscal year 2002 through fiscal year 2007.
Renewable programs were appropriated $1.4 billion in R&D funding from fiscal year 2002 through fiscal year 2007.
Seems pretty clear who's geting all the money---so what is your complaint? You want to take from renewables and give it to the other two?
***
Yes-believe this if you ever believed anything: Get RID of the republicans or we are doomed.
We are the next Gaza.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Answer the question NFW: Do you oppose oil, gas and coal subsidies like you do wind subsidies?
No, 2 wrongs don't make a right. But if you don't oppose those other subsidies, you have no standing.
No, 2 wrongs don't make a right. But if you don't oppose those other subsidies, you have no standing.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Yeah Peter, that's a solid source. And it lays out a rational justification for increasing expenditure on maintaining our nuclear arsenal: Basically, it makes no sense to have this if we don't keep it operational and safe.
You reference the Wall Street Journal. But Possee references a British tabloid.
You reference the Wall Street Journal. But Possee references a British tabloid.
possee [Member] writes:
Dave Kent
The British tabloid was referenced deliberately as I had also the Wall Street Journal beforehand..how quick you are to repudiate sources when, in fact, they were 100% correct.
Thank you for revealing your bias to state run media only..there is a real world out there..
and, many so called tabloids have broken verifiable news before it hits the msm..
So, in closing, was the tabloid incorrect in their post?
I do my homework..perhaps you should do the same..
possee
The British tabloid was referenced deliberately as I had also the Wall Street Journal beforehand..how quick you are to repudiate sources when, in fact, they were 100% correct.
Thank you for revealing your bias to state run media only..there is a real world out there..
and, many so called tabloids have broken verifiable news before it hits the msm..
So, in closing, was the tabloid incorrect in their post?
I do my homework..perhaps you should do the same..
possee
possee [Member] writes:
Elitists think they know it all, and defend their beliefs verbatim..until the actuality of the news, and facts, creates a defense mode to repudiate the actual facts ..
How convenient..or ,for the likes of Al Gore's agenda, and his like minded minions..the inconvenient truth ensnares.
Keep on commenting..
The rabbit trap is set.
possee
How convenient..or ,for the likes of Al Gore's agenda, and his like minded minions..the inconvenient truth ensnares.
Keep on commenting..
The rabbit trap is set.
possee
bittersweet [Member] writes:
"Elitists think they know it all,'
That's funny coming from someone who's party lost the election, yet still feels they have the right to LORD it over us!
Umm, like Dave says all the time, if you all care SO MUCH about healthcare, seniors, grandkids and jobs....where were you in your ruling the empire?
Giving tax cuts to quadrillionaires!!!!!
Is pollution real or not...that's a simple question even a righty can grasp...if you can get your head out of your patooty long enough!
Only rabbit is the white rabbit leading you down the hole...blue pill or red, YOU decide!
That's funny coming from someone who's party lost the election, yet still feels they have the right to LORD it over us!
Umm, like Dave says all the time, if you all care SO MUCH about healthcare, seniors, grandkids and jobs....where were you in your ruling the empire?
Giving tax cuts to quadrillionaires!!!!!
Is pollution real or not...that's a simple question even a righty can grasp...if you can get your head out of your patooty long enough!
Only rabbit is the white rabbit leading you down the hole...blue pill or red, YOU decide!
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Possee,
The Daily Mail article didn't come close to describing the issues involved in Obama's decision responsibly. It was a typical juicy tabloid take on the issue. You deserved criticism for referencing it.
I presume that you're referring to me as one of the know it all elitists:
Question: Why do you and many people on the Right continue to confuse someone disagreeing with you with that person thinking that he or she knows it all?
When you say something that I disagree with, I disagree. You can do the same to me. When you do that I don't accuse you of "knowing it all". Of course not. You're just disagreeing with me.
If you want to express opinions, possee, you've gotta accept disagreement. And when someone disagrees they're not saying that they know it all. Nope, they're just saying you're wrong. Nothing more.
Why do you confuse those things?
The Daily Mail article didn't come close to describing the issues involved in Obama's decision responsibly. It was a typical juicy tabloid take on the issue. You deserved criticism for referencing it.
I presume that you're referring to me as one of the know it all elitists:
Question: Why do you and many people on the Right continue to confuse someone disagreeing with you with that person thinking that he or she knows it all?
When you say something that I disagree with, I disagree. You can do the same to me. When you do that I don't accuse you of "knowing it all". Of course not. You're just disagreeing with me.
If you want to express opinions, possee, you've gotta accept disagreement. And when someone disagrees they're not saying that they know it all. Nope, they're just saying you're wrong. Nothing more.
Why do you confuse those things?
nofreewind [Member] writes:
DK:
You Asked:
Do you have the same attitude toward fossil fuel scammers who receive government incentives that dwarf anything contemplated for wind?
I responded with:
I do have the same attitude toward fossil fuel scammers who receive government incentives that dwarf anything contemplated for wind. Perhaps my typo leaving the "you" in my response confused you.
Now you say:
Answer the question NFW: Do you oppose oil, gas and coal subsidies like you do wind subsidies?
The answer to your second question is YES.
Furthermore, and more important, I oppose mandates that force the use of wind at ratepayers' expense, which are in addition to taxpayer funded subsidies and continue indefinitely. There are no such mandates for the use of fossil fuel.
You Asked:
Do you have the same attitude toward fossil fuel scammers who receive government incentives that dwarf anything contemplated for wind?
I responded with:
I do have the same attitude toward fossil fuel scammers who receive government incentives that dwarf anything contemplated for wind. Perhaps my typo leaving the "you" in my response confused you.
Now you say:
Answer the question NFW: Do you oppose oil, gas and coal subsidies like you do wind subsidies?
The answer to your second question is YES.
Furthermore, and more important, I oppose mandates that force the use of wind at ratepayers' expense, which are in addition to taxpayer funded subsidies and continue indefinitely. There are no such mandates for the use of fossil fuel.
possee [Member] writes:
crusader just revealed what the current gang has perpetrated..aka Wall Street
had you, like others, even bothered to read my comments..
you'd know that I once supported the Bush aka Gop direction..then..
got my head out of the sand and woke up..
Perhaps you should do the same.
When one realizes we've been lied to and manipulated to follow party lines..
both parties..
then clarity sets in..
Obviously it's not here..
Espousing Savage..who's considered an extremist by both sides of the aisle..
Give up the loyalty and think for your self...
Neither party has our interests as Americans in their agenda..
only power..and control
The left has Obama
The right has Brown
I supported Brown only in deference to the 'in your face' to the party in control..
There is a huge groundswell who repudiate both parties..independents.
the left right paradigm continues daily
Keep drinking the kool aid..
I'll take rum and coke.without the flouride.
possee
had you, like others, even bothered to read my comments..
you'd know that I once supported the Bush aka Gop direction..then..
got my head out of the sand and woke up..
Perhaps you should do the same.
When one realizes we've been lied to and manipulated to follow party lines..
both parties..
then clarity sets in..
Obviously it's not here..
Espousing Savage..who's considered an extremist by both sides of the aisle..
Give up the loyalty and think for your self...
Neither party has our interests as Americans in their agenda..
only power..and control
The left has Obama
The right has Brown
I supported Brown only in deference to the 'in your face' to the party in control..
There is a huge groundswell who repudiate both parties..independents.
the left right paradigm continues daily
Keep drinking the kool aid..
I'll take rum and coke.without the flouride.
possee
bittersweet [Member] writes:
"I supported Brown only in deference to the 'in your face' to the party in control.."
Brown is one of the "In your face" control system.
Clue: TeaBaggers are NOT independent. They have been infiltrated by Fox. Even Bachman quit, because they are For Profit. No surprise..it is after all Dick Armey. DUH! They were charging $550.00 a ticket, and Palin wanted $10,000.00 to speak.
These are the people behind Brown.
Hardly Independent.
And don't you forget--Obama had the Independent vote as well, and IF you BOTHER to watch that little meeting yesterday. (i'm sure c-span will re-run it), you will see who the real independent is...who cares about governing and who knows reality vs rhetoric. You will see, it aint your sainted Republicans.
And as for moi, I was unenrolled, disgusted by them all until Howard "the scream" Dean came along.
That's when I joined the Democratic Party, and Obama is The Man.
He is going to get all my support, as is ANY Democrat fighting this Corporate Total Take-Over by Deception that the Reptiles are engaged in.
This IS a fight. And you are on the wrong side.
Brown is one of the "In your face" control system.
Clue: TeaBaggers are NOT independent. They have been infiltrated by Fox. Even Bachman quit, because they are For Profit. No surprise..it is after all Dick Armey. DUH! They were charging $550.00 a ticket, and Palin wanted $10,000.00 to speak.
These are the people behind Brown.
Hardly Independent.
And don't you forget--Obama had the Independent vote as well, and IF you BOTHER to watch that little meeting yesterday. (i'm sure c-span will re-run it), you will see who the real independent is...who cares about governing and who knows reality vs rhetoric. You will see, it aint your sainted Republicans.
And as for moi, I was unenrolled, disgusted by them all until Howard "the scream" Dean came along.
That's when I joined the Democratic Party, and Obama is The Man.
He is going to get all my support, as is ANY Democrat fighting this Corporate Total Take-Over by Deception that the Reptiles are engaged in.
This IS a fight. And you are on the wrong side.
sparky [Member] writes:
@ bittersweet ... switch to decaf.
How exactly do you come to the conclusion that I support pollution over clean energy?
One way this could play out is that a huge crowd shows up for the first time @ this early AM ceremony, big media coverage, Salazar comes to the conclusion that in fact the ceremony is genuine and widely attended, Cape Wind gets shut down.
How exactly do you come to the conclusion that I support pollution over clean energy?
One way this could play out is that a huge crowd shows up for the first time @ this early AM ceremony, big media coverage, Salazar comes to the conclusion that in fact the ceremony is genuine and widely attended, Cape Wind gets shut down.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFLjWxxq_hs&feature=related
This is what Secretary Salazar and Deval Patrick want to bring to a neighborhood near you.
This is what Secretary Salazar and Deval Patrick want to bring to a neighborhood near you.
crusader [Member] writes:
nofreewind,
Major corporations like GE and Siemens profit by windfarms, so as long as we allow these corporations to occupy the air waves while influencing our politicians with campaign contributions, what do expect will happen? I'm not against wind, or any viable energy alternative, but I would like the facts, too--by independent party willing to review them, is their such an entity?
There have been many new breakthroughs in green energy, but the problem with some, like Geo-thermal energy, is that it takes billions for a company to invest before they see profits.
There are homes on Martha's Vineyard which are using Geo-thermal energy to heat their homes and it is successful, at least for one homeowner. I heard this story during a conference I attended through work. It cost the homeowner a start up price of about $50k. Iceland has been using it for almost 10 years. One major problem is that not all regions can gain access and drilling is costly. I think it's better than windfarms because it's underground.
"Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion"
http://www.nrel.gov/otec/what.html
Major corporations like GE and Siemens profit by windfarms, so as long as we allow these corporations to occupy the air waves while influencing our politicians with campaign contributions, what do expect will happen? I'm not against wind, or any viable energy alternative, but I would like the facts, too--by independent party willing to review them, is their such an entity?
There have been many new breakthroughs in green energy, but the problem with some, like Geo-thermal energy, is that it takes billions for a company to invest before they see profits.
There are homes on Martha's Vineyard which are using Geo-thermal energy to heat their homes and it is successful, at least for one homeowner. I heard this story during a conference I attended through work. It cost the homeowner a start up price of about $50k. Iceland has been using it for almost 10 years. One major problem is that not all regions can gain access and drilling is costly. I think it's better than windfarms because it's underground.
"Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion"
http://www.nrel.gov/otec/what.html
crusader [Member] writes:
It seems that Siemens has got their hand in this GeoThermal as well, since I saw their name come up while doing a search. I don't know much about it, but do know that many people are very interested in this product since it taps into the earth's core and does not impact our environment as windfarms since it's "out of sight- out of mind". Personally, I believe in this product more. We don't have to be a geologist to know how much heat is generated beneath the Earth's crust and can be extracted from the earth's core, it's an endless supply. But, if the investors see that wind is cheaper to install, and the cost to the consumer is more than $50k--what would be their choice? I don't know how they charge for Geo-Thermal, but I've heard it's not that expensive. I'm pretty sure it's the start up of $50k which is the most you have to pay. They are doing it around Harvard Square, so I know there are companies involved with installation. But it's new, so maybe people are waiting to see if it is a good product, in the long run.
crusader [Member] writes:
forgot to add the other site:
http://geo-energy.org/
http://geo-energy.org/
neil good [Member] writes:
Iceland has been using geo-thermal energy far longer than ten years-
"...in November 1930... a school in Reykjavik... was the first building to be heated by geothermal water. Soon thereafter more public buildings in that area of the city as well as about 60 private houses were connected to the geothermal pipeline from Thvottalaugar."
http://www.energy.rochester.edu/is/reyk/history.htm
"...in November 1930... a school in Reykjavik... was the first building to be heated by geothermal water. Soon thereafter more public buildings in that area of the city as well as about 60 private houses were connected to the geothermal pipeline from Thvottalaugar."
http://www.energy.rochester.edu/is/reyk/history.htm
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Yes, they could end the windfarm and it would be a sad day for our future.
All this work and all this energy and TRYING to fight against the machine.....
But the machine always has a trick up its sleeve doesn't it?
And all under the guise of what?
So--I would say to all of you Alliance Supporters who are riding on the coat-tails of the Wampanoags--hoping to get this squashed once and for all:
I expect you to turn your attention next to the Kivalana Tribe of Alaska and help them in their appeal against the big oil companies who have polluted their village out of existance.
And then let's see which area Alliance Supporter Koch will want to pollute next....for his bank account..since there is NO environmental benefit to HIS brand of energy.
And maybe Mihos can give a heads up or down on how wind energy is working for him.
All this work and all this energy and TRYING to fight against the machine.....
But the machine always has a trick up its sleeve doesn't it?
And all under the guise of what?
So--I would say to all of you Alliance Supporters who are riding on the coat-tails of the Wampanoags--hoping to get this squashed once and for all:
I expect you to turn your attention next to the Kivalana Tribe of Alaska and help them in their appeal against the big oil companies who have polluted their village out of existance.
And then let's see which area Alliance Supporter Koch will want to pollute next....for his bank account..since there is NO environmental benefit to HIS brand of energy.
And maybe Mihos can give a heads up or down on how wind energy is working for him.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
As I see it, the fundamental problem we face in the pursuit of viable clean enegy alternatives are Government mandates. Typical of these mandate laws is the Massachusetts Green Communities Act, which mandates that 25% of our electric power will come from renewable sources, mostly wind, by the year 2030. These laws are responsible for creating an artificial market for clean energy at additional cost to the ratepayers. Because it is an artificial market it is highly prone to propaganda and political influence with campaign contributions.
Without mandates the market will collapse.
Without mandates the market will collapse.
crusader [Member] writes:
nofreewind:
Here's more on GeoThermal Energy:
Stay Tuned
Stay tuned to all of the developments in the geothermal field by reading GEA’s newsletter, the Geothermal Energy Weekly. To sign up for the geothermal community’s leading news source, email research@geo-energy.org. Visit GEA’s web site for new reports, news about events, and more information at http://www.geo-energy.org/content/default.aspx.
http://geo-energy.org/pressReleases/Geothermal_Energy_On_Launch_Trajectory_in_2009_-_December_14_2009.pdf
Here's more on GeoThermal Energy:
Stay Tuned
Stay tuned to all of the developments in the geothermal field by reading GEA’s newsletter, the Geothermal Energy Weekly. To sign up for the geothermal community’s leading news source, email research@geo-energy.org. Visit GEA’s web site for new reports, news about events, and more information at http://www.geo-energy.org/content/default.aspx.
http://geo-energy.org/pressReleases/Geothermal_Energy_On_Launch_Trajectory_in_2009_-_December_14_2009.pdf
bittersweet [Member] writes:
There are so many alterantives to oil and gas!!
And Obama said yesterday he's willing to do Nuclear and off shore drilling.
I think the the Green Communities Act is a great thing....otherwise nothing would ever change, due to the "propaganda and political influence with campaign contributions."--
ALL having favored Big Oil and Gas for the last 30 years of our life on the planet.
And Obama said yesterday he's willing to do Nuclear and off shore drilling.
I think the the Green Communities Act is a great thing....otherwise nothing would ever change, due to the "propaganda and political influence with campaign contributions."--
ALL having favored Big Oil and Gas for the last 30 years of our life on the planet.
crusader [Member] writes:
bitter,
I believe we need to diversify our green energy alternatives. There is a major political tug-of-war going on with regard to clean energy. It's all the same thing--profits. Energy will never be free and so it's not always about what is best--it's more about what is the most cost efficient to the corporation while maximizing returns. I hope they push for more GeoThermal energy products than wind because I see it as being less intrusive to our landscape and probably requires less maintainence.
I believe we need to diversify our green energy alternatives. There is a major political tug-of-war going on with regard to clean energy. It's all the same thing--profits. Energy will never be free and so it's not always about what is best--it's more about what is the most cost efficient to the corporation while maximizing returns. I hope they push for more GeoThermal energy products than wind because I see it as being less intrusive to our landscape and probably requires less maintainence.
neil good [Member] writes:
Bitter,
Google and then read "Why Gasoline Is Still King" by Ralph Kinney Bennett.
"...no other fuel delivers so much energy in such a small package with such flexibility, utility, safety, and simplicity."
Google and then read "Why Gasoline Is Still King" by Ralph Kinney Bennett.
"...no other fuel delivers so much energy in such a small package with such flexibility, utility, safety, and simplicity."
capedoggie [Member] writes:
For perhaps the first time in the Dog's existence here on the Cape, I may be able to share a personal experience concerning geothermal heating and cooling.
We had a geothermal system installed about 12 years ago,at a cost of about $13000.00, which included a well,duct work and the water furnace. It works wonderfully in the summer to keep the house at a constant 72 degrees. In the winter,it works much harder to heat the earth's 50 degree water to seventy degrees.The supplemental heat source is electricity, which is,as we all know, is only more costly in Hawaii. Our December electric bill was $464.00, not chump change by any means. Our summer electric bill is about $125.00, as we do not leave the system on in relatively comfortable days.
Thanks,
Dawg
We had a geothermal system installed about 12 years ago,at a cost of about $13000.00, which included a well,duct work and the water furnace. It works wonderfully in the summer to keep the house at a constant 72 degrees. In the winter,it works much harder to heat the earth's 50 degree water to seventy degrees.The supplemental heat source is electricity, which is,as we all know, is only more costly in Hawaii. Our December electric bill was $464.00, not chump change by any means. Our summer electric bill is about $125.00, as we do not leave the system on in relatively comfortable days.
Thanks,
Dawg
bittersweet [Member] writes:
YAY! Commiserate time!
Propane is 360 per gallon, we have two 100 gallon tanks....that's $720.00 per fill, and depending on the temp outside....have had to fill twice so far this season, and the boiler tank broke--$250.00 repair bill. Leak in tank outside--$93.00 repair bill.
I will have to work all year to pay it off. With help, but STILL!
Propane is 360 per gallon, we have two 100 gallon tanks....that's $720.00 per fill, and depending on the temp outside....have had to fill twice so far this season, and the boiler tank broke--$250.00 repair bill. Leak in tank outside--$93.00 repair bill.
I will have to work all year to pay it off. With help, but STILL!
Walker [Member] writes:
bittersweet:
"There are so many alternatives to oil and gas!!
And Obama said yesterday he's willing to do Nuclear and off shore drilling."
Just out of curiosity, other than oil or gas, what's your bff going to be drilling for out there?
"There are so many alternatives to oil and gas!!
And Obama said yesterday he's willing to do Nuclear and off shore drilling."
Just out of curiosity, other than oil or gas, what's your bff going to be drilling for out there?
bittersweet [Member] writes:
They'll be digging for dinasour bones so they can study the dna and find out what makes Republicans tick.
Other than that...just what do you think they'll be drilling for?
But at least along with it, we can develop other technologies...share the knowledge and the wealth with the rest of the 90% of citizens who have been left out in the cold for the benefit of quadrillionaire FODicks.
-Join the 21st century with the rest of the world.
And nuclear I don't agree with at all....but then it's not all about ME, is it? You should try to remember that once in a while yourself...and send a memo to your ridiculous righty-wack-job-cry-baby-martyrs too.
And tell them to practice what they preach..since they enjoy preaching so much.
The tongue wags, but the action lags.
Other than that...just what do you think they'll be drilling for?
But at least along with it, we can develop other technologies...share the knowledge and the wealth with the rest of the 90% of citizens who have been left out in the cold for the benefit of quadrillionaire FODicks.
-Join the 21st century with the rest of the world.
And nuclear I don't agree with at all....but then it's not all about ME, is it? You should try to remember that once in a while yourself...and send a memo to your ridiculous righty-wack-job-cry-baby-martyrs too.
And tell them to practice what they preach..since they enjoy preaching so much.
The tongue wags, but the action lags.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
"China Leading Race For Clean Energy
As China takes the lead on wind turbines, and solar panels, President Obama is calling for American industry to step up."
Good going dinasaurs....SIGH.
All this obstruction and stupid Glenn Beck histrionics to remove the green czar.
All this big money you can't bear to part with.
All this endless greed and selfishness.....
Damn you dinasaurs!!!
By KEITH BRADSHER
Published: January 30, 2010
As China takes the lead on wind turbines, and solar panels, President Obama is calling for American industry to step up."
Good going dinasaurs....SIGH.
All this obstruction and stupid Glenn Beck histrionics to remove the green czar.
All this big money you can't bear to part with.
All this endless greed and selfishness.....
Damn you dinasaurs!!!
By KEITH BRADSHER
Published: January 30, 2010
bittersweet [Member] writes:
opppps--ahahha..he didn't write that dinasaur part!
bittersweet [Member] writes:
here's a picture of you Walker:
"Dinosaurs Unleashed on Oxford Street, London, an animatronic dinosaur experience"
and i know---blog-hogging! no more!!
"Dinosaurs Unleashed on Oxford Street, London, an animatronic dinosaur experience"
and i know---blog-hogging! no more!!
Ana Paulina [Member] writes:
"The IEA acts as a policy adviser to its member states, but also works with non-member countries, especially China, India and Russia."
Ana Paulina [Member] writes:
2020 vision-The IEA puts a date on peak oil production- The Economist
Walker [Member] writes:
So much anger bitter, have you ever considered counseling?
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
If you want to heat your home with clean energy, 1st have it insulated & a tight envelope (most bang for your buck), with many homes that used toxic materials in construction this also means having an air x-changer that pulls in fresh air, heating it with the warm air leaving, a good one will have minimum heat loss.
Until you do this ground source heat pumps or Solar thermal panels will not be effective in providing heat.
Both heating methods require radiant floor heating to be effective(instead of just burning more fuel). Anyone who has ever had radiant floor, knows it's superior to baseboard heating.
If you build a highly efficient home, the cost is estimated to be $8,100 more than a standard home (2,700 ft2), about $503 more each year, with a savings of $1,360 a year. With utility power increasing in cost about 10% each year the savings really add up over time.
Like I keep saying (& NFW refuses to discuss) cost of energy over time, efficiency & renewables offer a far better deal than energy as usual. With all the benifits of making us more independent & preventing pollution.
Until you do this ground source heat pumps or Solar thermal panels will not be effective in providing heat.
Both heating methods require radiant floor heating to be effective(instead of just burning more fuel). Anyone who has ever had radiant floor, knows it's superior to baseboard heating.
If you build a highly efficient home, the cost is estimated to be $8,100 more than a standard home (2,700 ft2), about $503 more each year, with a savings of $1,360 a year. With utility power increasing in cost about 10% each year the savings really add up over time.
Like I keep saying (& NFW refuses to discuss) cost of energy over time, efficiency & renewables offer a far better deal than energy as usual. With all the benifits of making us more independent & preventing pollution.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
China would more than welcome selling us 70,000 wind turbines in exchange for the coal we refuse to use.
The result will put us in the poor house and make Chana rich
The result will put us in the poor house and make Chana rich
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
I don't think that anyone would consider buying our turbines in China a good thing.
So, let's help kick start our own wind industry with Cape Wind and to build our own turbines.
As I mentioned before, it's no coincidence that the largest turbine manufacturer in the world, that employees tens of thousands of people, is in Denmark.
So, let's help kick start our own wind industry with Cape Wind and to build our own turbines.
As I mentioned before, it's no coincidence that the largest turbine manufacturer in the world, that employees tens of thousands of people, is in Denmark.
j. madden [Member] writes:
DK: Re: "I don't think that anyone would consider buying our turbines in China a good thing." This from a post of mine on November 8, 2009:
In response to: Wampanoag challenges Boston Globe Editorial
Carl: But the Chinese are already IN. The Chinese are building our "windfarms". See links below listed from earlier posts.
Where is GE? A big wind farm in Texas will be built by China. See this article from the October 30 WSJ which outlines the project. http://tinyurl.com/ygrp7au
This link takes you to the Chinese power company that moved GE to the sidelines in this Texas deal: http://www.apowerenergy.com/
The U.S. company, based in Austin, in partnership with the Chinese power company, A-power, will use 240 wind turbines and is at this link: http://www.cielowind.com/
And where is GE? Here are the scraps: In March 2009, A-Power entered into an agreement to establish a Joint Venture partnership with GE Drivetrain Technologies to produce wind turbine gearboxes in Shenyang.
This is about wind turbines GE is not supplying. Sigh.
In response to: Wampanoag challenges Boston Globe Editorial
Carl: But the Chinese are already IN. The Chinese are building our "windfarms". See links below listed from earlier posts.
Where is GE? A big wind farm in Texas will be built by China. See this article from the October 30 WSJ which outlines the project. http://tinyurl.com/ygrp7au
This link takes you to the Chinese power company that moved GE to the sidelines in this Texas deal: http://www.apowerenergy.com/
The U.S. company, based in Austin, in partnership with the Chinese power company, A-power, will use 240 wind turbines and is at this link: http://www.cielowind.com/
And where is GE? Here are the scraps: In March 2009, A-Power entered into an agreement to establish a Joint Venture partnership with GE Drivetrain Technologies to produce wind turbine gearboxes in Shenyang.
This is about wind turbines GE is not supplying. Sigh.
neil good [Member] writes:
And Dave, let's not forget what Ditlev Engel, the head of that Danish wind tubine company Vestas, had to say about Massachusetts and Cape Wind in his sit-down with a Boston Globe reporter back in September of 2008.
He said-
"I am really wondering why anybody wants to put them up offshore because it's twice the price. So just as an outsider, I am just scratching my head saying, "Why?"
Do you think Ditlev Engel falls in the "solid source" category? I mean- do you think he is well informed about where wind turbines should, or should not, be located?
Just wondering.
He said-
"I am really wondering why anybody wants to put them up offshore because it's twice the price. So just as an outsider, I am just scratching my head saying, "Why?"
Do you think Ditlev Engel falls in the "solid source" category? I mean- do you think he is well informed about where wind turbines should, or should not, be located?
Just wondering.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Sure Neil. But we do things differently here in the U.S. Denmark subsidizes things incredibly.
Here, renewable projects receive subsidy - but much less than in Denmark - and then they have to compete.
Some say that CW's costs will be double the market price for electricity. Of course, they do this by misusing Appendix F of the MMS DEIS. But let's say that this is right. Well, then Cape Wind won't sell any power. Heck, if it can't offer reasonable prices to utilities in advance it won't win any PPAs and it won't even be built.
This highlights one of the major differences between the U.S. and Denmark. In Denmark by law ALL WIND POWER MUST BE PURCHASED. There's no market competition at all.
The point: In this country, the market makes the decision. (an imperfect market because of the subsidies).
If Mr. Engel is correct then the market will kill Cape Wind before it's built.
By the way, the proof will come soon in the National Grid negotiations.
Here, renewable projects receive subsidy - but much less than in Denmark - and then they have to compete.
Some say that CW's costs will be double the market price for electricity. Of course, they do this by misusing Appendix F of the MMS DEIS. But let's say that this is right. Well, then Cape Wind won't sell any power. Heck, if it can't offer reasonable prices to utilities in advance it won't win any PPAs and it won't even be built.
This highlights one of the major differences between the U.S. and Denmark. In Denmark by law ALL WIND POWER MUST BE PURCHASED. There's no market competition at all.
The point: In this country, the market makes the decision. (an imperfect market because of the subsidies).
If Mr. Engel is correct then the market will kill Cape Wind before it's built.
By the way, the proof will come soon in the National Grid negotiations.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Neil,
To understand U.S. renewable energy, let’s use an example. Let’s say you’re starting a company that builds bikes identical to those of your competitors but:
1. For some reason, you get extra gov’t subsidy: $25/bike
2. Your manufacturing costs are twice those of your competition
Let’s say your competition’s manufacturing cost is $100 & they sell the bikes for $200. Your numbers are: Manufacturing cost of $200 less $25 subsidy = $175 end cost.
Can you sell your high cost bikes for more than $200? No. They’re the same as the competition. What will happen to your company? You probably won’t go into business. If you do, you’ll fail rapidly.
But 1 thing you cannot do: Make people pay more for your bikes. They can buy them elsewhere for $200.
If CW’s costs are twice those of fossil fuel plants it won’t sell its power. Subsidies will help, but not nearly enough to cover double costs. In Denmark, they cover whatever costs wind power incurs &, by law, all wind power is bought. Not here. CW won’t be built if it has double costs. The market will see to that.
To understand U.S. renewable energy, let’s use an example. Let’s say you’re starting a company that builds bikes identical to those of your competitors but:
1. For some reason, you get extra gov’t subsidy: $25/bike
2. Your manufacturing costs are twice those of your competition
Let’s say your competition’s manufacturing cost is $100 & they sell the bikes for $200. Your numbers are: Manufacturing cost of $200 less $25 subsidy = $175 end cost.
Can you sell your high cost bikes for more than $200? No. They’re the same as the competition. What will happen to your company? You probably won’t go into business. If you do, you’ll fail rapidly.
But 1 thing you cannot do: Make people pay more for your bikes. They can buy them elsewhere for $200.
If CW’s costs are twice those of fossil fuel plants it won’t sell its power. Subsidies will help, but not nearly enough to cover double costs. In Denmark, they cover whatever costs wind power incurs &, by law, all wind power is bought. Not here. CW won’t be built if it has double costs. The market will see to that.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Why are they crying about subsidies? Don't oil gas and nuclear get all of ours? And haven't we been FORCED to use them as they keep all the alternatives out of the market? Who killed the Electric Car?
Give me a break!
And it's not only me that needs counseling Walker..it's the whole country.
We have lost our way, and our illness has ruined many many many a life.
We've been damaged by an unhealthy philosophy, foisted upon us by people who can't think straight.
But that time has come to an end.
Time for healing, and bringing that sad awful era to an end.
Onward and upward America---it's not going to be easy, or fast. One step at a time...just KNOW the wack-jobs when you see them. And PNAC by any other name is still PNAC....we're watching you.
You don't destroy this country again.
Clean energy. Clean jobs. Gvt oversight so we don't get screwed. No laizze-faire economy!!!
Give me a break!
And it's not only me that needs counseling Walker..it's the whole country.
We have lost our way, and our illness has ruined many many many a life.
We've been damaged by an unhealthy philosophy, foisted upon us by people who can't think straight.
But that time has come to an end.
Time for healing, and bringing that sad awful era to an end.
Onward and upward America---it's not going to be easy, or fast. One step at a time...just KNOW the wack-jobs when you see them. And PNAC by any other name is still PNAC....we're watching you.
You don't destroy this country again.
Clean energy. Clean jobs. Gvt oversight so we don't get screwed. No laizze-faire economy!!!
nofreewind [Member] writes:
The bikes will be sold because, in addition to the subsidies, the government passed a law mandating that all bike wholesale distributers' sales must include 25% from the expensive subsidized bike manufacturer. The extra cost can be spread as a cost of business and used to raise the price of all bikes sold.
This is exactly what electricity distributers like Nstar, and National Grid are forced to do by the Massachusetts Green Communities Act. The high cost of wind energy will show up in our electric bills.
This is exactly what electricity distributers like Nstar, and National Grid are forced to do by the Massachusetts Green Communities Act. The high cost of wind energy will show up in our electric bills.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
"Put the Republicans in charge of the economy, and it's just a matter of when and how bad the meltdown is going to be. They talk a lot about some mythical "free market," but of course the last thing they want is a truly free market.
**It's government's job to pave the way for, and grind into dust anyone who opposes, the free expression of their limitless greed.**
This is exactly what we have lived through in regards to energy.
And now you cry about subsidies...what a crock.
**It's government's job to pave the way for, and grind into dust anyone who opposes, the free expression of their limitless greed.**
This is exactly what we have lived through in regards to energy.
And now you cry about subsidies...what a crock.
neil good [Member] writes:
Subsidies? Look for this editorial from the WSJ-
"Wind ($23.37) v. Gas (25 Cents)"
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121055427930584069.html
"....An even better way to tell the story is by how much taxpayer money is dispensed per unit of energy, so the costs are standardized. For electricity generation, the U.S. Energy Information Administration concludes that solar energy is subsidized to the tune of $24.34 per megawatt hour, wind $23.37 and "clean coal" $29.81. By contrast, normal coal receives 44 cents, natural gas a mere quarter, hydroelectric about 67 cents and nuclear power $1.59."
"The wind and solar lobbies are currently moaning that they don't get their fair share of the subsidy pie... But wind and solar have been on the subsidy take for years, and they still account for less than 1% of electric generation.... All of this shows that there is a reason fossil fuels continue to dominate: They are extremely cost-effective. That's a reality to keep in mind the next time you hear a politician talk about creating millions of "green jobs." Those jobs won't come cheap"
"Wind ($23.37) v. Gas (25 Cents)"
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121055427930584069.html
"....An even better way to tell the story is by how much taxpayer money is dispensed per unit of energy, so the costs are standardized. For electricity generation, the U.S. Energy Information Administration concludes that solar energy is subsidized to the tune of $24.34 per megawatt hour, wind $23.37 and "clean coal" $29.81. By contrast, normal coal receives 44 cents, natural gas a mere quarter, hydroelectric about 67 cents and nuclear power $1.59."
"The wind and solar lobbies are currently moaning that they don't get their fair share of the subsidy pie... But wind and solar have been on the subsidy take for years, and they still account for less than 1% of electric generation.... All of this shows that there is a reason fossil fuels continue to dominate: They are extremely cost-effective. That's a reality to keep in mind the next time you hear a politician talk about creating millions of "green jobs." Those jobs won't come cheap"
nofreewind [Member] writes:
Definitions:
Subsidy - a grant by a government to a private person or company to assist an enterprise deemed advantageous to the public
Mandate -: an authoritative command.
It’s the Mandate that forces expensive wind energy on an unsuspecting puplic.
Subsidy - a grant by a government to a private person or company to assist an enterprise deemed advantageous to the public
Mandate -: an authoritative command.
It’s the Mandate that forces expensive wind energy on an unsuspecting puplic.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Cost effective?
What about health-effective?
Fossil fuels are extememly damaging to people's health. At least those who have to live around the places where they are processed.
Not to mention the environment of the planet we live on. You know, OTHER life forms besides republicans.
"That's a reality to keep in mind the next time you hear a politician talk about creating millions of "green jobs." Those jobs won't come cheap"
How come you don't care that human lives come so cheap?
What's the cost to human lives and the environment with your "cheap" coal?
And if it's so cheap, why the hell is the cost to consumers so high?
What about health-effective?
Fossil fuels are extememly damaging to people's health. At least those who have to live around the places where they are processed.
Not to mention the environment of the planet we live on. You know, OTHER life forms besides republicans.
"That's a reality to keep in mind the next time you hear a politician talk about creating millions of "green jobs." Those jobs won't come cheap"
How come you don't care that human lives come so cheap?
What's the cost to human lives and the environment with your "cheap" coal?
And if it's so cheap, why the hell is the cost to consumers so high?
nofreewind [Member] writes:
Whatever coal we are forced not to burn will be shipped to China. They will burn it without Scrubbers, and other pollution controls.
Bottom line:
Nobody’s health will be improved, Nobody’s. In fact the way China burns coal, in part to make our wind turbines, will increase the incidence of health problems throughout the world.
The most responsible place to burn coal is right here in the USA.
Bottom line:
Nobody’s health will be improved, Nobody’s. In fact the way China burns coal, in part to make our wind turbines, will increase the incidence of health problems throughout the world.
The most responsible place to burn coal is right here in the USA.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Neil,
How refreshing: Someone who actually backups up their points of view with substance.
That article definitely provides some valuable comparisons in subsidy levels.
One way of responding would be to say: It's OK to give those high levels of subsidy as long as the country gets a bunch of benefit in return: Cleaner air, less reliance upon foreign fossil fuel, stable energy prices, etc.
But the article also makes the point that high subsidies have not resulted in much renewable energy over the past decade which implies that renewable energy's time is just not here yet and that we're throwing money down a rat hole.
But, in my opinion, none of this means that we shouldn't give our first offshore wind farm a try. No matter what, we'll learn plenty from it (even if we learn from its failure).
That's a good article though, Neil. I'll have to think about what it says. Thanks.
How refreshing: Someone who actually backups up their points of view with substance.
That article definitely provides some valuable comparisons in subsidy levels.
One way of responding would be to say: It's OK to give those high levels of subsidy as long as the country gets a bunch of benefit in return: Cleaner air, less reliance upon foreign fossil fuel, stable energy prices, etc.
But the article also makes the point that high subsidies have not resulted in much renewable energy over the past decade which implies that renewable energy's time is just not here yet and that we're throwing money down a rat hole.
But, in my opinion, none of this means that we shouldn't give our first offshore wind farm a try. No matter what, we'll learn plenty from it (even if we learn from its failure).
That's a good article though, Neil. I'll have to think about what it says. Thanks.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
Ther is no good reason to repeat the mistakes of others.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columns/OpEd-Contributor/Green-jobs-America-cant-afford-78364867.html
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columns/OpEd-Contributor/Green-jobs-America-cant-afford-78364867.html
dolphin [Member] writes:
Dave...please go back to the Brown debate. You are are out of your league on wind factories.
Your comment..."(even if we learn from its failure)."
Destroy Nantucket Sound on a "wish and a prayer"?
Your comment..."(even if we learn from its failure)."
Destroy Nantucket Sound on a "wish and a prayer"?
bittersweet [Member] writes:
"Ther is no good reason to repeat the mistakes of others."
We (not me) voted for Bush twice, what's your point?
You are hardly one to talk about repeating mistakes!
And please..why if coal is so cheap is the price to me so high?
Personally,I would gladly pay more for wind.
And my opinion is that it won't ruin the Sound at all.
So-how does that make you right and me wrong?
And if you do manage to kill this, then you dam well better lend your support to any and all other movements who oppose "industrializing" their little area of priviledge.
And give up your dam hummers and yachts and mcmansions too eh?
Or be willing to pay a price for it, not just shuffle it off to others.
It will not destroy nanatucket Sound. I think it will make it more beautiful.
It's not a factorey, it's a farm. Exxon mobil is a factory.
We (not me) voted for Bush twice, what's your point?
You are hardly one to talk about repeating mistakes!
And please..why if coal is so cheap is the price to me so high?
Personally,I would gladly pay more for wind.
And my opinion is that it won't ruin the Sound at all.
So-how does that make you right and me wrong?
And if you do manage to kill this, then you dam well better lend your support to any and all other movements who oppose "industrializing" their little area of priviledge.
And give up your dam hummers and yachts and mcmansions too eh?
Or be willing to pay a price for it, not just shuffle it off to others.
It will not destroy nanatucket Sound. I think it will make it more beautiful.
It's not a factorey, it's a farm. Exxon mobil is a factory.
dolphin [Member] writes:
bitter...your thought..."It will not destroy nanatucket Sound. I think it will make it more beautiful. It's not a factorey, it's a farm."
Your spelling mirrors Ned's painting.
Your spelling mirrors Ned's painting.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
"Personally,I would gladly pay more for wind.
And my opinion is that it won't ruin the Sound at all.
So-how does that make you right and me wrong?"
You are not wrong bittersweet. Only those who believe the free wind will decrease the cost of electricity and save the planet from Global Warming are wrong.
And my opinion is that it won't ruin the Sound at all.
So-how does that make you right and me wrong?"
You are not wrong bittersweet. Only those who believe the free wind will decrease the cost of electricity and save the planet from Global Warming are wrong.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
I know..hahahaha nanatucket Sound. What is it, for gramma's? I need to take more time and care--clean up the hygiene.(is that spelled right?)
And no one is saying the windfarm will save the planet--but it's part of a new direction we need to take to begin.
Can you get away from the rhetoric, and admit that pollution exists and is a problem? Global Warming or not.
And please tell me why you respect the Wampanoag's spiritual heritage claims, but poo poo the Kivalina's charge that the oil companies have destroyed their environment?
And honestly---do you think if we keep going on the same path we are going, that the cost of electricity will come down for us?
Puleeeese. The oil companies care not one whit for human beings.THAT should be patently obvious. We even read the book A Civil Action in a class once..you know, where R.J. Grace was poisoning people, and did everything in their power to escape responsability?
And of course Enron--hearing those two young men on the phone, LAUGHING about how they had swindled old people out of their pensions! Laughing!
Green,Clean and Mean-it's time
And no one is saying the windfarm will save the planet--but it's part of a new direction we need to take to begin.
Can you get away from the rhetoric, and admit that pollution exists and is a problem? Global Warming or not.
And please tell me why you respect the Wampanoag's spiritual heritage claims, but poo poo the Kivalina's charge that the oil companies have destroyed their environment?
And honestly---do you think if we keep going on the same path we are going, that the cost of electricity will come down for us?
Puleeeese. The oil companies care not one whit for human beings.THAT should be patently obvious. We even read the book A Civil Action in a class once..you know, where R.J. Grace was poisoning people, and did everything in their power to escape responsability?
And of course Enron--hearing those two young men on the phone, LAUGHING about how they had swindled old people out of their pensions! Laughing!
Green,Clean and Mean-it's time
bittersweet [Member] writes:
The statement about R.J. Grace is my opinion only.
crusader [Member] writes:
bitter,
You are right, it happened just a few towns over from me. Children died of leukemia because of the highly toxic carcinogens which were being dumped into a river next to one of their plants. Great movie, btw, starring John Travolta who spent every last dime he had personally to win that case.
There is a very long list of co-polluters but you know how it works? They play the major donor card to many "worthy causes", and if things get bad enough, they are forced to pay a fine or two, but compared to the billions they made over the past century?
Word out about green energy is that it will be very expensive and new companies (yes, some who have been in oil and gas for decades) and old are still sorting out their options. I'm certain that the housing bubble has dampened the spirits of many anxious investor. Personally, I don't think a windfarm on the sound will look appealing. Someone had an idea about putting them on barges so they can be moved around and taken off view of the bay.
Have a good one bitter! Don't let the crusty recliners get you down.
You are right, it happened just a few towns over from me. Children died of leukemia because of the highly toxic carcinogens which were being dumped into a river next to one of their plants. Great movie, btw, starring John Travolta who spent every last dime he had personally to win that case.
There is a very long list of co-polluters but you know how it works? They play the major donor card to many "worthy causes", and if things get bad enough, they are forced to pay a fine or two, but compared to the billions they made over the past century?
Word out about green energy is that it will be very expensive and new companies (yes, some who have been in oil and gas for decades) and old are still sorting out their options. I'm certain that the housing bubble has dampened the spirits of many anxious investor. Personally, I don't think a windfarm on the sound will look appealing. Someone had an idea about putting them on barges so they can be moved around and taken off view of the bay.
Have a good one bitter! Don't let the crusty recliners get you down.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
Here is a lesson from Germany:
"In conclusion, government policy has failed to harness the market incentives
needed to ensure a viable and cost-effective introduction of renewable energies into
Germany’s energy portfolio. To the contrary, Germany’s principal mechanism of
supporting renewable technologies through feed-in tariffs imposes high costs without
any of the alleged positive impacts on emissions reductions, employment, energy
security, or technological innovation. Policymakers should thus scrutinize Germany’s
experience, including in the US, where there are currently nearly 400 federal
and state programs in place that provide financial incentives for renewable
energy."
http://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/germany/Germany_Study_-_FINAL.pdf
"In conclusion, government policy has failed to harness the market incentives
needed to ensure a viable and cost-effective introduction of renewable energies into
Germany’s energy portfolio. To the contrary, Germany’s principal mechanism of
supporting renewable technologies through feed-in tariffs imposes high costs without
any of the alleged positive impacts on emissions reductions, employment, energy
security, or technological innovation. Policymakers should thus scrutinize Germany’s
experience, including in the US, where there are currently nearly 400 federal
and state programs in place that provide financial incentives for renewable
energy."
http://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/germany/Germany_Study_-_FINAL.pdf
crusader [Member] writes:
bitter,
In case you are interested, all you have to do is google WR Grace and other stories will surface, but here is more about the case in Woburn:
"The defendants were represented by two old-money Boston firms. If A Civil Action were a novel, the flashy young attorney defending the downtrodden and victimized would win a huge damage award while the toxic polluters would learn to rue the day they dumped illegally. But A Civil Action is not a novel. Rather than manufacturing a happy ending, Jonathan Harr tells the tale of a "black hole" of litigation that left Schlictmann and his partners bankrupt and their firm destroyed. The Woburn families gained little to show for their years of agony and their lost children. The defendants, Beatrice and Grace, remain enormous multinational corporations, now with valuable experience litigating toxic tort cases. The civil suit that was to teach corporate America a lesson instead serves as a cautionary tale to any lawyer or plaintiff considering a toxic tort action".
"WR Grace Reaches $140 Million Settlement in Zonolite Insulation Class Action"
In case you are interested, all you have to do is google WR Grace and other stories will surface, but here is more about the case in Woburn:
"The defendants were represented by two old-money Boston firms. If A Civil Action were a novel, the flashy young attorney defending the downtrodden and victimized would win a huge damage award while the toxic polluters would learn to rue the day they dumped illegally. But A Civil Action is not a novel. Rather than manufacturing a happy ending, Jonathan Harr tells the tale of a "black hole" of litigation that left Schlictmann and his partners bankrupt and their firm destroyed. The Woburn families gained little to show for their years of agony and their lost children. The defendants, Beatrice and Grace, remain enormous multinational corporations, now with valuable experience litigating toxic tort cases. The civil suit that was to teach corporate America a lesson instead serves as a cautionary tale to any lawyer or plaintiff considering a toxic tort action".
"WR Grace Reaches $140 Million Settlement in Zonolite Insulation Class Action"
nofreewind [Member] writes:
And from Denmark:
"Which leads to a final thought: If wind power is everything that proponents say it is, then why can’t it exist in the marketplace without government subsidies, government mandates, government tax credits, guaranteed market share in the form of government enforced feed-in tariffs, and backup generation from more reliable energy sources such as hydropower or natural gas?"
http://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/2009/09/17/wind-lobby-all-spun-up-about-danish-case-study/#comments
Following the footsteps to expensive failure is stupid.
"Which leads to a final thought: If wind power is everything that proponents say it is, then why can’t it exist in the marketplace without government subsidies, government mandates, government tax credits, guaranteed market share in the form of government enforced feed-in tariffs, and backup generation from more reliable energy sources such as hydropower or natural gas?"
http://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/2009/09/17/wind-lobby-all-spun-up-about-danish-case-study/#comments
Following the footsteps to expensive failure is stupid.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Becaaauuse:
"It's government's job to pave the way for, and grind into dust anyone who opposes, the free expression of their limitless greed." !!
Big oil has had a stranglehold for centuries. What happened to Tesla?...omg-FREE energy! Imagine that! Imagine the $$$ lost for those who have us on a leash!!
Sorry-but you're going to have to come up with a better defense than "the gvt. will make me do it." They already do.
If I have no money--I get no heat.
Who's brilliant idea was that?
Who supports it with laws?
It's no benefit to me the people, but SURE is to they the corporation.
Gvt. should be there to protect us from corporations, not help them chain us in!
"It's government's job to pave the way for, and grind into dust anyone who opposes, the free expression of their limitless greed." !!
Big oil has had a stranglehold for centuries. What happened to Tesla?...omg-FREE energy! Imagine that! Imagine the $$$ lost for those who have us on a leash!!
Sorry-but you're going to have to come up with a better defense than "the gvt. will make me do it." They already do.
If I have no money--I get no heat.
Who's brilliant idea was that?
Who supports it with laws?
It's no benefit to me the people, but SURE is to they the corporation.
Gvt. should be there to protect us from corporations, not help them chain us in!
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
Nofreewind, you are the only one I've ever read saying the "wind is free" as an absurd statement to try to make your case that wind supporters are full of it.
I my self have stated many times that wind has no fuel costs, but it is not the same thing as claiming "wind is free".
You repeatedly use these disjointed lines of reasoning to make your flawed points.
Dave Kent repeatedly deconstructs your statements to lay bare your faulty reasoning about how the cost of wind energy will effect our collective energy costs, but your tenuous grasp on reality will allow no facts outside of your shill playbook.
Dave has the patience of a saint to talk you through a complex system you repeatedly refuse to grasp & desperately seek to distort.
Maybe the poor air quality has deprived you of the ability to make sense of it all.
The good news is that soon a windfarm will be offsetting those pollutants that are most likely affecting your judgement.
I won't give up on you NFW, there is hope!
Bless you!
I my self have stated many times that wind has no fuel costs, but it is not the same thing as claiming "wind is free".
You repeatedly use these disjointed lines of reasoning to make your flawed points.
Dave Kent repeatedly deconstructs your statements to lay bare your faulty reasoning about how the cost of wind energy will effect our collective energy costs, but your tenuous grasp on reality will allow no facts outside of your shill playbook.
Dave has the patience of a saint to talk you through a complex system you repeatedly refuse to grasp & desperately seek to distort.
Maybe the poor air quality has deprived you of the ability to make sense of it all.
The good news is that soon a windfarm will be offsetting those pollutants that are most likely affecting your judgement.
I won't give up on you NFW, there is hope!
Bless you!
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Carl,
You're right: It's hard to debate NFW in 1100 words when he's so all or nothing. This is indeed a complex thing.
I'll say this: Did you see the WSJ article from Neil Good that described a government study from 2007 that puts federal subsidy for wind power at about $24/MWh? That is high when you consider that the market rate for power is around $85/MWh today.
And before NFW lectures me on mandate vs. subsidy he's right: State regulations add more support for Wind. Of course, I'd like to hear him explain HOW those mandates increase cost (they do, I'd just like to hear it from him).
This article has given me pause. Are we getting a bang for the buck from all of this subsidy? Is it producing a lot of wind power? (Of course, Wind is the fastest growing power source).
I have no problem expending significant resources to support a new energy source IF we'll get the payoff in the future. But there is a bit IF there.
Now, I've listened to Neil and given credence to the other side of the argument. Will that elicit reasonable, balanced input from NFW?
You're right: It's hard to debate NFW in 1100 words when he's so all or nothing. This is indeed a complex thing.
I'll say this: Did you see the WSJ article from Neil Good that described a government study from 2007 that puts federal subsidy for wind power at about $24/MWh? That is high when you consider that the market rate for power is around $85/MWh today.
And before NFW lectures me on mandate vs. subsidy he's right: State regulations add more support for Wind. Of course, I'd like to hear him explain HOW those mandates increase cost (they do, I'd just like to hear it from him).
This article has given me pause. Are we getting a bang for the buck from all of this subsidy? Is it producing a lot of wind power? (Of course, Wind is the fastest growing power source).
I have no problem expending significant resources to support a new energy source IF we'll get the payoff in the future. But there is a bit IF there.
Now, I've listened to Neil and given credence to the other side of the argument. Will that elicit reasonable, balanced input from NFW?
dolphin [Member] writes:
Carl...your thought "I won't give up on you NFW, there is hope!
Bless you!"
Are you suggesting religion has a say in this debate? And that the Mashpee deserve a hearing?
Bless you!"
Are you suggesting religion has a say in this debate? And that the Mashpee deserve a hearing?
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Another thing Carl,
If we were to end support of the wind industry it would die rapidly.
One reaction to this would be: Good riddance. If Wind power can't succeed without gov't support, it should die.
Another reaction: OK, then we'll wake up 20 years from now with no domestic wind industry. Fossil fuels could have gone through the roof by then & we could be more dependent than ever on foreign oil. To make matters worse we'd be dependent upon China for wind turbines & China would have the tens of thousands of turbine industry jobs and we'd have none.
The level of gov't support of Wind is obviously relevant. We could be providing too much support today.
But leaving economic development solely to the current market can be too tactical (not strategic). Are we willing to allow the Chinese, who will accept short term loss for long term strategic gain, to dominate Wind Power just for the sake of being economic libertarians today?
That sounds like cutting off our noses to spite our faces.
Still, at some level gov't support IS excessive. Finding the right balance is the hard part.
If we were to end support of the wind industry it would die rapidly.
One reaction to this would be: Good riddance. If Wind power can't succeed without gov't support, it should die.
Another reaction: OK, then we'll wake up 20 years from now with no domestic wind industry. Fossil fuels could have gone through the roof by then & we could be more dependent than ever on foreign oil. To make matters worse we'd be dependent upon China for wind turbines & China would have the tens of thousands of turbine industry jobs and we'd have none.
The level of gov't support of Wind is obviously relevant. We could be providing too much support today.
But leaving economic development solely to the current market can be too tactical (not strategic). Are we willing to allow the Chinese, who will accept short term loss for long term strategic gain, to dominate Wind Power just for the sake of being economic libertarians today?
That sounds like cutting off our noses to spite our faces.
Still, at some level gov't support IS excessive. Finding the right balance is the hard part.
dolphin [Member] writes:
Dave...your thought "This article has given me pause."
Please slow down:
Cape Wind will not reduce any pollutants.
Cape Wind will increase electric rates all across the State of MA.
Cape Wind will destroy Nantucket Sound. Today and forever.
Please slow down:
Cape Wind will not reduce any pollutants.
Cape Wind will increase electric rates all across the State of MA.
Cape Wind will destroy Nantucket Sound. Today and forever.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Dolphin,
I disagree with the last one but that's my opinion. This involves a value judgment so I can't say I'm right and you're wrong.
Can you explain the pollution thing? My rationale: Every MWh of power supplied by CW means one less MWh supplied by burning fossil fuel. CW will result in less pollution/CO2. How is that wrong?
The jury is out on rates Dolphin. We'll know more when the National Grid contract is done. I suspect that the rates in that contract will be somewhat higher than market rate. But nothing close to the 2 to 3 times the market rate that the Alliance likes to claim. That's a bald faced lie. The state is providing incentives for utilities to buy renewable power and I think that will produce modestly higher rates. But not much higher. And, given that Cape Wind will represent less than 1.5% of grid volume, the effect from CW itself will be exceedingly small. Tiny.
I disagree with the last one but that's my opinion. This involves a value judgment so I can't say I'm right and you're wrong.
Can you explain the pollution thing? My rationale: Every MWh of power supplied by CW means one less MWh supplied by burning fossil fuel. CW will result in less pollution/CO2. How is that wrong?
The jury is out on rates Dolphin. We'll know more when the National Grid contract is done. I suspect that the rates in that contract will be somewhat higher than market rate. But nothing close to the 2 to 3 times the market rate that the Alliance likes to claim. That's a bald faced lie. The state is providing incentives for utilities to buy renewable power and I think that will produce modestly higher rates. But not much higher. And, given that Cape Wind will represent less than 1.5% of grid volume, the effect from CW itself will be exceedingly small. Tiny.
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
I say, I got up at dawn today.
I looked out upon land & sea, and saw a shadow of contaminant not only staining view, a stain continually renewed, as it was born by an unwilling wind, a wind that would rather lend its energy to cleanly & harmoniously helping humans to lift their loads, light their day, compute their world, & watch Dr Who.
I see small glimmers - islands where some even drive with the power of the sun, breaking so many fewer Carbon bonds.
My religion is to be in harmony with people - energy - the enviroment - other countries. I see dirty energy as the enemy of breathing well - my most sacred ritual, as the enemy of healing people, living in a peaceful world - of it even making a reason to show scorn & ridicule to my Brother/Sister Nofreewind "If that IS your real name"
The wind can be part of the power to set us free, you my friend seem determined to be its 1st heretic, doubting the entire logical construct of ending our dependence on foreign powers.
WE can make America a clean country with just her own oil & gas, but more over with her sun & wind.
Amen
I looked out upon land & sea, and saw a shadow of contaminant not only staining view, a stain continually renewed, as it was born by an unwilling wind, a wind that would rather lend its energy to cleanly & harmoniously helping humans to lift their loads, light their day, compute their world, & watch Dr Who.
I see small glimmers - islands where some even drive with the power of the sun, breaking so many fewer Carbon bonds.
My religion is to be in harmony with people - energy - the enviroment - other countries. I see dirty energy as the enemy of breathing well - my most sacred ritual, as the enemy of healing people, living in a peaceful world - of it even making a reason to show scorn & ridicule to my Brother/Sister Nofreewind "If that IS your real name"
The wind can be part of the power to set us free, you my friend seem determined to be its 1st heretic, doubting the entire logical construct of ending our dependence on foreign powers.
WE can make America a clean country with just her own oil & gas, but more over with her sun & wind.
Amen
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
In the world Dolphin lives in;"Cape Wind will not reduce any pollutants." - Except the millon tons of CO2 each year, and the according number of particulates that 1 million tons of CO2 brings, and the heavy metals, and sulfides.
Other than those, Dolphin is 100% correct. After 20 years of offsetting that kind of stain upon the land, I know I'll be feeling like the breathing along the way was better spent.
I'm sure Dolphin & NFW are rolling their eyes at how I'm droning on about breathing again, but, bless it, it is my religion.
Did you know that prayer - & resulting breathing techniques - form the basis of almost all religions? Prayer beads, even rosaries are time keepers to keep the mantra going in your head. It is thus we enter into a state of grace, to walk with heart like (jesus - budda - insert enlightened mind state here)
To stain this medium of grace with the most toxic of smoke, the monies coming from war, going to war.
The people rise up to say "we have the technology to stop the stain" the false prophet yells "STAY THE COURSE" with the oil of our enemies.
Other than those, Dolphin is 100% correct. After 20 years of offsetting that kind of stain upon the land, I know I'll be feeling like the breathing along the way was better spent.
I'm sure Dolphin & NFW are rolling their eyes at how I'm droning on about breathing again, but, bless it, it is my religion.
Did you know that prayer - & resulting breathing techniques - form the basis of almost all religions? Prayer beads, even rosaries are time keepers to keep the mantra going in your head. It is thus we enter into a state of grace, to walk with heart like (jesus - budda - insert enlightened mind state here)
To stain this medium of grace with the most toxic of smoke, the monies coming from war, going to war.
The people rise up to say "we have the technology to stop the stain" the false prophet yells "STAY THE COURSE" with the oil of our enemies.
Monponsett [Member] writes:
Were you up all night doing coke or something?
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
"Cape Wind will increase electric rates all across the State of MA"
It has yet to be proven by wind detractors, that they grasp how the energy market works. To see the proof, just click on [ Show all comments by this user ] for Dave Kent and Dolphin, you tell me which one knows what they are talking about.
And the #1 Distortion trolled out several times a day in hope that repetition of a lie will make a truth is:
"Cape Wind will destroy Nantucket Sound. Today and forever."
The fact that under the greatest duress a developer has ever faced, the simple economic & environmental benefits of the Cape wind project have procured every single permit, passed every review, suffered every delay - legal & underhanded, every back-door deal.
That is why we are here today, the final decision is being made BECAUSE all the bogus claims have been put to bed by the rational. Only the shills that will never change their tune are seeing monopoles in 8 - 30 ft of water as an assault the sound cannot survive.
I pray Ken Salazar sees the 1st light, but also feels the wind - & lets them work together.
It has yet to be proven by wind detractors, that they grasp how the energy market works. To see the proof, just click on [ Show all comments by this user ] for Dave Kent and Dolphin, you tell me which one knows what they are talking about.
And the #1 Distortion trolled out several times a day in hope that repetition of a lie will make a truth is:
"Cape Wind will destroy Nantucket Sound. Today and forever."
The fact that under the greatest duress a developer has ever faced, the simple economic & environmental benefits of the Cape wind project have procured every single permit, passed every review, suffered every delay - legal & underhanded, every back-door deal.
That is why we are here today, the final decision is being made BECAUSE all the bogus claims have been put to bed by the rational. Only the shills that will never change their tune are seeing monopoles in 8 - 30 ft of water as an assault the sound cannot survive.
I pray Ken Salazar sees the 1st light, but also feels the wind - & lets them work together.
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
I got up and prayed for a wind farm.
Don't touch Coke, ever.
Don't touch Coke, ever.
Walker [Member] writes:
Isn't the stain of Cape Cod's air pollution born of a willing wind coming from Ohio and New York?
I fail to see how a crap-shoot on a nonviable source of power in the sound will improve the local air quality.
I fail to see how a crap-shoot on a nonviable source of power in the sound will improve the local air quality.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Peter,
Virtually every "first" was a crap shoot to some degree. The first railroad, the first airplane, the first municipal electric system, the first cell phone network, blah, blah, blah you've heard me say it before.
Should we demand a guarantee of success before we try anything new?
I'm sure glad the people who came before us didn't. We'd still be hunting and gathering.
Virtually every "first" was a crap shoot to some degree. The first railroad, the first airplane, the first municipal electric system, the first cell phone network, blah, blah, blah you've heard me say it before.
Should we demand a guarantee of success before we try anything new?
I'm sure glad the people who came before us didn't. We'd still be hunting and gathering.
Walker [Member] writes:
Very true Dave, what I like to know from someone who has evidently done more homework on the subject, does anyone really believe Cape Wind will effect the air quality on the Cape? I asked Carl and got no response, bitter rails about it but with the lack of industry on the sandbar will the air quality really improve?
Kathryn Kleekamp, Co-Chair of Cape Clean Air, notes that “While cars and Midwest power plants contribute to the Cape's air pollution, local fossil fuel power plants also play a crucial role. The Harvard School of Public Health study of power plants found that the greatest concentrations of polluting emissions fall locally, peaking within 5 to 20 miles of the plants, and cause significant numbers of premature deaths, asthma attacks, and other respiratory problems.”
Isn't the Mirant Canal Plant's future going to be determined regardless of the wind farms outcome?
Kathryn Kleekamp, Co-Chair of Cape Clean Air, notes that “While cars and Midwest power plants contribute to the Cape's air pollution, local fossil fuel power plants also play a crucial role. The Harvard School of Public Health study of power plants found that the greatest concentrations of polluting emissions fall locally, peaking within 5 to 20 miles of the plants, and cause significant numbers of premature deaths, asthma attacks, and other respiratory problems.”
Isn't the Mirant Canal Plant's future going to be determined regardless of the wind farms outcome?
dolphin [Member] writes:
Walker..."Kathryn Kleekamp, Co-Chair of Cape Clean Air".
Any relation to Chuck Kleekamp of Clean Power Now? He is one of the biggest spinmeisters in this debate. Thank God he is a retired engineer.
Any relation to Chuck Kleekamp of Clean Power Now? He is one of the biggest spinmeisters in this debate. Thank God he is a retired engineer.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
There is no pollution on Cape Cod
http://www.weather.com/outlook/health/airquality/?state=MA#MA
http://www.weather.com/outlook/health/airquality/?state=MA#MA
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Actually Walker-
I don't ever remember railing about Cape Cod...I rail about the whole country.
In fact, Cape Cod likes to USE a lot of energy, but wants the ugly part of it shlumped off to other parts of the country....you know, not in my backyard...or eyesight as the case may be.
Why don't you prove to me that oil/coal/gas are good for the environment so that I can shut up?
Because, as you may have noticed, I don't fall for your game. Pollution exists-you can't roll over that fact by claiming it's all some global warming hoax.
How is coal/oil better for this country than renewable energy?
I don't ever remember railing about Cape Cod...I rail about the whole country.
In fact, Cape Cod likes to USE a lot of energy, but wants the ugly part of it shlumped off to other parts of the country....you know, not in my backyard...or eyesight as the case may be.
Why don't you prove to me that oil/coal/gas are good for the environment so that I can shut up?
Because, as you may have noticed, I don't fall for your game. Pollution exists-you can't roll over that fact by claiming it's all some global warming hoax.
How is coal/oil better for this country than renewable energy?
Walker [Member] writes:
Loosen up the foil Catwomen, as Ned would say,"WTF" are you talking about? I never said ..."that oil/coal/gas are good for the environment..."
I asked if Cape Wind would have any effect on the air quality. You tell me my kids drink lead, yada, yada yada.
Will the wind farm stop it?
As far as global warming goes , didn't the Ice Age end due to global warming before man walked the earth?
I asked if Cape Wind would have any effect on the air quality. You tell me my kids drink lead, yada, yada yada.
Will the wind farm stop it?
As far as global warming goes , didn't the Ice Age end due to global warming before man walked the earth?
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