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:: Thursday, July 29th, 2010Cape Wind Conversation
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The #1 Argument AGAINST Cape Wind
02/08/10 · 12:18 pm :: posted by Dave Kent
Is Nantucket Sound too important and too beautiful?
An awful lot of the Cape Wind debate is devoted to “technical” issues: Costs, fishing, navigation, aviation, tourism, etc. Anybody who has read my stuff knows that I spend most of my time on technical issues and I usually argue that, when we look at the evidence, these issues don’t work against the wind farm.
One of the nice things about the technical issues is that evidence can be gathered and evaluated. Over the years, the appropriate government agencies have been assigned to do this. The FAA is reviewing effects on aviation. The Coast guard has reviewed navigation. The Interior Department has reviewed effects on fishing, mammals, the sea bottom and a host of other environmental issues. Almost without exception these agencies have determined that the effects of Cape Wind will be minor or that they can be mitigated. By this score Cape Wind is on a long winning streak.
But there is one very important issue that cannot be evaluated technically: Whether or not Nantucket Sound is too important and too beautiful a place to devote to industrial development. Even if you have the stamina to read every word of the Marine and Mineral Service Environmental Impact Statement you won’t find a section that examines this issue. Why? Because it can’t be evaluated technically. Deciding this issue involves a judgment call. At the risk of being maudlin, deciding this issue requires one’s heart, not one’s head.
I can understand the frustration of Cape Wind opponents who feel very strongly that the Sound shouldn’t be developed. Even though the review process has taken an unprecedented amount of time and been of unprecedented depth, it has not considered their fundamental concern. It has not validated their fundamental belief.
It’s my personal opinion that this frustration drives many Cape Wind critics to support all of the technical criticisms that just don’t hold water. And I believe that, in so doing, they hurt their case. They lose credibility. But they’re driven to this by the failure of the process to consider the "non-technical" value of the Sound.
I also believe that many critics have heart felt opinions in this area that are being lost in all of this technical talk. Lately, I’ve been encouraging the Cape Wind critics I know to go back and voice their opinion about the Sound. That is, to forget about cost, fishing, aviation and the rest and tell us why it’s too important a place to develop.
So I hope that, if you read this and you feel strongly that the Sound must be preserved, you will write a post and describe those feelings. This most important issue gets lost in all the technical talk. So let’s talk about it.
117 comments
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Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Dolphin,
I'm going to do my best to avoid "technical issues" such as rates in this particular thread. My express purpose in this one is to get people who believe that the Sound is to beautiful and valuable a place to develop to explain why they feel that way.
As I said in my blog, that sentiment gets lost in all the technical stuff.
This may seem obvious to people that feel strongly about this, but to many of us, it's not obvious. Or at least, it doesn't obviously outweigh other considerations.
I'm going to do my best to avoid "technical issues" such as rates in this particular thread. My express purpose in this one is to get people who believe that the Sound is to beautiful and valuable a place to develop to explain why they feel that way.
As I said in my blog, that sentiment gets lost in all the technical stuff.
This may seem obvious to people that feel strongly about this, but to many of us, it's not obvious. Or at least, it doesn't obviously outweigh other considerations.
barbara hill [Member] writes:
Dave -
In order to discuss how one feels about Nantucket Sound and what you call "too beautiful a place to devote to industrial development" there needs to be a context. The context is this - Nantucket Sound is over 600 square miles and the area of the wind farm will occupy approximately 24 square miles. When you and others claim that Nantucket Sound will be lost or gone forever or ruined, it serves to misinform. If you quantify it with the area in which the wind farm will be built then that certainly is a matter of ones own feeling. I feel it will be a powerful symbol of our love for Nantucket Sound serving almost as a benediction for all the ways we have not honored that beautiful body of water. How about the ferries dumping the waste products or the oil slicks from fishing boats or the draggers pillaging all beneath them or the septic systems from coastline homes or the pollution raining down from our use of fossil fuels. I feel strongly that building Cape Wind is a way of preserving it.
In order to discuss how one feels about Nantucket Sound and what you call "too beautiful a place to devote to industrial development" there needs to be a context. The context is this - Nantucket Sound is over 600 square miles and the area of the wind farm will occupy approximately 24 square miles. When you and others claim that Nantucket Sound will be lost or gone forever or ruined, it serves to misinform. If you quantify it with the area in which the wind farm will be built then that certainly is a matter of ones own feeling. I feel it will be a powerful symbol of our love for Nantucket Sound serving almost as a benediction for all the ways we have not honored that beautiful body of water. How about the ferries dumping the waste products or the oil slicks from fishing boats or the draggers pillaging all beneath them or the septic systems from coastline homes or the pollution raining down from our use of fossil fuels. I feel strongly that building Cape Wind is a way of preserving it.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Barbara,
You’ve got me backwards. I must have written 1,000 posts on Cape Wind over the last 3 or 4 years and 99% are in favor of the project. Ask your husband who used to team up with me a bunch on the old Cape Cod Times site. But I do feel that the opinions of people who value the Sound for “non-technical” reasons are sometimes overlooked. So, I’m asking for that perspective so that we can consider it.
But I hear you on perspective (24 sqm of 600 sqm). I also view turbines with pride when I see them and consider them to represent the result of efforts to preserve our environment, including the Sound.
I just want to hear the other side too (separate from costs, birds, blah, blah, blah).
Say “Hi” to Stephen for me.
You’ve got me backwards. I must have written 1,000 posts on Cape Wind over the last 3 or 4 years and 99% are in favor of the project. Ask your husband who used to team up with me a bunch on the old Cape Cod Times site. But I do feel that the opinions of people who value the Sound for “non-technical” reasons are sometimes overlooked. So, I’m asking for that perspective so that we can consider it.
But I hear you on perspective (24 sqm of 600 sqm). I also view turbines with pride when I see them and consider them to represent the result of efforts to preserve our environment, including the Sound.
I just want to hear the other side too (separate from costs, birds, blah, blah, blah).
Say “Hi” to Stephen for me.
dolphin [Member] writes:
Barbara Hill...your thought "I feel it will be a powerful symbol of our love for Nantucket Sound serving almost as a benediction for all the ways we have not honored that beautiful body of water. How about the ferries dumping the waste products or the oil slicks from fishing boats or the draggers pillaging all beneath them or the septic systems from coastline homes or the pollution raining down from our use of fossil fuels. I feel strongly that building Cape Wind is a way of preserving it."
After you finish benediction maybe we will have time for a few facts. The sources of pollution to Nantucket Sound are as follows:
74% - Septic Systems
7% - Storm Runoff
6% - Fertilizers
3% - Natural Sources (animal,etc.)
10% - Airborne Pollutants
If the majority of the 10% are from local transportation and the midwest how can you suggest Cape Wind will preserve anything?
After you finish benediction maybe we will have time for a few facts. The sources of pollution to Nantucket Sound are as follows:
74% - Septic Systems
7% - Storm Runoff
6% - Fertilizers
3% - Natural Sources (animal,etc.)
10% - Airborne Pollutants
If the majority of the 10% are from local transportation and the midwest how can you suggest Cape Wind will preserve anything?
dolphin [Member] writes:
Sorry Dave...I knew you didn't want facts nor technical issues on this post. They get in the way of spin.
Barbara...please give Peck my best. Thanks.
Barbara...please give Peck my best. Thanks.
Ted from Hyannis Port [Member] writes:
Don't drink water, because fish f*ck in it.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Dolphin,
Picture me laughing at being scolded for not wanting facts and technical input from the likes or you - the person who has not once - NOT ONCE - backed up a statement to me.
You're really too much Dolphin.
Picture me laughing at being scolded for not wanting facts and technical input from the likes or you - the person who has not once - NOT ONCE - backed up a statement to me.
You're really too much Dolphin.
dolphin [Member] writes:
Dave...do you find the polluting of Nantucket Sound amusing?
Or are you crying because you know in your heart Cape Wind will have no effect whatsoever?
Or are you crying because you know in your heart Cape Wind will have no effect whatsoever?
dolphin [Member] writes:
OTHER THAN THE DESTRUCTION OF NANTUCKET SOUND!
Dave cap's are impolite. I thought you were a gentlemen?
Dave cap's are impolite. I thought you were a gentlemen?
dolphin [Member] writes:
After you finish benediction maybe we will have time for a few facts. The sources of pollution to Nantucket Sound are as follows:
74% - Septic Systems
7% - Storm Runoff
6% - Fertilizers
3% - Natural Sources (animal,etc.)
10% - Airborne Pollutants
If the majority of the 10% are from local transportation and the midwest how can you suggest Cape Wind will preserve anything?
Dave...they look like facts to me.
74% - Septic Systems
7% - Storm Runoff
6% - Fertilizers
3% - Natural Sources (animal,etc.)
10% - Airborne Pollutants
If the majority of the 10% are from local transportation and the midwest how can you suggest Cape Wind will preserve anything?
Dave...they look like facts to me.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Let's all ignore Dolphin and see if we can talk about preserving the Sound.
dolphin [Member] writes:
Dave...are you suggesting we ignore the sources of pollution to Nantucket Sound?
And the real remedies?
And the real remedies?
dan friend [Member] writes:
Nantucket Sound has a "Spirit of Place" undeniable to all who know her... breathing, moving, heart-beating -- alive. The power of this and other sacred places helps humans remember and hopefully understand that they, too, are part of a divine Creation. People remember this by feeling their own spirits stir when in the presence of such perfect beauty. Consider that sensation --the stirring of your own spirit deep within you -- a personal greeting between the divine in you and the "Spirit of Place" within Nantucket Sound. It is a powerful and mysterious thing --as natural things tend to be.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
The late Senator Kennedy was fighting a losing battle. The Massachusetts Green Communities Act mandates that 25% of our energy must come from renewable sources, which is mostly from wind turbines. This translates into about 25 wind farms the size of Cape Wind.
All those who want to save the Sound from industrialization need to understand that before we are done there will be wind turbines all over Nantucket Sound, Buzzards Bay, Cape Cod Bay, and the North Shore.
Repeal of the Massachusetts Green Communities Act is the only way to stop this mad attempt to save the world from Global Warming.
The Danish experiment with wind has resulted in very high electric rates and no reduction in CO2 emissions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgUsun3hIT0
The question before us is very simple. Do we really want to sacrifice Nantucket Sound for next to nothing?
All those who want to save the Sound from industrialization need to understand that before we are done there will be wind turbines all over Nantucket Sound, Buzzards Bay, Cape Cod Bay, and the North Shore.
Repeal of the Massachusetts Green Communities Act is the only way to stop this mad attempt to save the world from Global Warming.
The Danish experiment with wind has resulted in very high electric rates and no reduction in CO2 emissions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgUsun3hIT0
The question before us is very simple. Do we really want to sacrifice Nantucket Sound for next to nothing?
Ludwig II [Member] writes:
The mountain tops in Coasta Rica's National parks are too beautiful too -
But Costa Ricans line the peaks with wind turbines for their nation's good.
Wolf Island in the ST. Lawrence Seaway is too beautiful too -
But Canadians line the shoreline with wind turbines for their nation's good.
The oceans surrounding Great Britain are too beautiful too -
But the British built offshore wind farms there for their nation's good.
The verdant plains of Midwest America are too beautiful too -
And Midwesterners are laughing at the phony NIMBYs on Cape Cod.
But Costa Ricans line the peaks with wind turbines for their nation's good.
Wolf Island in the ST. Lawrence Seaway is too beautiful too -
But Canadians line the shoreline with wind turbines for their nation's good.
The oceans surrounding Great Britain are too beautiful too -
But the British built offshore wind farms there for their nation's good.
The verdant plains of Midwest America are too beautiful too -
And Midwesterners are laughing at the phony NIMBYs on Cape Cod.
breeze [Member] writes:
nofreewind has distorted information about Denmark's very successful experience with wind. Maybe he should rename his blog "yesdirtyenergy"
nofreewind [Member] writes:
breeze:
Read this again, and then tell us what's distorted.
"Flemming Nissen, the head of development at West Danish generating company ELSAM (one of Denmark’s largest energy utilities) tells us that “wind turbines do not reduce carbon dioxide emissions.” The German experience is no different. Der Spiegel reports that “Germany’s CO2 emissions haven’t been reduced by even a single gram,” and additional coal- and gas-fired plants have been constructed to ensure reliable delivery."
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2009/04/08/wind-power-is-a-complete-disaster.aspx
Read this again, and then tell us what's distorted.
"Flemming Nissen, the head of development at West Danish generating company ELSAM (one of Denmark’s largest energy utilities) tells us that “wind turbines do not reduce carbon dioxide emissions.” The German experience is no different. Der Spiegel reports that “Germany’s CO2 emissions haven’t been reduced by even a single gram,” and additional coal- and gas-fired plants have been constructed to ensure reliable delivery."
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2009/04/08/wind-power-is-a-complete-disaster.aspx
Richard [Member] writes:
Hi, Ted
Better watch out 'cause if Peter Walker reads your comment he'll accuse you of "plagiarism." The fish quote is from W.C. Fields, explaining why he always drank whiskey.
Better watch out 'cause if Peter Walker reads your comment he'll accuse you of "plagiarism." The fish quote is from W.C. Fields, explaining why he always drank whiskey.
Richard [Member] writes:
Dave
I'll take that talk about the "pristine" waters of Nanucket Sound seriously the day they start to tear down all the overbuilt mansions and McMansions that line the northern shore of the sound -beginning with the Kennedy properties in Hyannisport.
Scenic values are a two way street, and the view from the sound ain't what Gosnold saw when he first plied the local waters.
To speak of preserving the "scenic" value or "spiritual" purity of Nantucket Sound, after more than 300 years of commercial use and abuse, is the moral and logical equivalent of defending the virginity of a whore.
I'll take that talk about the "pristine" waters of Nanucket Sound seriously the day they start to tear down all the overbuilt mansions and McMansions that line the northern shore of the sound -beginning with the Kennedy properties in Hyannisport.
Scenic values are a two way street, and the view from the sound ain't what Gosnold saw when he first plied the local waters.
To speak of preserving the "scenic" value or "spiritual" purity of Nantucket Sound, after more than 300 years of commercial use and abuse, is the moral and logical equivalent of defending the virginity of a whore.
Walker [Member] writes:
Slow day @ the ER counselor?
neil good [Member] writes:
Richard,
News flash- the National Park Service "Determination of Eligibility Notification" reads in part....
"Although there are some modern navigational devices such as bouys and some changes to the seabed over time, the Sound remains much as it has for hundreds of years."
News flash- the National Park Service "Determination of Eligibility Notification" reads in part....
"Although there are some modern navigational devices such as bouys and some changes to the seabed over time, the Sound remains much as it has for hundreds of years."
oh the huge manatee! [Member] writes:
I can't wait to take my boat out there and tour the wind farm. I think they will look very cool. They will be a working symbol that the U.S. is actually going to make an effort to succeed in this new energy century.
/can't wait!
/can't wait!
nofreewind [Member] writes:
More than likely the whole area will be "Off Limits".
bobcat87 [Member] writes:
Dave,
Your post seems to me to be a thinly veiled attempt to bring this entire argument right back to nimbyism. Sorry, but the arguments against this project are numerous and valid. To cry nimby is about as ridiculous as it gets, yet its the tactic that you windies fall back on each and every time you open your mouths. I've had more intelligent debates with my ten year old.
Maybe we should talk about how many lawyers are lined up, and how many more years the case will drag on, in the event that Salazar finds in favor of Cape Wind?
Your post seems to me to be a thinly veiled attempt to bring this entire argument right back to nimbyism. Sorry, but the arguments against this project are numerous and valid. To cry nimby is about as ridiculous as it gets, yet its the tactic that you windies fall back on each and every time you open your mouths. I've had more intelligent debates with my ten year old.
Maybe we should talk about how many lawyers are lined up, and how many more years the case will drag on, in the event that Salazar finds in favor of Cape Wind?
Buzz [Member] writes:
"the Sound remains much as it has for hundreds of years."
Neil, are you sure? I swore I drove past a WalMart being built around Horseshoe Shoal.
Neil, are you sure? I swore I drove past a WalMart being built around Horseshoe Shoal.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Bull. Nimbyism is the only argument. Everything else falls flat.
Unless you truly think that YOU have more right to be free from the results of crapitalistic exploitation of the earth than everyone else who lives on this planet.
We all want natural beauty to remain unspoiled, but WE have spoiled so much already it's ridiculous to use that as an argument!.....unless you want to give up the big boats big homes big cars big planes big toys big big big.
You don't. America has made that clear....we want what we want when we want it, and dam the consequences.
So dammit--time for us to pay our share of the consequences!!!
And I am one who loves the turbines--at least the one at the Maritime Academy...i think they are majestic, like heralds of a new age.
Unless you truly think that YOU have more right to be free from the results of crapitalistic exploitation of the earth than everyone else who lives on this planet.
We all want natural beauty to remain unspoiled, but WE have spoiled so much already it's ridiculous to use that as an argument!.....unless you want to give up the big boats big homes big cars big planes big toys big big big.
You don't. America has made that clear....we want what we want when we want it, and dam the consequences.
So dammit--time for us to pay our share of the consequences!!!
And I am one who loves the turbines--at least the one at the Maritime Academy...i think they are majestic, like heralds of a new age.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Rich,
I don’t think that a place has to be nearly 100% original or undeveloped to deserve preservation. While there’s no doubt that the mansions you mention and other man-made artifacts make Nantucket Sound less pristine than it was when Gosnold first saw it, there’s still a great deal of natural beauty out there. It’s reasonable to argue that we should protect that beauty.
Of course, as with almost any tough decision in society or in one’s life, there are other factors to weigh. Personally, while I value the beauty of the Sound, other factors carry greater weight for me. I am most interested in building Cape Wind so this country can get a start on developing an extensive offshore wind power industry. I also don’t believe that the wind farm will be ugly. I think that it will be majestic. The European experience does not support dire predictions of people hating the looks of the wind farm, tourism tanking, etc.
But that’s the way I weigh the issues. Others put much more weight on preserving the Sound.
I don’t think that a place has to be nearly 100% original or undeveloped to deserve preservation. While there’s no doubt that the mansions you mention and other man-made artifacts make Nantucket Sound less pristine than it was when Gosnold first saw it, there’s still a great deal of natural beauty out there. It’s reasonable to argue that we should protect that beauty.
Of course, as with almost any tough decision in society or in one’s life, there are other factors to weigh. Personally, while I value the beauty of the Sound, other factors carry greater weight for me. I am most interested in building Cape Wind so this country can get a start on developing an extensive offshore wind power industry. I also don’t believe that the wind farm will be ugly. I think that it will be majestic. The European experience does not support dire predictions of people hating the looks of the wind farm, tourism tanking, etc.
But that’s the way I weigh the issues. Others put much more weight on preserving the Sound.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Bobcat,
Yeah, In the group of people who stand strongly against developing Horseshoe Shoals, there’s a fine line between people who honestly want to preserves its beauty & the NIMBYists. It’s hard to tell the difference but there is a difference.
Ted Kennedy, may he rest in peace, is a good example. As a progressive Ted would surely have been a Cape Wind supporter had the wind farm been anywhere but within view (on a clear day) of Hyannisport. Can anyone really believe that, had CW been planned for the coast off New Bedford, Ted would have been a vocal opponent? Doubtful. That’s NIMBYism.
On the other hand, a couple of my personal friends in Falmouth who grew up on the Cape just plain believe that the wind farm would be a big step toward destroying the beauty of the Cape. They don’t live close enough to the Shoals to have any NIMBY interest. They have heartfelt reservations.
My whole point in writing this particular blog was to validate the feelings of those with heartfelt reservations. I’ll yell “NIMBY” as loud as anybody when it’s deserved. But it’s not always deserved.
Yeah, In the group of people who stand strongly against developing Horseshoe Shoals, there’s a fine line between people who honestly want to preserves its beauty & the NIMBYists. It’s hard to tell the difference but there is a difference.
Ted Kennedy, may he rest in peace, is a good example. As a progressive Ted would surely have been a Cape Wind supporter had the wind farm been anywhere but within view (on a clear day) of Hyannisport. Can anyone really believe that, had CW been planned for the coast off New Bedford, Ted would have been a vocal opponent? Doubtful. That’s NIMBYism.
On the other hand, a couple of my personal friends in Falmouth who grew up on the Cape just plain believe that the wind farm would be a big step toward destroying the beauty of the Cape. They don’t live close enough to the Shoals to have any NIMBY interest. They have heartfelt reservations.
My whole point in writing this particular blog was to validate the feelings of those with heartfelt reservations. I’ll yell “NIMBY” as loud as anybody when it’s deserved. But it’s not always deserved.
notawonk [Member] writes:
There is a good point here about natural beauty of our world. What did anyplace look like before people covered it with buildings or strip mines or superhighway systems - particularly open places with views? What would Monument Valley look like full of wind turbines? Or the rims of the Grand Canyon? We are potentially producing eyesores with windfarms on the prairies - we get used to things like the telephone poles and electric wires we live with around us everywhere now?
The best answer for the human race in its challenge for place and space and resource, worldwide, comes down to pills and rubbers and population reduction rather than belief in an infinity of the earthen environment.
But one still doesn't want to let Mr Koch and friends triumph in their hypocracy and underhanded self interest, if only because we know about it. How do we eat our cake and keep it, too?
The best answer for the human race in its challenge for place and space and resource, worldwide, comes down to pills and rubbers and population reduction rather than belief in an infinity of the earthen environment.
But one still doesn't want to let Mr Koch and friends triumph in their hypocracy and underhanded self interest, if only because we know about it. How do we eat our cake and keep it, too?
capemh [Member] writes:
Here are the issues:
1. Even with all of the federal tax credits and other governmental tax subsidies, what electricity is produced will cost at least 50% more than power generated now.
2. Its output will have no effect on shutting down other power plants since most of the electricity it will produce will be made when it is not needed and the power can't be stored.
3. Solar and geothermal technologies are advancing by leaps and bounds and will make the wind turbines obsolete (if they are not already) before one watt is put into the grid.
I'm not a nimby. If they wanted to close Camp Edwards and turn that into a energy farm, I'd have no problem with that and that is literally in my backyard. But because the sound is intrinsically connected to so much of the economic life of the Cape, from fishing to tourism, taking chances with its health seems reckless and foolish when there is so little to gain.
1. Even with all of the federal tax credits and other governmental tax subsidies, what electricity is produced will cost at least 50% more than power generated now.
2. Its output will have no effect on shutting down other power plants since most of the electricity it will produce will be made when it is not needed and the power can't be stored.
3. Solar and geothermal technologies are advancing by leaps and bounds and will make the wind turbines obsolete (if they are not already) before one watt is put into the grid.
I'm not a nimby. If they wanted to close Camp Edwards and turn that into a energy farm, I'd have no problem with that and that is literally in my backyard. But because the sound is intrinsically connected to so much of the economic life of the Cape, from fishing to tourism, taking chances with its health seems reckless and foolish when there is so little to gain.
notawonk [Member] writes:
NIMBY as a pejorative relates only to a narrow view of the world .. like I said above.
You were trying to expand our focus, right Dave?
You were trying to expand our focus, right Dave?
nofreewind [Member] writes:
When we destroy mountains to get coal we get useful energy to keep us warm in the winter, cool in the summer and the lights on at night.
The destruction of Nantucket Sound will be for nothing. We will get energy we do not need, the energy we get will not reduce pollution, and will not contribute to saving the planet from Global Warming. In short, Nantucket Sound will be destroyed for nothing.
To add insult to injury, wind energy will add to the cost of electricity since wind farms are not a substitute for conventional power sources. The NIMBY crowd may lose their views, but the rest of us will foot the bill for the extra cost.
I get the feeling that some “Would Cut Off Their Nose to Spite Their Face” in their quest to prevent the NIMBY’s from getting their way.
The destruction of Nantucket Sound will be for nothing. We will get energy we do not need, the energy we get will not reduce pollution, and will not contribute to saving the planet from Global Warming. In short, Nantucket Sound will be destroyed for nothing.
To add insult to injury, wind energy will add to the cost of electricity since wind farms are not a substitute for conventional power sources. The NIMBY crowd may lose their views, but the rest of us will foot the bill for the extra cost.
I get the feeling that some “Would Cut Off Their Nose to Spite Their Face” in their quest to prevent the NIMBY’s from getting their way.
Buzz [Member] writes:
We have historic districts on CC that determine what color you paint your house and what type of shutters you can hang. Every town has by-laws that regulate zoning, population density and land use. We pay an excise tax to the Land Bank to preserve open space.
So why is it difficult to understand that their are many on CC who would like to see the pristine beauty of the Sound protected? I'm not against wind, just its location. Once the elephant gets his nose under the tent... it's over.
So why is it difficult to understand that their are many on CC who would like to see the pristine beauty of the Sound protected? I'm not against wind, just its location. Once the elephant gets his nose under the tent... it's over.
bobcat87 [Member] writes:
Buzz, You make a good point about by-laws and zoning regs. This is precisely why Gordon did not propose a wind farm on land. He cleverly found a loophole in the law and made a grab for unregulated federal property (which belongs to all of us, by the way). He is attempting to take public property for personal gain, at little to no cost to himself, all under the guise of green energy.
The kicker is that, if successful in his swindle, he will make the good people of the Cape pay a premium for their power. What a beating.
The kicker is that, if successful in his swindle, he will make the good people of the Cape pay a premium for their power. What a beating.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
"He is attempting to take public property for personal gain"
That is the history of business in America.
Welcome to Capitalism.
Funny-when this issue came up regarding the public air waves, people said hey, whoever has the money to buy them up should be entitled to do so.
The airwaves are public too....look around, Who Owns Them?
And I would like to know if all you non supporters really think Gordon is only in this to make money.
When he said he believes in this project for the future of our country, you say he is lying?
That is the history of business in America.
Welcome to Capitalism.
Funny-when this issue came up regarding the public air waves, people said hey, whoever has the money to buy them up should be entitled to do so.
The airwaves are public too....look around, Who Owns Them?
And I would like to know if all you non supporters really think Gordon is only in this to make money.
When he said he believes in this project for the future of our country, you say he is lying?
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Notawonk,
You ask: “You were trying to expand our focus, right Dave?”.
I think that I’d like us to expand our focus in 2 ways:
1. By recognizing that we shouldn’t label everyone who opposes developing the Shoals as a NIMBY.
2. By viewing the Cape Wind debate as an exercise in weighing pros and cons. I think that we often align ourselves too much with one side or the other and then go to battle. I know I do. Perhaps, if we alter our view in this manner we can listen more to the other side.
You ask: “You were trying to expand our focus, right Dave?”.
I think that I’d like us to expand our focus in 2 ways:
1. By recognizing that we shouldn’t label everyone who opposes developing the Shoals as a NIMBY.
2. By viewing the Cape Wind debate as an exercise in weighing pros and cons. I think that we often align ourselves too much with one side or the other and then go to battle. I know I do. Perhaps, if we alter our view in this manner we can listen more to the other side.
bobcat87 [Member] writes:
Yup, I say he is lying.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Here's what else we, ooops THEY get with mountain top removal:
"It's like having a gun held on you with the hammer back and not knowing when the man's gonna pull the trigger."
"One of the greatest environmental and human rights catastrophes in American history is underway just southwest of our nation's capital. In the coalfields of Appalachia, individuals, families and entire communities are being driven off their land by flooding, landslides and blasting resulting from mountaintop removal coal mining."
"It's like having a gun held on you with the hammer back and not knowing when the man's gonna pull the trigger."
"One of the greatest environmental and human rights catastrophes in American history is underway just southwest of our nation's capital. In the coalfields of Appalachia, individuals, families and entire communities are being driven off their land by flooding, landslides and blasting resulting from mountaintop removal coal mining."
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Capemh,
I can’t agree with all of your criticism of Wind Power, but I’m not going to dive into that. I think that you do raise an important point, however. I’ll try to paraphrase:
“Would this particular wind farm, in its particular place, provide enough benefit to justify the cost?”.
And by “cost” here, I mean loss of beauty.
My #1 reason for supporting Cape Wind is my belief that it can kick start an offshore wind industry in this country. Conversely, I worry that killing the project will put a huge damper on that industry.
But I’ll play devil’s advocate on myself: Perhaps, if CW goes down, Delaware or NJ will lead the way & we’ll end up with virtually the same offshore wind industry 20 years from now without Cape Wind BUT with beautiful Nantucket Sound preserved.
That is, perhaps we should let some other, less valuable offshore location lead the way.
But one last thing: Doesn’t everyone, everywhere believe that their coastline is special? If CW loses here, won’t that embolden NIMBYism everywhere?
I can’t agree with all of your criticism of Wind Power, but I’m not going to dive into that. I think that you do raise an important point, however. I’ll try to paraphrase:
“Would this particular wind farm, in its particular place, provide enough benefit to justify the cost?”.
And by “cost” here, I mean loss of beauty.
My #1 reason for supporting Cape Wind is my belief that it can kick start an offshore wind industry in this country. Conversely, I worry that killing the project will put a huge damper on that industry.
But I’ll play devil’s advocate on myself: Perhaps, if CW goes down, Delaware or NJ will lead the way & we’ll end up with virtually the same offshore wind industry 20 years from now without Cape Wind BUT with beautiful Nantucket Sound preserved.
That is, perhaps we should let some other, less valuable offshore location lead the way.
But one last thing: Doesn’t everyone, everywhere believe that their coastline is special? If CW loses here, won’t that embolden NIMBYism everywhere?
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Bitter,
Do you really believe this?
"Bull. Nimbyism is the only argument."
Now, I'm all for fighting hard against one's political or ideological foes. No-one does a better job of that than you.
But are you saying that all of those that oppose developing the Shoals are NIMBYists? Don't you see room for people who just honestly want to preserve that place?
Perhaps I'm misinterpreted your words.
Do you really believe this?
"Bull. Nimbyism is the only argument."
Now, I'm all for fighting hard against one's political or ideological foes. No-one does a better job of that than you.
But are you saying that all of those that oppose developing the Shoals are NIMBYists? Don't you see room for people who just honestly want to preserve that place?
Perhaps I'm misinterpreted your words.
bobcat87 [Member] writes:
But wait...if everyone, everywhere thinks their coastline is special, then how, according to Cape Wind, can the majority of Cape Cod residents be in favor of the wind farm? Yeah, right.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
bobcat,
It doesn't take a majority to defeat something. Ask Bill Koch.
It doesn't take a majority to defeat something. Ask Bill Koch.
capecrusader [Member] writes:
Destruction of nantucket sound!!
come on... the glaciers built cape cod and the sound
Installing wind turbines for 25 years is really gonna destroy nantucket sound?? come on now...alter it yes but destroy it??
we need to have some common sense in this argument...
come on... the glaciers built cape cod and the sound
Installing wind turbines for 25 years is really gonna destroy nantucket sound?? come on now...alter it yes but destroy it??
we need to have some common sense in this argument...
bobcat87 [Member] writes:
You're absolutely right. Ask Scott Brown :)
bittersweet [Member] writes:
"Bull. Nimbyism is the only argument."
Dave--I mean the only argument that holds any weight. As in; not the bird argument, the fish argument, the water argument, etc etc whatever else they have tried to sell.
"Not in my backyard applies" also to people who want to preserve the Sound for it's natural beauty, or for it's spiritual value, imo.
Like I said, we all want that for our neck of the woods, but not everybody gets it. And the people who want it for themselves have no problem destroying it everywhere else.
That's the point I was trying to make.
Dave--I mean the only argument that holds any weight. As in; not the bird argument, the fish argument, the water argument, etc etc whatever else they have tried to sell.
"Not in my backyard applies" also to people who want to preserve the Sound for it's natural beauty, or for it's spiritual value, imo.
Like I said, we all want that for our neck of the woods, but not everybody gets it. And the people who want it for themselves have no problem destroying it everywhere else.
That's the point I was trying to make.
bobcat87 [Member] writes:
For someone who apparently loathes capitalism as much as you do, I find it curious that you support Cape Wind, a capitalistic free-for-all. Just an observation.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Bitter,
First to show you how square I am, I had to go to an online list of text messaging abbreviations to understand "imo".
Second, you really don't see a difference between sincere preservationists and cynical NIMBYists? Really?
First to show you how square I am, I had to go to an online list of text messaging abbreviations to understand "imo".
Second, you really don't see a difference between sincere preservationists and cynical NIMBYists? Really?
Dick Farley [Member] writes:
What ever happened to: Think globally, act locally?
Junior Kennedy went to West Virginia proclaiming 200 wind turbines should be emplaced atop Coal River Mountain, instead of what locals call valley fill but what opponents term mountain top removal surface mines.
What about that? Or are alleged economic problems with wind farms moot when balanced against coal mines?
Uncle Ted's problem with Cape Wind was its trespass against "where Jack sailed," an objection that rang hollow.
Only afterward did technocratic and economic arguments take precedence.
Dave is correct! The issue is solidly about values. Whose? Who decides? Based on which beliefs?
And, most importantly: what problems are we trying to solve?
Urban renewal in the '50s and '60s tore down slums, home to their residents.
Interstate highways "destroyed" remote wilderness, disrupting old ways and romantic notions few of us using the highways have ever paused to remember.
Therapy means change!
How Cape Wind's drama plays out will be a signal to observers far beyond the Cape & Islands!
Junior Kennedy went to West Virginia proclaiming 200 wind turbines should be emplaced atop Coal River Mountain, instead of what locals call valley fill but what opponents term mountain top removal surface mines.
What about that? Or are alleged economic problems with wind farms moot when balanced against coal mines?
Uncle Ted's problem with Cape Wind was its trespass against "where Jack sailed," an objection that rang hollow.
Only afterward did technocratic and economic arguments take precedence.
Dave is correct! The issue is solidly about values. Whose? Who decides? Based on which beliefs?
And, most importantly: what problems are we trying to solve?
Urban renewal in the '50s and '60s tore down slums, home to their residents.
Interstate highways "destroyed" remote wilderness, disrupting old ways and romantic notions few of us using the highways have ever paused to remember.
Therapy means change!
How Cape Wind's drama plays out will be a signal to observers far beyond the Cape & Islands!
bittersweet [Member] writes:
If they were sincere preservationists, they would not support mountain top removal, forest destruction, drilling, nuclear, anything!
The way things are now, the best we can do is what does the least damage. And I think--my opinion--that putting turbines in the Sound is far lesss damaging than a lot of what goes on so we can "have heat in winter and stay cool in summer". The problem is, people want to have heat for a mansion that nobody lives in! Or stay cool on an island that could house the whole homeless population.
I geuss what I'm saying is, it's greed. If we want so much, we should pay for it.
If people are losing their homes so we can have electricity---should we get to preserve our Sound?
And I don't think Cape Wind is a capitialistic free-for-all. I believe him when he says he thinks it's right for the future.
Like I said--we can have capitalism with clean energy or capitalism with dirty energy--I choose clean.
And-since you LOVE capitalism so much....what is your problem with him?
The way things are now, the best we can do is what does the least damage. And I think--my opinion--that putting turbines in the Sound is far lesss damaging than a lot of what goes on so we can "have heat in winter and stay cool in summer". The problem is, people want to have heat for a mansion that nobody lives in! Or stay cool on an island that could house the whole homeless population.
I geuss what I'm saying is, it's greed. If we want so much, we should pay for it.
If people are losing their homes so we can have electricity---should we get to preserve our Sound?
And I don't think Cape Wind is a capitialistic free-for-all. I believe him when he says he thinks it's right for the future.
Like I said--we can have capitalism with clean energy or capitalism with dirty energy--I choose clean.
And-since you LOVE capitalism so much....what is your problem with him?
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Capitalism, schmapitalism! This is just another diversion from the real issue: Location, location, location.
Nobody opposed to Cape Wind would give a rat's you-know-what if Gordon was proposing a capitalist venture for Otis Air Force base.
In my original blog, I talked about technical issues that distract us from talking about location. I'm not sure I'd call this a "technical" issue. "Faux issue" would be a better term because nobody would care if Gordon made money at place nobody cared about.
Nobody opposed to Cape Wind would give a rat's you-know-what if Gordon was proposing a capitalist venture for Otis Air Force base.
In my original blog, I talked about technical issues that distract us from talking about location. I'm not sure I'd call this a "technical" issue. "Faux issue" would be a better term because nobody would care if Gordon made money at place nobody cared about.
Chuck Kleekamp [Member] writes:
On the View
Terrestrial landscapes like the Grand Canyon and Mt. Rushmore are indeed unique and their views must be preserved.
All offshore views are also exquisite, but not unique. Let me ask, is the ocean view from Osterville any more or less beautiful than the view off Gloucester or Rockport or the Isles of Shoals in New Hampshire?
If some argue that offshore wind is appropriate, but not in Nantucket Sound, doesn’t that sound a bit hypocritical? I don’t let them off so easily.
Let me paraphrase the fairy tale from the Brothers Grim…
“Window, window on the wall, who’s view is most valuable of all?”
Would it be off New Bedford, or Fall River? Or Nantucket?
Of the 26 existing offshore windfarms in Northern Europe, 20 are within 6 miles of the shore. There has been little resistance there and no decrease in property values or tourism. It is quite the opposite. I have visited Denmark and talked to the people. We should be so wise.
Terrestrial landscapes like the Grand Canyon and Mt. Rushmore are indeed unique and their views must be preserved.
All offshore views are also exquisite, but not unique. Let me ask, is the ocean view from Osterville any more or less beautiful than the view off Gloucester or Rockport or the Isles of Shoals in New Hampshire?
If some argue that offshore wind is appropriate, but not in Nantucket Sound, doesn’t that sound a bit hypocritical? I don’t let them off so easily.
Let me paraphrase the fairy tale from the Brothers Grim…
“Window, window on the wall, who’s view is most valuable of all?”
Would it be off New Bedford, or Fall River? Or Nantucket?
Of the 26 existing offshore windfarms in Northern Europe, 20 are within 6 miles of the shore. There has been little resistance there and no decrease in property values or tourism. It is quite the opposite. I have visited Denmark and talked to the people. We should be so wise.
Ted from Hyannis Port [Member] writes:
Did they ever try to build a windfarm in Europe near a wealthy coastline, and, if so, who was the European version of me?
Dick Farley [Member] writes:
Mr. Kleekamp is, as usual, prescient and balanced.
Amazing "viewsheds" and oceanic horizons draw us outside of ourselves, putting our "sense of place" into a more humbling context.
But just as we long for environmental and spiritual "insulation" to soothe our Romantic notions, simultaneously do our comforts and conveniences weigh so heavily on ecosystems and labor forces beyond our views, indeed usually beyond our consciousnesses, as well.
Looking at wind turbines provokes similar human amazement to watching a space shuttle launch to some of us, hearkening a beckoning future across a new frontier.
To others, perhaps, such events are just "noisy interruptions" of their comfort zones and status quo, costly examples of human hubris or gadgetry.
The point is that planetary systems thinking is about sharing the costs and balancing our needs and greeds fairly.
Although not related directly to Cape Wind, as thousands of people shiver in power out areas, what are they focused on in terms of electricity supplies?
Are they longing for romantic views of placid horizons?
Amazing "viewsheds" and oceanic horizons draw us outside of ourselves, putting our "sense of place" into a more humbling context.
But just as we long for environmental and spiritual "insulation" to soothe our Romantic notions, simultaneously do our comforts and conveniences weigh so heavily on ecosystems and labor forces beyond our views, indeed usually beyond our consciousnesses, as well.
Looking at wind turbines provokes similar human amazement to watching a space shuttle launch to some of us, hearkening a beckoning future across a new frontier.
To others, perhaps, such events are just "noisy interruptions" of their comfort zones and status quo, costly examples of human hubris or gadgetry.
The point is that planetary systems thinking is about sharing the costs and balancing our needs and greeds fairly.
Although not related directly to Cape Wind, as thousands of people shiver in power out areas, what are they focused on in terms of electricity supplies?
Are they longing for romantic views of placid horizons?
countsquackula [Member] writes:
Whoever she was, she was prolly a hottie!
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Charles Kleekamp is correct: There have been very few, if any, reports of local people being unhappy with the looks of offshore wind farms in Europe. On the contrary, there are numerous reports of people being attracted, even inspired by them. This gets to what Dick Farley calls “amazement”.
I’m pleased whenever I see a wind turbine and probably a little inspired. I find them to interesting and I like the fact that they’re helping to preserve the environment.
Of course, there’s no right answer here. What I call pleasing may be god awful ugly to the next person. But I think that, if and when the wind farm is built, we’ll all look back and wonder what all the fuss was over the view.
I’m pleased whenever I see a wind turbine and probably a little inspired. I find them to interesting and I like the fact that they’re helping to preserve the environment.
Of course, there’s no right answer here. What I call pleasing may be god awful ugly to the next person. But I think that, if and when the wind farm is built, we’ll all look back and wonder what all the fuss was over the view.
CC Rockhopper [Member] writes:
This is better then an old Vaudville act.. the sad part is the reality to it all... Just interesting all the way around, I can just FEEEELLLL the LOVE here,,, But all is very interesting..
nofreewind [Member] writes:
Industrial wind technology is a meretricious commodity, attractive in a superficial way
but without real value—seemingly plausible, even significant but actually false and
nugatory. Those who would profit from it either economically or ideologically are
engaged in wholesale deception. For in contrast to their alluring but empty promises of
closed coal plants and reduced carbon emissions is this reality: Wind energy is impotent
while its environmental footprint is massive and malignant.
Jon Boone:
http://www.northnet.org/brvmug/WindPower/WindBall.pdf
but without real value—seemingly plausible, even significant but actually false and
nugatory. Those who would profit from it either economically or ideologically are
engaged in wholesale deception. For in contrast to their alluring but empty promises of
closed coal plants and reduced carbon emissions is this reality: Wind energy is impotent
while its environmental footprint is massive and malignant.
Jon Boone:
http://www.northnet.org/brvmug/WindPower/WindBall.pdf
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
CC Rockhopper,
Yeah, I can see how you'd think that we're getting all dewy and misty eyed here. And I'm leading the way.
But is the bitter partisan warfare that we hear 24/7 on almost any policy issue these days preferable?
I guess I'm metrosexual enough to daub my eyes for awhile if we can just try to frigg'n talk and listen for once.
Yeah, I can see how you'd think that we're getting all dewy and misty eyed here. And I'm leading the way.
But is the bitter partisan warfare that we hear 24/7 on almost any policy issue these days preferable?
I guess I'm metrosexual enough to daub my eyes for awhile if we can just try to frigg'n talk and listen for once.
notawonk [Member] writes:
Another point about desecration of viewscapes -- after they're really old they regain some sense of belonging and even beauty. Ancient castles on stately crags were once were once a form of narcissistic McMansions. Roman roads were once ugly scars of massive engineering projects. After even more years, in either jungle or desert climates, these things revert to a natural geographic appearance and have to be shorn of growth or be excavated to be identified as features of human creation.
So in the long run, we'll have some decrepitating lumps of concrete out there on the bottom of what was Nantucket Sound, before the ice melted, the sea rose, and our descendants had to move back across the former canal, onto the mainland's high ground, while the waves erode what's left of the hills of the moraines.
But before that happens, we'll get used to the windmills anyway, and somebody will be selling pottery with tall pink and blue three-bladed antique electric windmill pictures on it, and they'll be designated historic landmarks, admired by tourists from Nebraska.
So in the long run, we'll have some decrepitating lumps of concrete out there on the bottom of what was Nantucket Sound, before the ice melted, the sea rose, and our descendants had to move back across the former canal, onto the mainland's high ground, while the waves erode what's left of the hills of the moraines.
But before that happens, we'll get used to the windmills anyway, and somebody will be selling pottery with tall pink and blue three-bladed antique electric windmill pictures on it, and they'll be designated historic landmarks, admired by tourists from Nebraska.
notawonk [Member] writes:
And working positively on this now, think what wonderful marks for challenging slalom races they can be for the Fugawi folks. Like marine motocrosses. All that coming about and jibing and scrambling from side to side, really fun, potential scrapes, with close ups from cameras set right on the towers -- just the thing for great national television.
Buzz [Member] writes:
notawonk,
Poetic, nicely done.
How about some T Shirts for the tourists? "My parents toured the windfarm... and all I got was this lousy electric bill"
Poetic, nicely done.
How about some T Shirts for the tourists? "My parents toured the windfarm... and all I got was this lousy electric bill"
dolphin [Member] writes:
Dave..."I find them to interesting and I like the fact that they’re helping to preserve the environment".
Please explain what environment! Nantucket Sound? Cape Cod?
Please explain what environment! Nantucket Sound? Cape Cod?
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Dolphin,
Mainly, less C02 means a better environment. But if you want to debate whether or not Cape Wind will reduce C02, I'll do that with you in another thread, later.
Also, as bitter points out, less disruption from coal mining.
Mainly, less C02 means a better environment. But if you want to debate whether or not Cape Wind will reduce C02, I'll do that with you in another thread, later.
Also, as bitter points out, less disruption from coal mining.
bobcat87 [Member] writes:
Coal mining will not stop because of Cape Wind -- it will stop when the coal is gone. It is a relatively cheap, domestic, and fairly abundant energy source.
Moreover, stopping coal production would certainly result in many (more) jobs lost and lives ruined. But, that's ok, right?
Moreover, stopping coal production would certainly result in many (more) jobs lost and lives ruined. But, that's ok, right?
dolphin [Member] writes:
An open letter to Dave Kent. Do you receive any compensation or remuneration from Cape Cod Today?
notawonk [Member] writes:
Having the windfarm in Nantucket Sound would certainly be better for the environment than putting a new nuclear plant in Wellfleet, which would be a better place for one than the Plymouth location is (farther offshore from the mainland, fewer nearby people, easier to run from, colder water for cooling, etc). But then, even if they then shutdown Plymouth for a new more-efficient reactor, that site's going to be hot and useless for 25000 years anyway. So in the end, it comes to the windfarm as better than radiation, and we've already discussed the evil effects of CO2 from fossil fuels, so wind wins. Putting it in the Sound also leaves more room on land for growing the economy with job-producing construction of more houses for more people, who will need more jobs. Of course the best thing would be for people to use less energy (walk more, keep their houses colder, wear more sweaters, and be celibate to keep the population down, etc).
Just to introduce a few more facts with common sense and balance to the discussion.
Just to introduce a few more facts with common sense and balance to the discussion.
bft [Member] writes:
dolphin, that question will end this thread. CCT does not want that revealed. Dave Kent the new Jack Coleman preceded by the ever enjoyable Steven Peckham. And maybe even Moses (lmc035@gmail.com)
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Let's hear more from people who believe that Nantucket Sound is the wrong place for a wind farm.
Why is Horseshoe Shoal too valuable a place to develop?
Why is Horseshoe Shoal too valuable a place to develop?
dolphin [Member] writes:
Speaking of value..."An open letter to Dave Kent. Do you now or have you ever received any form of compensation or remuneration from Cape Cod Today for your services?
bittersweet [Member] writes:
No fair! I asked buzz first.
And you for that matter dolphin, maverick bobcat....
And there are more.
So, if one has to answer, you all do.
AND while you're at it...any political affiliations you get money from?
And you for that matter dolphin, maverick bobcat....
And there are more.
So, if one has to answer, you all do.
AND while you're at it...any political affiliations you get money from?
Buzz [Member] writes:
bitter,
Are you really asking me if I get paid by CC Today?
Are you really asking me if I get paid by CC Today?
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
There is damage done to the sound on a regular basis, the dragging done by jet nozzles that really rapes the bottom of horse shoe shoals.
By putting 130 turbines in, the largest of the dragger's will have to scour some other part of the Sound, but at least that little part will know more peace.
So if you love the Sound, the only choice of both heart & mind is a wind farm.
A Coal fired plant would be wrong there, atomic power would be wrong, an oil platform would be wrong there, but since it has some of the best wind resource along the East coast, protected from huge waves from the islands, close to where the power is used, it is a perfect place for a wind farm.
All the pollution avoided from electricity for 75% of the cape homes, that would make anyone but a shill breath easier.
Shill's use complicated math like 2 + 2 = 5 to prove that even if we use wind for power, we will still have the same amount of pollution.
Please donate any extra money you have to teach these poor, math challenged people how reality really works.
It's not too late!
Nothing to fear but fear itself.
By putting 130 turbines in, the largest of the dragger's will have to scour some other part of the Sound, but at least that little part will know more peace.
So if you love the Sound, the only choice of both heart & mind is a wind farm.
A Coal fired plant would be wrong there, atomic power would be wrong, an oil platform would be wrong there, but since it has some of the best wind resource along the East coast, protected from huge waves from the islands, close to where the power is used, it is a perfect place for a wind farm.
All the pollution avoided from electricity for 75% of the cape homes, that would make anyone but a shill breath easier.
Shill's use complicated math like 2 + 2 = 5 to prove that even if we use wind for power, we will still have the same amount of pollution.
Please donate any extra money you have to teach these poor, math challenged people how reality really works.
It's not too late!
Nothing to fear but fear itself.
CC Rockhopper [Member] writes:
Dave; I guess what is interesting to me is my viewpoint in a whole, some would say I shouldn't say a word since I don't live on the Cape (YET). I come from a mid-west conservative think tank that just has a passion for all things Cape Cod. I can see things from the view point of a will be full time Cape resident, I have the view point of a tourist, and of my father's input, a dihard 82 year old semi-moderate liberal. So when I read all that everyone is passionately putting into this, even some of the "ding a ling" comments, I agree with you that it gets the communication lines going however sometimes strange they may be. Thanks for your input and your tongue in cheek about it. Keep pokin' the pot, someone's bound to jump in and try to take a bath in this stuff or even drink it,,, didn't you say this was laundry day? LOL,,, its all blowing in the wind , have a great day.
Ted from Hyannis Port [Member] writes:
CCToday offered me money, but I missed the contract signing due to an event on one of my properties involving a teenager and the accidental discharge of a firearm.
Honest.
Honest.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
bitter:
The scam called wind energy will not stop digging for coal. Every inch of coal deposits will be dug up and burned. If we choose not to burn it, the Chinese will be happy to burn it to advance their economy while we damage ours.
What you fail to understand is that wind is not a substitute for coal, oil, and nuclear. That is what Europe’s 20 year experiment with wind teaches.
No mater how many turbines we install, none of our conventional power plants will be replaced. None!
The scam called wind energy will not stop digging for coal. Every inch of coal deposits will be dug up and burned. If we choose not to burn it, the Chinese will be happy to burn it to advance their economy while we damage ours.
What you fail to understand is that wind is not a substitute for coal, oil, and nuclear. That is what Europe’s 20 year experiment with wind teaches.
No mater how many turbines we install, none of our conventional power plants will be replaced. None!
bittersweet [Member] writes:
"Are you really asking me if I get paid by CC Today?
With you, it's more in lines of political affiliations.
MOST definately Republican oriented, and also you seem to be on the Zionist side of things,,,and i know for a fact they pay people to search sites,and schill the pro-Israel, anti-muslim line. Just wondering, as rat would say.
And lordy-be....
Repubs had a press conference yesterday...geuss what energy they will go along with? Since nothing gets done unless it's bi-partisan, huh? Like they showed us during their reign huh? wink wink--you betcha!
*Off-shore drilling, nukular and clean coal (no such thing).*
That's it folks...those are the options they deem worthy oh mighty ones!!!
Well, isn't that special? And soooooo very predictable!
What forward-thinkers!!
And way to get us off dirty energy!
But way to keep the profits flowing exactly where they always go.
As the little mouse from Alaska says, "How's that hope-y change-y thing workin for ya?
This is no hope and no change. Just repub business as usual
No thanks! We voted you out!
With you, it's more in lines of political affiliations.
MOST definately Republican oriented, and also you seem to be on the Zionist side of things,,,and i know for a fact they pay people to search sites,and schill the pro-Israel, anti-muslim line. Just wondering, as rat would say.
And lordy-be....
Repubs had a press conference yesterday...geuss what energy they will go along with? Since nothing gets done unless it's bi-partisan, huh? Like they showed us during their reign huh? wink wink--you betcha!
*Off-shore drilling, nukular and clean coal (no such thing).*
That's it folks...those are the options they deem worthy oh mighty ones!!!
Well, isn't that special? And soooooo very predictable!
What forward-thinkers!!
And way to get us off dirty energy!
But way to keep the profits flowing exactly where they always go.
As the little mouse from Alaska says, "How's that hope-y change-y thing workin for ya?
This is no hope and no change. Just repub business as usual
No thanks! We voted you out!
lottabaloney [Member] writes:
My personal aesthetic opinion is that the view of an unbroken ocean horizon is boring. I also want to choose the color of my front door.
I don't want some self-appointed "board" telling me they don't approve of my taste in door color, and I don't want some other "board" (self-styled "environmental " or otherwise) making decisions about the efficacy of energy siting on the basis that the view will be "ruined."
I happen to think the windmills are stunningly beautiful and will enhance the southern horizon.
I don't want some self-appointed "board" telling me they don't approve of my taste in door color, and I don't want some other "board" (self-styled "environmental " or otherwise) making decisions about the efficacy of energy siting on the basis that the view will be "ruined."
I happen to think the windmills are stunningly beautiful and will enhance the southern horizon.
jakeskid [Member] writes:
"avoiding technical issues" is a nonsensical concept. Science is what we use to keep from fooling ourselves. With out the empirical facts be careful not to believe everything you think.
lottabaloney [Member] writes:
Bitter - I knew you were a moonbat, but I had no idea you were anti-Semitic too.
And you probably had no problem with Obama giving Chavez $30M of our tax money to drill off the shore of HIS country (or that the profits from his operation may benefit the apocalyptic designs of that Iranian madman).
You scare the shit our of me, lady.
And you probably had no problem with Obama giving Chavez $30M of our tax money to drill off the shore of HIS country (or that the profits from his operation may benefit the apocalyptic designs of that Iranian madman).
You scare the shit our of me, lady.
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
So Jim Gordon lied (about?)
He fooled Deval Patrick, the old MMS director, Ken Salazar, National Grid, the Coast Guard, Audubon Society, the Mass Facilities Siting Board, The Army Corp, Ian A. Bowles, Woods Hole Research, etc, etc, etc...
But Dolphin, NFW and Bobcat all stand firmly in the know with SOS.
Good work fellows (& ladies)
The truth has reliable guardians in you.
On behalf of all the truth seekers out there, you guys are an inspiration!
He fooled Deval Patrick, the old MMS director, Ken Salazar, National Grid, the Coast Guard, Audubon Society, the Mass Facilities Siting Board, The Army Corp, Ian A. Bowles, Woods Hole Research, etc, etc, etc...
But Dolphin, NFW and Bobcat all stand firmly in the know with SOS.
Good work fellows (& ladies)
The truth has reliable guardians in you.
On behalf of all the truth seekers out there, you guys are an inspiration!
Buzz [Member] writes:
bitter,
Hope this helps you out. I get paid by no one to blog or do anything on the internet. I'm a registered Independent.
The only thing that keeps me coming here is to be entertained by your twisted logic and paranoid conspiracy theories... I enjoy it.
It just confuses me why anyone with just $ 7 in their checking account, would spend so much meaningless time on a blog site.
Thanks for being you:)
Hope this helps you out. I get paid by no one to blog or do anything on the internet. I'm a registered Independent.
The only thing that keeps me coming here is to be entertained by your twisted logic and paranoid conspiracy theories... I enjoy it.
It just confuses me why anyone with just $ 7 in their checking account, would spend so much meaningless time on a blog site.
Thanks for being you:)
Ted from Hyannis Port [Member] writes:
S*it, Carl... I lied to more people than that on a GOOD day.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
Jim Gordon didn't have to lie to anybody. Deval Patrick wants 25% of the state’s energy to come from wind. Salazar is on record saying there is enough offshore wind energy to replace all the coal power plants in the US. The rest all believe that wind is the answer to our future need for energy.
Why would Gordon have to lie? He becomes a savior simply be telling them what they want to hear..
Now, if wind energy was equal to the task, then we would all be happy as clams. The problem is that wind is now exposed in Europe to be expensive and ineffective, and we need to let them know, before they cause any damage.
http://rogerhelmermep.wordpress.com/2009/10/15/the-wind-farm-scam/
Why would Gordon have to lie? He becomes a savior simply be telling them what they want to hear..
Now, if wind energy was equal to the task, then we would all be happy as clams. The problem is that wind is now exposed in Europe to be expensive and ineffective, and we need to let them know, before they cause any damage.
http://rogerhelmermep.wordpress.com/2009/10/15/the-wind-farm-scam/
gonzo [Member] writes:
Many important issues/reasons not to built the wind farm in Nantucket Sound.
Natural disasters are the most important in my view i.e. Hurricanes, sea ice, and now I hear about freeze ups in California's wind mills.
Natural disasters are the most important in my view i.e. Hurricanes, sea ice, and now I hear about freeze ups in California's wind mills.
bobcat87 [Member] writes:
Nor do I get paid, but nice try with the conspiracy theory.
frommaine [Member] writes:
Please see www.windaction.org for the real news on windfarms.
capecrusader [Member] writes:
http://www.northnet.org/brvmug/WindPower/
so nofreewind can stop posting useless pdf's here are all of them in the directory.
Wind will never replace any other form of electricity generation...but then again neither will coal, gas nuke etc
Our demand is outstripping our building of all types of power plants. Wind in the long run wont really change the cost of electricity or how we purchase electricity. Even at 20% installed capacity wind would raise our price by nor more than 5%-10%... dont make me explain transmission costs, fuel costs, bid pricing etc..
Ive had enough of the "will double electric cost" crowd...those reports are just wrong. In the not too distanst future we on cape cod will be switching over to a smart grid. In short a smart grid will allow us to be smart with our electric usage by controlling when I wash my dishes, clothes or heat and cool my home.
Hows the maritime turbine doing??
so nofreewind can stop posting useless pdf's here are all of them in the directory.
Wind will never replace any other form of electricity generation...but then again neither will coal, gas nuke etc
Our demand is outstripping our building of all types of power plants. Wind in the long run wont really change the cost of electricity or how we purchase electricity. Even at 20% installed capacity wind would raise our price by nor more than 5%-10%... dont make me explain transmission costs, fuel costs, bid pricing etc..
Ive had enough of the "will double electric cost" crowd...those reports are just wrong. In the not too distanst future we on cape cod will be switching over to a smart grid. In short a smart grid will allow us to be smart with our electric usage by controlling when I wash my dishes, clothes or heat and cool my home.
Hows the maritime turbine doing??
dolphin [Member] writes:
frommaine...thanks.
http://www.windaction.org/news/25531
http://www.windaction.org/news/25531
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Jakeskid,
You say:
------
"avoiding technical issues" is a nonsensical concept. Science is what we use to keep from fooling ourselves. With out the empirical facts be careful not to believe everything you think.
------
I agree completely, except for the fact that it’s not possible to quantify everything in life: In this case how people value the beauty of Nantucket Sound.
All I’m trying to do in this thread is take a brief break from the technical talk and have people tell us why they value the Sound’s beauty.
You say:
------
"avoiding technical issues" is a nonsensical concept. Science is what we use to keep from fooling ourselves. With out the empirical facts be careful not to believe everything you think.
------
I agree completely, except for the fact that it’s not possible to quantify everything in life: In this case how people value the beauty of Nantucket Sound.
All I’m trying to do in this thread is take a brief break from the technical talk and have people tell us why they value the Sound’s beauty.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
I'll make a quick dive back into "technical talk" to say something that I've said to Gonzo a half dozen times. Unfortunately, it's not penetrating.
I have one word for Gonzo when he complains about natural disasters: "Insurance".
Believe it or not, Gonzo, it works.
I have one word for Gonzo when he complains about natural disasters: "Insurance".
Believe it or not, Gonzo, it works.
Ted from Hyannis Port [Member] writes:
Cru... MMA's turbine is still standing as of today... I can see it from my cottage, and will be curious to see if it falls under heavy snow/winds.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
Capecrusader says:
“In short a smart grid will allow us to be smart with our electric usage by controlling when I wash my dishes, clothes or heat and cool my home.”
I don’t know about anyone else, but I do not think America is ever going to accept smart grids that control when we wash, or heat and cool our homes. Can you imagine your dishwasher telling you “Sorry I can’t wash the dishes until tomorrow when the wind might be stronger”?
Add to that the latest wacked solution to taming the fickle wind, the battery powered electric car. Before you can schedule a trip you will first have to consult with your car. The car will then consult with the smart grid to see if there is enough wind power available for your trip. Of course the importance of your trip must be factored into all this, and I am sure VIPs will always get preference.
It will never happen. Cape Wind will become an orphan.
“In short a smart grid will allow us to be smart with our electric usage by controlling when I wash my dishes, clothes or heat and cool my home.”
I don’t know about anyone else, but I do not think America is ever going to accept smart grids that control when we wash, or heat and cool our homes. Can you imagine your dishwasher telling you “Sorry I can’t wash the dishes until tomorrow when the wind might be stronger”?
Add to that the latest wacked solution to taming the fickle wind, the battery powered electric car. Before you can schedule a trip you will first have to consult with your car. The car will then consult with the smart grid to see if there is enough wind power available for your trip. Of course the importance of your trip must be factored into all this, and I am sure VIPs will always get preference.
It will never happen. Cape Wind will become an orphan.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
NFW,
I'm pretty sure that, if you look into it, you'll find that Capecrusader's mention of a smart grid means simply that electricity will be cheaper at non-peak times. That is, we'll be able to take advantage of lower rates at certain times but we'll retain freedom of choice.
You saw this as some dive into Soviet style central planning? Hmmm....
I'm pretty sure that, if you look into it, you'll find that Capecrusader's mention of a smart grid means simply that electricity will be cheaper at non-peak times. That is, we'll be able to take advantage of lower rates at certain times but we'll retain freedom of choice.
You saw this as some dive into Soviet style central planning? Hmmm....
Dick Farley [Member] writes:
The latest CW electricity cost study, released today, is illustrative of Cape Wind's economic sense in the context of a regional mix of electricity sources.
Cape Wind's installation, and what is learned from its operation, will enhance and encourage energy diversity, very important in our nation's strategic balance for power generation.
With the collapse of climate hysteria, and the certainty that coal, Marcellus Shale and other gas, offshore drilling and (as even Obama hinted) increases in nuclear power, all will advance, Cape Wind will stand as a mostly privately financed "test bed," while giving Cape & Island residents another electricity source.
Costs will reconcile with upward prices of electricity which, besides being an economic reality, reflect one of even Obama's campaign promises: "Under my plan, electricity prices will skyrocket."
Subsidies, both financially via tax breaks and with licensing of public lands for facility siting, reflect a national policy initiative toward diversification of power sources and enhancing our future learning curve.
Cape Wind's installation, and what is learned from its operation, will enhance and encourage energy diversity, very important in our nation's strategic balance for power generation.
With the collapse of climate hysteria, and the certainty that coal, Marcellus Shale and other gas, offshore drilling and (as even Obama hinted) increases in nuclear power, all will advance, Cape Wind will stand as a mostly privately financed "test bed," while giving Cape & Island residents another electricity source.
Costs will reconcile with upward prices of electricity which, besides being an economic reality, reflect one of even Obama's campaign promises: "Under my plan, electricity prices will skyrocket."
Subsidies, both financially via tax breaks and with licensing of public lands for facility siting, reflect a national policy initiative toward diversification of power sources and enhancing our future learning curve.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
I am pointing out the obvious. To make wind work you need government mandates. The present mandate will more than double the cost of electricity. The next one would have to be about forcing people to use it.
I say it will never get that far. Wind farms will be abandoned when it becomes obvious that they are counter productive, and the need for a smart grid will not materialize.
For proof I offer the underutilized market for renewable energy offered by NSTAR and others. People will not voluntarily pay extra for renewable energy.
I say it will never get that far. Wind farms will be abandoned when it becomes obvious that they are counter productive, and the need for a smart grid will not materialize.
For proof I offer the underutilized market for renewable energy offered by NSTAR and others. People will not voluntarily pay extra for renewable energy.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Dick Farley,
I like 2 things that you said:
1. "what is learned from its operation"
2. "diversification of power sources"
It's very common for people to treat Cape Wind as some huge step over a cliff into massive use of offshore wind. Of course, that's wrong. CW would be our very first offshore wind farm and we will learn a great deal from it. One excellent example of this learning which has nothing to do with economics is: We'll be able to see for ourselves how these things look. And we'll obviously learn a great deal about how such a wind farm can fit into a grid and into our economic model.
It's also very common for people to oppose Cape Wind and Wind in general because it won't solve all of our problems. Your mention of "diversification" highlights how Wind will be just one of a number of new sources of power.
Thanks for the balanced input.
I like 2 things that you said:
1. "what is learned from its operation"
2. "diversification of power sources"
It's very common for people to treat Cape Wind as some huge step over a cliff into massive use of offshore wind. Of course, that's wrong. CW would be our very first offshore wind farm and we will learn a great deal from it. One excellent example of this learning which has nothing to do with economics is: We'll be able to see for ourselves how these things look. And we'll obviously learn a great deal about how such a wind farm can fit into a grid and into our economic model.
It's also very common for people to oppose Cape Wind and Wind in general because it won't solve all of our problems. Your mention of "diversification" highlights how Wind will be just one of a number of new sources of power.
Thanks for the balanced input.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
In my last post, I highlighted 2 advantages of Cape Wind:
1. We’ll learn from it
2. A new offshore wind industry would diversify our power generation.
Some may debate that those are advantages. But let’s say for a minute that they are. The purpose of this whole blog was to highlight the main argument on the other side of the argument: The sound is beautiful and should be preserved.
Making a personal decision on the project involves balancing pros against cons. Using my last post as an example:
Learning and diversification versus Preserving the Sound
Each of us should try to see arguments on both sides and then use our personal values to balance or weigh the two sides.
1. We’ll learn from it
2. A new offshore wind industry would diversify our power generation.
Some may debate that those are advantages. But let’s say for a minute that they are. The purpose of this whole blog was to highlight the main argument on the other side of the argument: The sound is beautiful and should be preserved.
Making a personal decision on the project involves balancing pros against cons. Using my last post as an example:
Learning and diversification versus Preserving the Sound
Each of us should try to see arguments on both sides and then use our personal values to balance or weigh the two sides.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
Capecrusader, here is one that is not on your list.
http://www.cps.org.uk/cps_catalog/CPS_assets/685_ProductPreviewFile.pdf
You do not need to build a wind farm in Nantucket Sound to learn about wind. All you need do is read, and benefit from other people’s mistakes. The only reason to diversify our energy sources is to reduce cost and preserve resources. Wind energy will increase the cost and facilitate the sale of our resources to foreign entities to our detriment.
http://www.cps.org.uk/cps_catalog/CPS_assets/685_ProductPreviewFile.pdf
You do not need to build a wind farm in Nantucket Sound to learn about wind. All you need do is read, and benefit from other people’s mistakes. The only reason to diversify our energy sources is to reduce cost and preserve resources. Wind energy will increase the cost and facilitate the sale of our resources to foreign entities to our detriment.
Carl B. Freeman [Member] writes:
You have to build a windfarm in Nantucket Sound if you want wind to work, which you obviously DO NOT.
From a factual point of view, I will only call Nofreewind 'happy clam' now.
Ergo, Nofreewind states:"Now, if wind energy was equal to the task, then we would all be happy as clams"
Wind continues to be a viable energy source for those who know how to figure out a ROI, meaning you look at the costs of energy over time.
When you do this the 'happy clam' effect comes into play.
When you take hysterical snap shots of skewed numbers , well, you start to enter into: the SHILL ZONE!
If you figure the # of deaths & sickness per mega watt of wind power, compared to oil, coal, natural gas, well the scales tip even more. Add the locally generated power and the jobs with wind, the scales are bouncing on the floor now.
You would have to be PAID to really think wind power makes you a loser.
Look at Denmark and tell me if those people aren't healthy & happy.
Wake up, this is not a dress rehearsal.
Every breath is another chance to do the right thing.
From a factual point of view, I will only call Nofreewind 'happy clam' now.
Ergo, Nofreewind states:"Now, if wind energy was equal to the task, then we would all be happy as clams"
Wind continues to be a viable energy source for those who know how to figure out a ROI, meaning you look at the costs of energy over time.
When you do this the 'happy clam' effect comes into play.
When you take hysterical snap shots of skewed numbers , well, you start to enter into: the SHILL ZONE!
If you figure the # of deaths & sickness per mega watt of wind power, compared to oil, coal, natural gas, well the scales tip even more. Add the locally generated power and the jobs with wind, the scales are bouncing on the floor now.
You would have to be PAID to really think wind power makes you a loser.
Look at Denmark and tell me if those people aren't healthy & happy.
Wake up, this is not a dress rehearsal.
Every breath is another chance to do the right thing.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
Read this again, and then tell us why the Danes are so happy to pay more for nothing?
"Flemming Nissen, the head of development at West Danish generating company ELSAM (one of Denmark’s largest energy utilities) tells us that “wind turbines do not reduce carbon dioxide emissions.” The German experience is no different. Der Spiegel reports that “Germany’s CO2 emissions haven’t been reduced by even a single gram,” and additional coal- and gas-fired plants have been constructed to ensure reliable delivery."
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2009/04/08/wind-power-is-a-complete-disaster.aspx
"Flemming Nissen, the head of development at West Danish generating company ELSAM (one of Denmark’s largest energy utilities) tells us that “wind turbines do not reduce carbon dioxide emissions.” The German experience is no different. Der Spiegel reports that “Germany’s CO2 emissions haven’t been reduced by even a single gram,” and additional coal- and gas-fired plants have been constructed to ensure reliable delivery."
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2009/04/08/wind-power-is-a-complete-disaster.aspx
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Let’s say that I built a house 10 years ago & the builder that I used billed on a cost-plus basis. Let’s say that I had a bad experience with that house because the cost of the house spiraled out of control.
Now let’s say that I’m building another house but I’m hiring a builder willing to work under a set, contract price.
To what degree would my experience from the first house apply to the second house? Most of what I learned in my first house would apply (the basics of building a house). But would everything apply? No, especially in the area of total cost.
This is how we should view European experience with Wind Power. We can learn a lot from it. However, just as the 2 house projects differed in an important way, the U.S. experience will differ in important ways from Europe’s. The largest reason for this is the fact that Europe & the U.S. use totally different economic approaches. Europe uses much more government direction. Here, we rely much more on the market.
So, should we learn from Europe? Yes. Does it completely define our future? No.
Now let’s say that I’m building another house but I’m hiring a builder willing to work under a set, contract price.
To what degree would my experience from the first house apply to the second house? Most of what I learned in my first house would apply (the basics of building a house). But would everything apply? No, especially in the area of total cost.
This is how we should view European experience with Wind Power. We can learn a lot from it. However, just as the 2 house projects differed in an important way, the U.S. experience will differ in important ways from Europe’s. The largest reason for this is the fact that Europe & the U.S. use totally different economic approaches. Europe uses much more government direction. Here, we rely much more on the market.
So, should we learn from Europe? Yes. Does it completely define our future? No.
dolphin [Member] writes:
Carl..."When you do this the 'happy clam' effect comes into play."
"happy clam effect"? Haven't met a happy clam. They were all going into the steamer.
Preacher...are you starting a new worship based on clams? Are quahogs allowed entry into your ministry. Will quahogs and clams be allowed to marry?
If Cape Wind interferes with clam intercourse might I file a lawsuit?
"Carl the clammy preacher"...has a nice ring to it.
"happy clam effect"? Haven't met a happy clam. They were all going into the steamer.
Preacher...are you starting a new worship based on clams? Are quahogs allowed entry into your ministry. Will quahogs and clams be allowed to marry?
If Cape Wind interferes with clam intercourse might I file a lawsuit?
"Carl the clammy preacher"...has a nice ring to it.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
What if 10 people built houses using some new materials reputed to work as well as traditional materials, and all ten fell apart.
What do you have to learn from building your hose with the same stuff?
What do you have to learn from building your hose with the same stuff?
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
NFW,
It could be the materials. Or it could be the building techniques. Or it could be where the houses were built.
If one jumped to a conclusion without thinking one could draw the wrong conclusion.
The point: One has to think. I highly recommend it NFW.
It could be the materials. Or it could be the building techniques. Or it could be where the houses were built.
If one jumped to a conclusion without thinking one could draw the wrong conclusion.
The point: One has to think. I highly recommend it NFW.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
Dave:
Your approach does not require thinking. It only requires hope.
My approach is based on logic and evidence. It is the basis of science, while your approach is based on false illusion. The illusion needed to save the planet from Global Warming. I’m not sure the Global Warming movement will survive this winter’s record blizzards even if you change the name to Climate Change.
Your approach does not require thinking. It only requires hope.
My approach is based on logic and evidence. It is the basis of science, while your approach is based on false illusion. The illusion needed to save the planet from Global Warming. I’m not sure the Global Warming movement will survive this winter’s record blizzards even if you change the name to Climate Change.
dolphin [Member] writes:
Dave...are we talking about home construction or wind factories? Haven't seen a home on Horseshoe Shoals since the last ice age.
I simply asked if you now receive or have ever received compensation or remuneration from Cape Cod Today?
Yes or No?
I simply asked if you now receive or have ever received compensation or remuneration from Cape Cod Today?
Yes or No?
bittersweet [Member] writes:
1970 - Zbigniew Brzezinski writes a book entitled "Between Two Ages."
"Technology will make available to the leaders of major nations a variety of techniques for conducting secret warfare, of which only a bare minimum of security forces need be appraised. One nation may attack a competitor covertly...techniques of weather modification could be employed to produce prolonged periods of drought or storm, thereby weakening a nation's capacity and forcing it to accept the demands of the competitor."
This was 1970! Think what they can do now. And if anything, it's being manipulated to make us think there is no such thing as global warming.
After all,no global warming, no need to do anything.
No need to pay to clean things up.
No need to stop polluting.
Keep things just the way they are.
"Technology will make available to the leaders of major nations a variety of techniques for conducting secret warfare, of which only a bare minimum of security forces need be appraised. One nation may attack a competitor covertly...techniques of weather modification could be employed to produce prolonged periods of drought or storm, thereby weakening a nation's capacity and forcing it to accept the demands of the competitor."
This was 1970! Think what they can do now. And if anything, it's being manipulated to make us think there is no such thing as global warming.
After all,no global warming, no need to do anything.
No need to pay to clean things up.
No need to stop polluting.
Keep things just the way they are.
Ana Paulina [Member] writes:
The agriculturists in California have only been yelling bloody drought for the last 3 years.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Dolphin,
I'll talk to you once you address the personal slander that you wrote about me on the CRA report thread. See my question there.
I'll talk to you once you address the personal slander that you wrote about me on the CRA report thread. See my question there.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Drudge? Fox? where are you?:
"it comes as little surprise that this January will go down as the warmest in Vancouver history. The 44.8-degree 31-day average easily eclipsed the previous mark of 43.3, set in 2006. Since record-keeping began in 1937, the January average had been 37.9."
The Olympics, and no one's saying anything?
But....it's.....Warming Up!!!!
"it comes as little surprise that this January will go down as the warmest in Vancouver history. The 44.8-degree 31-day average easily eclipsed the previous mark of 43.3, set in 2006. Since record-keeping began in 1937, the January average had been 37.9."
The Olympics, and no one's saying anything?
But....it's.....Warming Up!!!!
dolphin [Member] writes:
Dave...no slander. You have denigrated anyone who has disagreed with your posts on Cape Wind. It started with shoot the message and when some like NFW made great points you started shooting the messenger.
"But NFW is demonstrating that he/she is just plain off the reservation."
Yes or No? Paid or Unpaid? Seems simple enough.
"But NFW is demonstrating that he/she is just plain off the reservation."
Yes or No? Paid or Unpaid? Seems simple enough.
dolphin [Member] writes:
cont..."Barney et. al. were riding minority saddles. Get a brain."
CCToday [Member] writes:
Mr. Kent is one of over 250 bloggers on cc2day.
He receives no compensation for us or from Cape Wind Associates according to their Boston office.
cc2day acts as an Internet Service Provider (ISP) for bloggers and like any other ISP provides a service and enforces no control other than removing slander or libel or personal attacks (either in post or comments) when they are called to our attention.
He receives no compensation for us or from Cape Wind Associates according to their Boston office.
cc2day acts as an Internet Service Provider (ISP) for bloggers and like any other ISP provides a service and enforces no control other than removing slander or libel or personal attacks (either in post or comments) when they are called to our attention.
dolphin [Member] writes:
CCToday...Thanks for answering my question re compensation. Please correct this comment "He receives no compensation for us" to read "from us".
For the record I have provided facts and links since 2006 to support my thoughts. One of which was to introduce dredging to the debate. How did that work out for Jack Coleman?
If you continue to let Dave and Carl ridicule anyone who disagrees with the siting so be it. I owe neither an apology and if they don't like my comments they should ask you to ban me. How do you allow comments like this from Dave K:
"The Alliance and company just doesn’t tell the truth."
"But Parker lied for half an hour. Awful."
Because they have their own opinion which differs from yours they are liars?
You can take your comment..."removing slander or libel or personal attacks (either in post or comments) when they are called to our attention" and shove it where it fits best.
For the record I have provided facts and links since 2006 to support my thoughts. One of which was to introduce dredging to the debate. How did that work out for Jack Coleman?
If you continue to let Dave and Carl ridicule anyone who disagrees with the siting so be it. I owe neither an apology and if they don't like my comments they should ask you to ban me. How do you allow comments like this from Dave K:
"The Alliance and company just doesn’t tell the truth."
"But Parker lied for half an hour. Awful."
Because they have their own opinion which differs from yours they are liars?
You can take your comment..."removing slander or libel or personal attacks (either in post or comments) when they are called to our attention" and shove it where it fits best.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Here's a mini-poll on the opinions of posters on this thread so far:
For Cape Wind: 11
Against Cape Wind: 7
For Cape Wind: 11
Against Cape Wind: 7
dolphin [Member] writes:
CCToday...Thanks for answering my question re compensation. Please correct this comment "He receives no compensation for us" to read "from us".
Is it another WB slip or are you afraid to answer the question?
If DK had any character he would answer it himself.
Is it another WB slip or are you afraid to answer the question?
If DK had any character he would answer it himself.
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About This Blog
Dave Kent is a resident of Falmouth who has been deeply involved in the Cape Wind debate for several years. While he has no professional experience in the energy industry, he has performed a 
great deal of research on Cape Wind, the New England grid/power market, and renewable energy and has had numerous letters printed on those subjects in local newspapers. His goal in this blog is to facilitate civil, balanced and detailed discussion of Cape Wind. He hopes to attract the opinions of professionals from the energy industry.
Mr. Kent, who teaches High School on the Cape, earned a BS from Cornell University and an MBA from Duke University. Before changing careers to teaching, he had a long career in Accounting/Finance and Information Technology, largely in the Insurance Industry.
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And there are a majority who agree when asked in the context that CW will raise rates. But the initial marketing thrust back in 2005-2006 was that Cape Wind would lower electric bills for Cape residents. And it continues in this snippet from their website:
"How would Cape Wind impact electricity prices?
Cape Wind will help to stabilize and even reduce the price of electricity. Cape Wind will do this in 3 ways:
1) Cape Wind will reduce the clearing price for electricity in the New England spot market by reducing operations of the regions most expensive power plants, this will reduce electricity prices in New England by 25 million dollars per year."
Please tell me how CW will lower Cape electric bills when offshore wind has raised them everywhere else in the world?