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Atlantic Coast Governors, meet D.O.I. on offshore wind initiatives
02/21/10 · 8:32 am :: posted by CCToday
Salazar hosts Atlantic Governors at Outer Continental Shelf Wind Energy Summit
Massachusetts, Maine, Maryland, Delaware, Rhode Island and Virginia Governors participate
Secretary of the Interior Ken Salazar hosted a meeting with Governors and representatives of Atlantic Coast states to discuss a regional approach to wind energy development on the U.S. Outer Continental Shelf (OCS) on Friday. In attendance were Governor John Baldacci (Maine), Governor Donald L. Carcieri (Rhode Island), Governor Jack Markell (Delaware), Governor Bob McDonnell (Virginia), Governor Martin O'Malley (Maryland) and Governor Deval Patrick (Massachusetts) joined via phone.
"America's offshore wind potential holds great promise for our clean energy future..."
- Ken Salazar.
"America's offshore wind potential holds great promise for our clean energy future," said Secretary of the Interior Ken Salazar. "A coordinated, region-wide approach to offshore wind will help us move forward with orderly development in the Atlantic OCS. Region-wide planning could foster cooperative approaches to developing the infrastructure necessary to service offshore wind development."
Noting that President Obama has set a high priority on diversifying the nation's energy portfolio, Salazar said offshore wind energy production in the Atlantic offers significant potential for development.
Interior's Minerals Management Services (MMS) has identified several key areas that would benefit from a regional approach to offshore wind development, including strategic siting principles, transmission, environmental planning, and the use of environmental research funds.
Salazar has launched a number of initiatives to help spur responsible development of offshore wind resources.
Salazar has launched a number of initiatives to help spur responsible development of offshore wind resources, including the development of a regulatory framework for offshore renewable energy development. MMS will also be working with Federal agencies and other stakeholders to leverage Federal resources and funding for regional environmental and technical issues and to identify ways to improve the efficiency and predictability of the review and approval process for renewable energy projects.
MMS has already established intergovernmental task forces in seven states to address issues specific to areas off the coasts of those states. The seven states are: Delaware, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island and Virginia. Others are anticipated, including Florida and North Carolina. Through these task forces, the MMS works with Federal, state, local and tribal governments within the state to develop regional approaches to offshore wind development.
106 comments
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Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Beware of people who say that Wind will double the cost of electricity. Or better: Ask them to explain that position.
They, including nofreewind, can't do that.
They, including nofreewind, can't do that.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
Here is my explanation as to how wind energy will more than double the cost of electricity.
We currently have about 30,000 megawatts of conventional power plants. In order to produce a third of that from renewable sources, we will have to add another 30,000 megawatts of renewable energy.
Renewable energy comes from intermittent sources, most of it from wind. It is a well known fact that these sources can only produce about third of their rated capacity.
Bottom line, just to achieve a third of our electricity from clean resources, we will need to double the size of our generating capacity. This will more than double the cost of electricity, and lead to an unstable electric grid that will produce blackouts galore.
The New England economy will end up in the toilet.
From the previously referenced article:
“Wind power, despite the government's best efforts to create a market, continues to be dogged by the same problems it always has: high costs, limited reliability and bad location.”
We currently have about 30,000 megawatts of conventional power plants. In order to produce a third of that from renewable sources, we will have to add another 30,000 megawatts of renewable energy.
Renewable energy comes from intermittent sources, most of it from wind. It is a well known fact that these sources can only produce about third of their rated capacity.
Bottom line, just to achieve a third of our electricity from clean resources, we will need to double the size of our generating capacity. This will more than double the cost of electricity, and lead to an unstable electric grid that will produce blackouts galore.
The New England economy will end up in the toilet.
From the previously referenced article:
“Wind power, despite the government's best efforts to create a market, continues to be dogged by the same problems it always has: high costs, limited reliability and bad location.”
gonzo [Member] writes:
nfw
Right on.... How can a thinking person with a trace of common sense believe the cost WONT go up???
Climate change (warming and cooling) has run it's course. Turns out it's NOT anthropogenic as many would have the naive believe. Re John Coleman on You Tube. for one excellent explanatiion
why beliefs to the contrary are bogus...
Right on.... How can a thinking person with a trace of common sense believe the cost WONT go up???
Climate change (warming and cooling) has run it's course. Turns out it's NOT anthropogenic as many would have the naive believe. Re John Coleman on You Tube. for one excellent explanatiion
why beliefs to the contrary are bogus...
possee [Member] writes:
nfw, gonzo
Given the Obama administrations go ahead for continued war on global warming (despite it's timely demise proven otherwise) , Salazar most likely will approve the wind farm.
Time will tell.
possee
Given the Obama administrations go ahead for continued war on global warming (despite it's timely demise proven otherwise) , Salazar most likely will approve the wind farm.
Time will tell.
possee
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
NFW,
As I’ve told you many times, you miss importance of who owns power plants in this country. Power plants are owned privately. This means that:
- Private owners bear the cost of the extra capacity you describe
- Because the market for power is competitive in NE, these owners cannot just pass that cost onto customers.
If you want to defend your theory please explain how – if I own a 500 MW wind farm that produces 150 MW on average - I will pass the cost required to build and maintain the “extra” 350 MW of capacity onto utilities who will pass it onto customers. If you can do this, I’ll begin to buy into your theory. If you can’t, your theory is not based upon the fundamental characteristics of U.S. power markets.
Can you show how that cost would be born by the public?
As I’ve told you many times, you miss importance of who owns power plants in this country. Power plants are owned privately. This means that:
- Private owners bear the cost of the extra capacity you describe
- Because the market for power is competitive in NE, these owners cannot just pass that cost onto customers.
If you want to defend your theory please explain how – if I own a 500 MW wind farm that produces 150 MW on average - I will pass the cost required to build and maintain the “extra” 350 MW of capacity onto utilities who will pass it onto customers. If you can do this, I’ll begin to buy into your theory. If you can’t, your theory is not based upon the fundamental characteristics of U.S. power markets.
Can you show how that cost would be born by the public?
nofreewind [Member] writes:
Dave:
If the market for wind energy is between private owners as you state, why is Ian Bowles, the state secretary of Energy and Environmental Affairs, concerned that Cape Wind will sign an agreement with National Grid at more than twice the going rate? The fact that National Grid did just that with Deep Water in RI is further proof that the market for wind energy is not just a matter between private companies.
http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100218/NEWS/2180333/-1/SPECIAL01
The fact remains that the market for wind power is created by the state, and the price we pay will be decided by Ian Bowles. Our only hope is that public pushback will derail this very expensive and ineffective attempt to save the world from Global Warming.
If the market for wind energy is between private owners as you state, why is Ian Bowles, the state secretary of Energy and Environmental Affairs, concerned that Cape Wind will sign an agreement with National Grid at more than twice the going rate? The fact that National Grid did just that with Deep Water in RI is further proof that the market for wind energy is not just a matter between private companies.
http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100218/NEWS/2180333/-1/SPECIAL01
The fact remains that the market for wind power is created by the state, and the price we pay will be decided by Ian Bowles. Our only hope is that public pushback will derail this very expensive and ineffective attempt to save the world from Global Warming.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
NFW,
I will address your question about Ian Bowles' letter in a separate post.
But I must point out that you have, once again, dodged this private/public question. How can a private wind farm pass high costs - double costs by your reckoning - for extra capacity onto utilities?
I will address your question about Ian Bowles' letter in a separate post.
But I must point out that you have, once again, dodged this private/public question. How can a private wind farm pass high costs - double costs by your reckoning - for extra capacity onto utilities?
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Everyone,
Nofreewind knows, but he ignores, the reasons why National Grid’s Rhode Island contract are not relevant to Massachusetts. He’s right about one thing: The rates in that contract are outrageously high. But here’s why the contract is not important here:
1. RI forced National Grid into this contract. That has not happened in MA
2. The project is tiny: 8 turbines. It’s a research and development project.
3. It uses never before tested deep water technology
4. National Grid has stated, in writing, that it is willing to pay exorbitant prices for this tiny project but that it WILL NOT pay those prices in the future.
You’ll hear the Alliance, and now NFW, exploit this contract to criticize Wind Power. Don't believe them.
Nofreewind knows, but he ignores, the reasons why National Grid’s Rhode Island contract are not relevant to Massachusetts. He’s right about one thing: The rates in that contract are outrageously high. But here’s why the contract is not important here:
1. RI forced National Grid into this contract. That has not happened in MA
2. The project is tiny: 8 turbines. It’s a research and development project.
3. It uses never before tested deep water technology
4. National Grid has stated, in writing, that it is willing to pay exorbitant prices for this tiny project but that it WILL NOT pay those prices in the future.
You’ll hear the Alliance, and now NFW, exploit this contract to criticize Wind Power. Don't believe them.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
NFW,
I don’t really know why Ian Bowles wrote that letter. He mentioned media references to the expensive Rhode Island contract. So, perhaps this is a public relations thing.
I suspect that he’s covering his butt. I don’t see any reason why National Grid should pay exorbitant prices for Cape Wind Power. But who knows what can happen in a single negotiation? Perhaps Mark Gordon is an incredible negotiator. Perhaps he’s the absolute slime ball some have said and he’ll corrupt the process in some way. It’s hard to tell.
One thing that you really should take heart in here is the following: This is a clear shot across the bows of National Grid and CW saying that the state will not approve an expensive contract like Rhode Island’s. That is, MA is taking the opposite approach of RI which forced a costly contract upon the public. It’s clear that MA won’t stand for that. And that’s a good thing. CW should fail if can’t deliver reasonably priced power.
I don’t really know why Ian Bowles wrote that letter. He mentioned media references to the expensive Rhode Island contract. So, perhaps this is a public relations thing.
I suspect that he’s covering his butt. I don’t see any reason why National Grid should pay exorbitant prices for Cape Wind Power. But who knows what can happen in a single negotiation? Perhaps Mark Gordon is an incredible negotiator. Perhaps he’s the absolute slime ball some have said and he’ll corrupt the process in some way. It’s hard to tell.
One thing that you really should take heart in here is the following: This is a clear shot across the bows of National Grid and CW saying that the state will not approve an expensive contract like Rhode Island’s. That is, MA is taking the opposite approach of RI which forced a costly contract upon the public. It’s clear that MA won’t stand for that. And that’s a good thing. CW should fail if can’t deliver reasonably priced power.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
Dave:
You ask ”How can a private wind farm pass high costs - double costs by your reckoning - for extra capacity onto utilities?”
The answer is simple. The law gives Ian Bowles the power to impose it. I am hoping he will come to his senses long before the costs double. Of course, this will probably be after Cape Wind becomes operational.
The 130 400 foot wind turbines in Nantucket Sound will become a permanent memorial to our policymakers’ stupidity.
You ask ”How can a private wind farm pass high costs - double costs by your reckoning - for extra capacity onto utilities?”
The answer is simple. The law gives Ian Bowles the power to impose it. I am hoping he will come to his senses long before the costs double. Of course, this will probably be after Cape Wind becomes operational.
The 130 400 foot wind turbines in Nantucket Sound will become a permanent memorial to our policymakers’ stupidity.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
Dave:
You tell people not to believe me.
I claim that the sate controls the price we will pay for wind energy.
Then you say “RI forced National Grid into this contract.”
I am not concerned about my credibility. How about you?
You tell people not to believe me.
I claim that the sate controls the price we will pay for wind energy.
Then you say “RI forced National Grid into this contract.”
I am not concerned about my credibility. How about you?
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
NFW,
Please point out what part of MA law gives Ian Bowles the right to impose prices on purchase price agreements.
Now, you won't find this. So my second question is: Why do you say things like that, that is, things that are not based in fact?
Please point out what part of MA law gives Ian Bowles the right to impose prices on purchase price agreements.
Now, you won't find this. So my second question is: Why do you say things like that, that is, things that are not based in fact?
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Last time I looked, NFW, Rhode Island and Massachusetts are different states. I'm pretty sure that's a credible statement.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
The subject of the article is:
Atlantic Coast Governors, meet D.O.I. on offshore wind initiatives.
Massachusetts, Maine, Maryland, Delaware, Rhode Island and Virginia Governors participate
Tell me again how MA and RI are different. If these guys were in the private sector, they would be charged with price fixing conspiracy.
From my previously referenced article:
"It's a market, but it's a government-created market,"
It’s called a Mandate.
Atlantic Coast Governors, meet D.O.I. on offshore wind initiatives.
Massachusetts, Maine, Maryland, Delaware, Rhode Island and Virginia Governors participate
Tell me again how MA and RI are different. If these guys were in the private sector, they would be charged with price fixing conspiracy.
From my previously referenced article:
"It's a market, but it's a government-created market,"
It’s called a Mandate.
Chuck Kleekamp [Member] writes:
On Wind and the Price
NE has a generation capacity of about 34,000 MW. But it only uses on the average about half that. For example, yesterday the peak load was some 16,000 MW according to ISO NE. The addition of wind power, or any other renewable source power, will reduce the output of fossil fueled generators by the same amount. It is the replacement of fossil fuels for generating electricity that is at the heart of the argument for renewables. There will be no need for additional fossil capacity until the wind resource reaches about 20% of the total capacity, and that can accommodate many, many offshore windfarms as well as land based wind turbines without increasing the cost to consumers.
On must realize that wind must compete with all other renewable sources. National Gird is not obligated to buy just from Cape Wind, there are many other renewable providers.
If National Grid were to double the cost to its retail customers because of a Cape Wind deal, most customers would switch to an alternative supplier like Dominion Retail.
NE has a generation capacity of about 34,000 MW. But it only uses on the average about half that. For example, yesterday the peak load was some 16,000 MW according to ISO NE. The addition of wind power, or any other renewable source power, will reduce the output of fossil fueled generators by the same amount. It is the replacement of fossil fuels for generating electricity that is at the heart of the argument for renewables. There will be no need for additional fossil capacity until the wind resource reaches about 20% of the total capacity, and that can accommodate many, many offshore windfarms as well as land based wind turbines without increasing the cost to consumers.
On must realize that wind must compete with all other renewable sources. National Gird is not obligated to buy just from Cape Wind, there are many other renewable providers.
If National Grid were to double the cost to its retail customers because of a Cape Wind deal, most customers would switch to an alternative supplier like Dominion Retail.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
The addition of wind resources will increase the cost of electricity because wind increases generation capacity without increasing Capacity Value. The important factor is the maximum generation capacity that can be called upon when needed. Since the wind cannot be counted upon to be available during maximum demand, the present generation capacity must remain in tact. Therefore, every wind turbine that is added to the grid is added at additional cost to the ratepayer.
National Grid can afford to pay extra for wind energy and stay competitive because competitors who fail to supply renewable energy are subject to a fine by the state.
National Grid can afford to pay extra for wind energy and stay competitive because competitors who fail to supply renewable energy are subject to a fine by the state.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
NFW,
Let's say you and I run similar businesses but that I pay much higher rent than you do. My costs of doing business are higher. Can I pass the costs onto my customers? Nope. You will outcompete me. The price that I charge is driven by Supply & Demand not by my costs.
The cost of the extra capacity you mention for a wind farm is a cost of business of its private owner. Just like my rent. Compared to fossil plants this is a disadvantage. Of course, wind farms have advantages too: Most notably, the fact that they have no fuel cost. And that’s the largest cost of fossil fuel plants. Having no fuel cost is a huge cost advantage. It offsets the extra cost of maintaining extra capacity. Fossil plants and wind plants have different economic models.
The fact that, behind the point where a wind farm connects to the grid, resides extra privately owned capacity is irrelevant. It just affects the income statement of some private company. The public does not pay for this capacity.
To win this argument you’ve gotta show how the public bears the cost to maintain that capacity.
Let's say you and I run similar businesses but that I pay much higher rent than you do. My costs of doing business are higher. Can I pass the costs onto my customers? Nope. You will outcompete me. The price that I charge is driven by Supply & Demand not by my costs.
The cost of the extra capacity you mention for a wind farm is a cost of business of its private owner. Just like my rent. Compared to fossil plants this is a disadvantage. Of course, wind farms have advantages too: Most notably, the fact that they have no fuel cost. And that’s the largest cost of fossil fuel plants. Having no fuel cost is a huge cost advantage. It offsets the extra cost of maintaining extra capacity. Fossil plants and wind plants have different economic models.
The fact that, behind the point where a wind farm connects to the grid, resides extra privately owned capacity is irrelevant. It just affects the income statement of some private company. The public does not pay for this capacity.
To win this argument you’ve gotta show how the public bears the cost to maintain that capacity.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
According to Robert Bradley who spent 16 years at Enron working for Ken Lay, the market for electricity claims to be deregulated — though many proponents now prefer the euphemism "restructured" — the market remains partially regulated, creating a huge profit-making opportunity for generators while leaving consumers with higher bills and more risk.
He said:
"It's a market, but it's a government-created market it's something very different than deregulation”
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/steffy/5817644.html
Continuing to say that wind will compete in a free market just does not apply.
Furthermore, as I have come to understand, while we pay for electricity by the kilowatt-hour, National Grid and its competitors buy electricity based on the capacity they will need to supply to keep our lights on. This makes the fact that, behind the point where a wind farm connects to the grid, resides extra privately owned capacity highly relevant, because that capacity cannot be retired and must be constantly supported by passing the cost to the ratepayer.
He said:
"It's a market, but it's a government-created market it's something very different than deregulation”
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/steffy/5817644.html
Continuing to say that wind will compete in a free market just does not apply.
Furthermore, as I have come to understand, while we pay for electricity by the kilowatt-hour, National Grid and its competitors buy electricity based on the capacity they will need to supply to keep our lights on. This makes the fact that, behind the point where a wind farm connects to the grid, resides extra privately owned capacity highly relevant, because that capacity cannot be retired and must be constantly supported by passing the cost to the ratepayer.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
NFW,
A utility such as National Grid cares about 2 things when negotiating with a power generator: How much power can be delivered and at what price. That’s it.
If National Grid is negotiating to buy 100 MW of power from Cape Wind they don’t care that Cape Wind’s total capacity is 480 MW.
You say that they do care. Why? If you're negotiating with a Ford dealer over a car, do you care how big their plant is? Of course not.
You're bending over so far backwards to win this argument, you're head is touching behind you. Why must you say such silly things?
A utility such as National Grid cares about 2 things when negotiating with a power generator: How much power can be delivered and at what price. That’s it.
If National Grid is negotiating to buy 100 MW of power from Cape Wind they don’t care that Cape Wind’s total capacity is 480 MW.
You say that they do care. Why? If you're negotiating with a Ford dealer over a car, do you care how big their plant is? Of course not.
You're bending over so far backwards to win this argument, you're head is touching behind you. Why must you say such silly things?
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
NFW,
You've never explained your contention that Ian Bowles can "impose" power prices. Are you going to defend that?
You've never explained your contention that Ian Bowles can "impose" power prices. Are you going to defend that?
nofreewind [Member] writes:
From the CCT article:
"The state Department of Public Utilities must sign off on any agreement between Cape Wind and National Grid."
I assume this gives Ian Bowles the authority he needs.
"The state Department of Public Utilities must sign off on any agreement between Cape Wind and National Grid."
I assume this gives Ian Bowles the authority he needs.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
Dave You Say:
"You're bending over so far backwards to win this argument, you're head is touching behind you. Why must you say such silly things?"
I say "same to you" if you think the buying of electricity is the same buying a ford. Go back and read what I said then ask someone to explain it to you.
"You're bending over so far backwards to win this argument, you're head is touching behind you. Why must you say such silly things?"
I say "same to you" if you think the buying of electricity is the same buying a ford. Go back and read what I said then ask someone to explain it to you.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Boy--you people who oppsoe wind really drink the Beck-Juice don't you?
It's not fear of global warming that drives this.
It's clean,renewable,smart enery.
It's lessening the pollution.
"America's offshore wind potential holds great promise for our clean energy future," said Secretary of the Interior Ken Salazar.
No mention of the big bad boogie-man global warming...kind of like bin-laden to you huh? Bring it up whenever YOU want to fear-monger.
You act like just now people started worrying about the effect industry was having on the earth and the environment.
It's been a long time coming!
And it's people like you all who always want to obstruct change that get in the way.
You want to bring up cost...go ahead!
Explain why oil goes down a barrell, but the cost to us goes up?
Why is that?
You think the oil and gas industry cares a whit about you?
Joking right?
Sorry-but anything bad you can bring up about wind has already been done ten-fold by oil.
Only difference is you are going on conjecture.
We have all the proof we need about the damage of oil and gas and coal.
You don't know.
It's not fear of global warming that drives this.
It's clean,renewable,smart enery.
It's lessening the pollution.
"America's offshore wind potential holds great promise for our clean energy future," said Secretary of the Interior Ken Salazar.
No mention of the big bad boogie-man global warming...kind of like bin-laden to you huh? Bring it up whenever YOU want to fear-monger.
You act like just now people started worrying about the effect industry was having on the earth and the environment.
It's been a long time coming!
And it's people like you all who always want to obstruct change that get in the way.
You want to bring up cost...go ahead!
Explain why oil goes down a barrell, but the cost to us goes up?
Why is that?
You think the oil and gas industry cares a whit about you?
Joking right?
Sorry-but anything bad you can bring up about wind has already been done ten-fold by oil.
Only difference is you are going on conjecture.
We have all the proof we need about the damage of oil and gas and coal.
You don't know.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
bitter:
Here is something that will interest you.
http://alleghenytreasures.wordpress.com/2010/01/25/robert-bryce-says-industrial-wind-business-is-a-scam-from-beginning-to-end-wvideo/
Here is something that will interest you.
http://alleghenytreasures.wordpress.com/2010/01/25/robert-bryce-says-industrial-wind-business-is-a-scam-from-beginning-to-end-wvideo/
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
You've given us a classic example of what happens when one assumes.
Someone in the State government, probably not Ian Bowles but someone, must approve any PPA signed between a power generator and a utility. For example Cape Wind and National Grid. The purpose of this approval step is to protect the public from unacceptable agreements, basically ones with excessively high prices. So, the State can strike down a PPA. But nowhere in there does the state “impose” prices. Shoot down excessively high prices? Yes. Set them? No.
And, before you say that this is just semantics, recall how all of this came up. I said that a power generator with high costs can’t charge high prices because the market is competitive. You disagreed saying that “the price we pay will be decided by Ian Bowles”
That is dead wrong. You’ve dreamed this up.
Someone in the State government, probably not Ian Bowles but someone, must approve any PPA signed between a power generator and a utility. For example Cape Wind and National Grid. The purpose of this approval step is to protect the public from unacceptable agreements, basically ones with excessively high prices. So, the State can strike down a PPA. But nowhere in there does the state “impose” prices. Shoot down excessively high prices? Yes. Set them? No.
And, before you say that this is just semantics, recall how all of this came up. I said that a power generator with high costs can’t charge high prices because the market is competitive. You disagreed saying that “the price we pay will be decided by Ian Bowles”
That is dead wrong. You’ve dreamed this up.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
NFW,
So, you still believe that - if National Grid is trying to buy 100 MW of power from Cape Wind it cares that Cape Wind's full capacity is 480 MW?
Well, you're the only one.
So, you still believe that - if National Grid is trying to buy 100 MW of power from Cape Wind it cares that Cape Wind's full capacity is 480 MW?
Well, you're the only one.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
Dave:
From your post these two statements contradict each other.
“The purpose of this approval step is to protect the public from unacceptable agreements, basically ones with excessively high prices. So, the State can strike down a PPA.”
“ I said that a power generator with high costs can’t charge high prices because the market is competitive.”
If, as you claim, the market is competitive, there is no need for the state to step in, unless of course excessively priced PPAs can be passed on to the ratepayer.
It is clear to me that Ian Bowles is concerned that the negotiators are going to get greedy and overcharge to the point that it will create a public backlash detrimental to Cape Wind and his plan to save the world from Global Warming.
A classic case of not wanting to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. All the signs are unmistakable. Bowles’ goal for 25% renewable energy (mostly wind) by 2030, will more than double the cost of electricity.
From your post these two statements contradict each other.
“The purpose of this approval step is to protect the public from unacceptable agreements, basically ones with excessively high prices. So, the State can strike down a PPA.”
“ I said that a power generator with high costs can’t charge high prices because the market is competitive.”
If, as you claim, the market is competitive, there is no need for the state to step in, unless of course excessively priced PPAs can be passed on to the ratepayer.
It is clear to me that Ian Bowles is concerned that the negotiators are going to get greedy and overcharge to the point that it will create a public backlash detrimental to Cape Wind and his plan to save the world from Global Warming.
A classic case of not wanting to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. All the signs are unmistakable. Bowles’ goal for 25% renewable energy (mostly wind) by 2030, will more than double the cost of electricity.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
Dave:
You continue to mischaracterize what I say. I never said “I believe that - if National Grid is trying to buy 100 MW of power from Cape Wind it cares that Cape Wind's full capacity is 480 MW”
What I am saying is that the 480 MW capacity of Cape Wind has zero Capacity Value, which makes Cape Wind redundant and adds to the overall cost of power generation. That extra cost will be recovered from increases to our electric rates. The competitive market will not apply because the state mandate takes precedence.
You continue to mischaracterize what I say. I never said “I believe that - if National Grid is trying to buy 100 MW of power from Cape Wind it cares that Cape Wind's full capacity is 480 MW”
What I am saying is that the 480 MW capacity of Cape Wind has zero Capacity Value, which makes Cape Wind redundant and adds to the overall cost of power generation. That extra cost will be recovered from increases to our electric rates. The competitive market will not apply because the state mandate takes precedence.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
NFW,
You say: "That extra cost will be recovered from increases to our electric rates"
And I say: "How?".
Whenever I’ve asked you to explain, you fall back on high level statements from Enron, etc. So, I’ll help. Here’s my summary of how power is sold in New England. What’s wrong with this?
1. A wind farm produces power. Let’s say is has much higher per MW costs than its competition.
2. The wind farm negotiates with utilities to sell its power.
3. The price that utilities are willing to pay is determined by Supply and Demand. If the wind farm asks for an unfair price, they get the answer: “No”.
4. Due to the GCA, utilities will probably pay somewhat more for renewable power. But that is limited by Supply and Demand again.
5. The utilities end up buying power for market price
6. This cost is passed directly onto rate payers with no profit added.
7. End Result: High capacity cost does not impact rates.
Where is my mistake?
You say: "That extra cost will be recovered from increases to our electric rates"
And I say: "How?".
Whenever I’ve asked you to explain, you fall back on high level statements from Enron, etc. So, I’ll help. Here’s my summary of how power is sold in New England. What’s wrong with this?
1. A wind farm produces power. Let’s say is has much higher per MW costs than its competition.
2. The wind farm negotiates with utilities to sell its power.
3. The price that utilities are willing to pay is determined by Supply and Demand. If the wind farm asks for an unfair price, they get the answer: “No”.
4. Due to the GCA, utilities will probably pay somewhat more for renewable power. But that is limited by Supply and Demand again.
5. The utilities end up buying power for market price
6. This cost is passed directly onto rate payers with no profit added.
7. End Result: High capacity cost does not impact rates.
Where is my mistake?
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
NFW,
You say: “If, as you claim, the market is competitive, there is no need for the state to step in... “
I say: In a perfect world you’re right. Unfortunately, the world isn’t perfect. Who knows, maybe Gordon knows the CEO of National Grid personally and he offers the guy a nice little Swiss Bank account to get high rates in the PPA. More plausibly, perhaps Gordon says to National Grid: Double my rates on this 1st contract and I’ll give you low rates 5 years from now.
The market is competitive but that doesn’t make it, without regulation, immune to corruption. And that’s where Bowles and the State come in: To protect the public from corruption.
You say: “If, as you claim, the market is competitive, there is no need for the state to step in... “
I say: In a perfect world you’re right. Unfortunately, the world isn’t perfect. Who knows, maybe Gordon knows the CEO of National Grid personally and he offers the guy a nice little Swiss Bank account to get high rates in the PPA. More plausibly, perhaps Gordon says to National Grid: Double my rates on this 1st contract and I’ll give you low rates 5 years from now.
The market is competitive but that doesn’t make it, without regulation, immune to corruption. And that’s where Bowles and the State come in: To protect the public from corruption.
Buzz [Member] writes:
Senator James Inhofe (R-OK) today asked the Obama administration to investigate what he called “the greatest scientific scandal of our generation” — the actions of climate scientists revealed by the Climategate Files, and the subsequent admissions by the editors of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change
Senator Inhofe also called for former Vice President Al Gore to be called back to the Senate to testify.
Senator Inhofe also called for former Vice President Al Gore to be called back to the Senate to testify.
notawonk [Member] writes:
Ohh, you draw me in..
Imhoff's an idiot.
Imhoff's an idiot.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Greatest scientific scandal of our generation? Let's see Buzz, how may scientists did this involve? I'm not sure, but you can count them on one hand. Next question: How many Climate Scientists worldwide support Climate Change due to human activity? Thousands. How many oppose that view: A very precious few.
Sorry Buzz, a couple of scientists in England does not a great scandal make.
Sorry Buzz, a couple of scientists in England does not a great scandal make.
notawonk [Member] writes:
And Inhofe's an idiot too.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
Dave:
In your little scenario on how power is sold, you fail to account for the fact that the GCA mandate for 25% renewable energy serves to artificially increase demand by 100%.
On the supply side, we will need to add 25 Cape Wind size farms, and all the new, and expensive high voltage transmission lines to connect them.
The 25 new wind farms will theoretically need all of our current power plants running in spinning reserve to balance the fickle output from wind.
While you may be right that all of this will be negotiated on a competitive basis, the fact remains that the additional requirement that 25% of the power must come from wind decreases the overall efficiency of the power production system by more than a factor of two. The utilities will be forced to compete for the same amount of power from resources that will be more that twice as expensive.
And that is how our rates will more than double.
In your little scenario on how power is sold, you fail to account for the fact that the GCA mandate for 25% renewable energy serves to artificially increase demand by 100%.
On the supply side, we will need to add 25 Cape Wind size farms, and all the new, and expensive high voltage transmission lines to connect them.
The 25 new wind farms will theoretically need all of our current power plants running in spinning reserve to balance the fickle output from wind.
While you may be right that all of this will be negotiated on a competitive basis, the fact remains that the additional requirement that 25% of the power must come from wind decreases the overall efficiency of the power production system by more than a factor of two. The utilities will be forced to compete for the same amount of power from resources that will be more that twice as expensive.
And that is how our rates will more than double.
notawonk [Member] writes:
Here's some reality:
Permafrost Line Recedes 130 Km in 50 Years, Canadian Study Finds
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100217101129.htm
Ice Shelves Disappearing on Antarctic Peninsula: Glacier Retreat and Sea Level Rise Are Possible Consequences
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100222120137.htm
Permafrost Line Recedes 130 Km in 50 Years, Canadian Study Finds
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100217101129.htm
Ice Shelves Disappearing on Antarctic Peninsula: Glacier Retreat and Sea Level Rise Are Possible Consequences
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100222120137.htm
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
NFW,
I thought about mentioning what you say i forgot in my "little" scenario but I skipped it because one can't address all issues in 1,100 characters.
Yes, market price for renewable power may be higher than for conventional power. That will depend upon the supply of renewable power.
But the point is that the cost of capacity cannot be passed onto the public. The price will be set by supply and demand and not driven by cost as you always, and incorrectly, insist.
And now you've dreamed something new up:
"the fact remains that the additional requirement that 25% of the power must come from wind decreases the overall efficiency of the power production system by more than a factor of two."
Where do you get this stuff? Amazing.
I thought about mentioning what you say i forgot in my "little" scenario but I skipped it because one can't address all issues in 1,100 characters.
Yes, market price for renewable power may be higher than for conventional power. That will depend upon the supply of renewable power.
But the point is that the cost of capacity cannot be passed onto the public. The price will be set by supply and demand and not driven by cost as you always, and incorrectly, insist.
And now you've dreamed something new up:
"the fact remains that the additional requirement that 25% of the power must come from wind decreases the overall efficiency of the power production system by more than a factor of two."
Where do you get this stuff? Amazing.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
notawonk,
As long as one writer anywhere says that Global Warming isn't real the anti crowd will deny it. Reminds me of evolution vs. intelligent design. A tiny segment of the scientific community adheres to intelligent design and that's enough for the deniers.
As long as one writer anywhere says that Global Warming isn't real the anti crowd will deny it. Reminds me of evolution vs. intelligent design. A tiny segment of the scientific community adheres to intelligent design and that's enough for the deniers.
Buzz [Member] writes:
Dave/notawonk,
Don't shoot the messenger.
Senator Inhofe released a minority staff report from the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee.
[The] Minority Staff of the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works believe the scientists involved may have violated fundamental ethical principles governing taxpayer-funded research and, in some cases, federal laws.
In requesting that the EPA reopen the Endangerment Finding, Inhofe joins with firms such as the Peabody Energy Company and several state Attorneys General (such as Texas and Virginia) in objecting to the Obama administration’s attempt to extend regulatory control over carbon dioxide emissions in the United States
Don't shoot the messenger.
Senator Inhofe released a minority staff report from the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee.
[The] Minority Staff of the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works believe the scientists involved may have violated fundamental ethical principles governing taxpayer-funded research and, in some cases, federal laws.
In requesting that the EPA reopen the Endangerment Finding, Inhofe joins with firms such as the Peabody Energy Company and several state Attorneys General (such as Texas and Virginia) in objecting to the Obama administration’s attempt to extend regulatory control over carbon dioxide emissions in the United States
Walker [Member] writes:
But he's right on this one wonk.
Fog warning this AM.
No, get the f8ck out, No, really until 9 am. No way fog in south FL? Yeah way. Well that's enough for me.....
We're doomed, the Goracle has said so, all you sheeple, please walk off the edge of the nearest cliff right now.....
Himalayan glaciers,crankin' out ice as we speak. When the dew point has reached the dupe point, I will surrender to your twisted (falsified) logic.
It's not nice to fool with Sam the Sham.
Junk science and you all know it.
Fog warning this AM.
No, get the f8ck out, No, really until 9 am. No way fog in south FL? Yeah way. Well that's enough for me.....
We're doomed, the Goracle has said so, all you sheeple, please walk off the edge of the nearest cliff right now.....
Himalayan glaciers,crankin' out ice as we speak. When the dew point has reached the dupe point, I will surrender to your twisted (falsified) logic.
It's not nice to fool with Sam the Sham.
Junk science and you all know it.
notawonk [Member] writes:
Well, I guess that's just another idea in the dust bin. Hard to tell what's going to happen, especially when it's in the future.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
Dave:
A 420MW farm needs a 420MW fossil fuel plant running in spinning reserve to provide the same amount of power that the fossil fuel plant alone provides.
This amounts to two power plants producing the power of one. Simple arithmetic calls this double.
Without the force of the Green Communities Act that mandates the use of renewable energy, the competitive system, you are so fond of saying will protect the ratepayer, would not support grossly inefficient wind farms, and no one would be able raise money to build one.
The Governors are meeting with Salazar to figure out how to sell this insane plan to the public in their mistaken belief that it will save the world from Global Warming.
A 420MW farm needs a 420MW fossil fuel plant running in spinning reserve to provide the same amount of power that the fossil fuel plant alone provides.
This amounts to two power plants producing the power of one. Simple arithmetic calls this double.
Without the force of the Green Communities Act that mandates the use of renewable energy, the competitive system, you are so fond of saying will protect the ratepayer, would not support grossly inefficient wind farms, and no one would be able raise money to build one.
The Governors are meeting with Salazar to figure out how to sell this insane plan to the public in their mistaken belief that it will save the world from Global Warming.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
Is There a “Consensus” in Science?
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/11/is_there_a_consensus_in_scienc.html
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/11/is_there_a_consensus_in_scienc.html
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
NFW,
Ah yes, the baseless one-to-one spinning reserve argument. I'm sure if I put a gun to your head you'd suddenly remember that this it not a problem at low levels of wind on a grid. But it is useful in a debate like this.
I've jousted enough with you for now. I just hope that other readers have seen how readily you make baseless arguments and that they discount you in the future.
The argument that took the cake this time was "Renewable prices will be high because Ian Bowles will make it so".
Weak stuff NFW. Very weak.
Ah yes, the baseless one-to-one spinning reserve argument. I'm sure if I put a gun to your head you'd suddenly remember that this it not a problem at low levels of wind on a grid. But it is useful in a debate like this.
I've jousted enough with you for now. I just hope that other readers have seen how readily you make baseless arguments and that they discount you in the future.
The argument that took the cake this time was "Renewable prices will be high because Ian Bowles will make it so".
Weak stuff NFW. Very weak.
notawonk [Member] writes:
Oh, yes, NFW, "Is There a “Consensus” in Science?"
I see you cite a site that is advertising, "What is intelligent design? Study Intelligent Design In Seattle This Summer July 9 - 17"
I guess they must be an unbiased group.
I see you cite a site that is advertising, "What is intelligent design? Study Intelligent Design In Seattle This Summer July 9 - 17"
I guess they must be an unbiased group.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
I thought we were discussing rate increases at 25% wind penetration. The only rebuttal to the one of one spinning reserve theory is that if one spreads wind turbines over a wide enough area, the wind is bound to be blowing somewhere. There are now reports from Europe where penetrations are approaching 10% that weather system with no wind over huge areas of Europe are not uncommon, and the cost of transmitting power from windy to non wind places is prohibitively expensive.
The one for one spinning reserve theory has stood the test of time. Your claim that it is baseless is wishful thinking.
The one for one spinning reserve theory has stood the test of time. Your claim that it is baseless is wishful thinking.
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
Dave Kent:
What better evidence of twice the price wind energy exists?
World's largest Vestas President and CEO Ditlev Engle stated of the Cape Wind project proposal to the Boston Globe:
"And, therefore, I am really wondering why anybody wants to put them up offshore because it’s twice the price. So just as an outsider, I am just scratching my head saying, “Why?”
http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2008/09/21/the_answers_to_him_are_blowing_in_the_wind/
Neptune Wind chief slams Cape Wind's fuzzy math:
http://www.neptunewind.com/2010/02/carbon-at-60-per-ton-by-2037.html
NextEra is the current name for the FPL Group’s unregulated subsidiary once called FPL Energy.
FPL Group, oft called the largest owner of “wind farms” in the US, had so many tax breaks — primarily from “wind farms” — that the whole FPL Group did not have to pay any federal income tax on its billions in profits.
‘Nextera told by 400 to leave town!'
http://windconcernsontario.wordpress.com/2010/02/05/nextera-told-by-400-at-meeting-to-leave-town/
What better evidence of twice the price wind energy exists?
World's largest Vestas President and CEO Ditlev Engle stated of the Cape Wind project proposal to the Boston Globe:
"And, therefore, I am really wondering why anybody wants to put them up offshore because it’s twice the price. So just as an outsider, I am just scratching my head saying, “Why?”
http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2008/09/21/the_answers_to_him_are_blowing_in_the_wind/
Neptune Wind chief slams Cape Wind's fuzzy math:
http://www.neptunewind.com/2010/02/carbon-at-60-per-ton-by-2037.html
NextEra is the current name for the FPL Group’s unregulated subsidiary once called FPL Energy.
FPL Group, oft called the largest owner of “wind farms” in the US, had so many tax breaks — primarily from “wind farms” — that the whole FPL Group did not have to pay any federal income tax on its billions in profits.
‘Nextera told by 400 to leave town!'
http://windconcernsontario.wordpress.com/2010/02/05/nextera-told-by-400-at-meeting-to-leave-town/
dolphin [Visitor] writes:
barbara d...thanks for the comments.
The comments were scary. I hope a few folks on this blog take the time to read them. Carl B will say they will be out of earshot. Maybe the first but not the last.
Dave Kent...what will your comment be if Cape Wind is built and electric rates double? How will you explain your paid posturing to the good citizens of Massachusetts?
The comments were scary. I hope a few folks on this blog take the time to read them. Carl B will say they will be out of earshot. Maybe the first but not the last.
Dave Kent...what will your comment be if Cape Wind is built and electric rates double? How will you explain your paid posturing to the good citizens of Massachusetts?
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
Thank you, dolphin, for your comments.
What's most frightening is that Cape Wind has a "no bid" deal where a data tower exists, in Nantucket Sound.
As such, Cape Wind, EMI, UPC, Wind Management, LLC, Wind Partners, LLC, have not been vetted in a bidding process.
Would you lease your home to tenants who have not been "qualified"?
Who are these guys?
http://bjdurk.newsvine.com/_news/2010/02/23/3941508-who-are-these-guys-cape-wind-emi-upc-first-wind-ivpc
What's most frightening is that Cape Wind has a "no bid" deal where a data tower exists, in Nantucket Sound.
As such, Cape Wind, EMI, UPC, Wind Management, LLC, Wind Partners, LLC, have not been vetted in a bidding process.
Would you lease your home to tenants who have not been "qualified"?
Who are these guys?
http://bjdurk.newsvine.com/_news/2010/02/23/3941508-who-are-these-guys-cape-wind-emi-upc-first-wind-ivpc
bittersweet [Member] writes:
So-wind will not reduce pollution?
Can someone tell me what oil and gas will do about it?
And what will you say to us when the price of oil and gas triples, as it does whenever the Barons feel like doing it?
What is your suggestion to end pollution if not wind?
Or do we keep on the same path...a few people getting massively rich at the expense of the health of this planet and the people and animals and all of nature living on it?
Not to mention wars and destruction.
Because, as you KNOW---they never accept responsibilty for any of the damage they cause.
Who killed the electric car?
Where is the innovation and new technology?
Poison peddlers. In the guise of "caring".
Can someone tell me what oil and gas will do about it?
And what will you say to us when the price of oil and gas triples, as it does whenever the Barons feel like doing it?
What is your suggestion to end pollution if not wind?
Or do we keep on the same path...a few people getting massively rich at the expense of the health of this planet and the people and animals and all of nature living on it?
Not to mention wars and destruction.
Because, as you KNOW---they never accept responsibilty for any of the damage they cause.
Who killed the electric car?
Where is the innovation and new technology?
Poison peddlers. In the guise of "caring".
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
Plant trees not wind turbines for an effective and economical carbon sink, Bittersweet. Conservation doesn't make multinationals, PetroWindcats, rich, and it's a great starting place.
"What emerges from this analysis is that in electricity systems that must choose among fossil fuel-fired means of integrating wind volatility, no plausible scenario seems to exist where wind can play a positive role as the means to achieve fossil fuel or greenhouse gas emissions savings."
http://www.masterresource.org/2010/02/wind-integration-incremental-emissions-from-back-up-generation-cycling-part-v-calculator-update/
The agenda of poison peddlers:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/5745566/by-the-waters-of-denial-they-sit-and-weep.thtml
Wind developers never accept responsibility for the economic and environmental damage they do under the auspices of saving our planet. They're just selling what we don't need as long as we think it works.
GE's motto is, "Green is green."
Thanks :)
Barbara D.
"What emerges from this analysis is that in electricity systems that must choose among fossil fuel-fired means of integrating wind volatility, no plausible scenario seems to exist where wind can play a positive role as the means to achieve fossil fuel or greenhouse gas emissions savings."
http://www.masterresource.org/2010/02/wind-integration-incremental-emissions-from-back-up-generation-cycling-part-v-calculator-update/
The agenda of poison peddlers:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/5745566/by-the-waters-of-denial-they-sit-and-weep.thtml
Wind developers never accept responsibility for the economic and environmental damage they do under the auspices of saving our planet. They're just selling what we don't need as long as we think it works.
GE's motto is, "Green is green."
Thanks :)
Barbara D.
Buzz [Member] writes:
bitter says: "what will you say to us when the price of oil and gas triples, as it does whenever the Barons feel like doing it"
For the past 8 years you've been telling us the high prices were due to Bush/Cheney and Co. Now it's the "Barons", so are Bush/Cheney off the hook?
For the past 8 years you've been telling us the high prices were due to Bush/Cheney and Co. Now it's the "Barons", so are Bush/Cheney off the hook?
nofreewind [Member] writes:
Barbara thanks:
Cape Wind boosters claim that every MWh of wind energy will replace a MWh of fossil fueled electrical generation. I have been saying this cannot be true because every MWh of wind energy requires backup power plants to run inefficiently and produce excess emissions. Furthermore, the emissions resulting from the manufacture, transportation, installation, maintenance, decommissioning, and disposal of wind turbines is not included.
Now we have a scientific study, which can be verified by the peer review process, that shows that the inefficiency wind energy creates in backup power plants alone negates any reduction in fuel usage or pollution. When one adds the emissions resulting from the manufacture, transportation, installation, maintenance, decommissioning, and disposal of wind turbines after a projected 20 year life, it becomes clear that the environmental reasons for supporting wind energy are ill-advised.
Bittersweet’s comments may be well meaning, but are now shown to be counterproductive. Wind energy is now exposed as nothing more than Greenwash
Cape Wind boosters claim that every MWh of wind energy will replace a MWh of fossil fueled electrical generation. I have been saying this cannot be true because every MWh of wind energy requires backup power plants to run inefficiently and produce excess emissions. Furthermore, the emissions resulting from the manufacture, transportation, installation, maintenance, decommissioning, and disposal of wind turbines is not included.
Now we have a scientific study, which can be verified by the peer review process, that shows that the inefficiency wind energy creates in backup power plants alone negates any reduction in fuel usage or pollution. When one adds the emissions resulting from the manufacture, transportation, installation, maintenance, decommissioning, and disposal of wind turbines after a projected 20 year life, it becomes clear that the environmental reasons for supporting wind energy are ill-advised.
Bittersweet’s comments may be well meaning, but are now shown to be counterproductive. Wind energy is now exposed as nothing more than Greenwash
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
Jon Boone:
"For eight years, I’ve studied the claims of wind industry developers, their trade organization, the American Wind Energy Association, and the National Renewable Energy Lab, an agency of the US Department of Energy, with staff whose jobs are dependent upon the success of renewable technologies. I’ve concluded that industrial wind energy exemplifies American business at its worst, promising to save the environment while wreaking havoc on it. Spawned, then supported, by government welfare measures at considerable public expense, it produces no meaningful product or service yet provides enormous profit to a few wealthy investors, primarily multinational energy companies in search of increased bottom lines. It’s an environmental plunderer, with its hirelings and parasites using a few truths, many half-truths, and the politics of wishful thinking to frame a house of lies. It’s all a bill of goods. Not a single claim made for industrial wind energy is true."
http://alleghenytreasures.wordpress.com/2009/11/16/a-conversation-with-jon-boone-%e2%80%93-industrial-wind-and-the-environment/
"For eight years, I’ve studied the claims of wind industry developers, their trade organization, the American Wind Energy Association, and the National Renewable Energy Lab, an agency of the US Department of Energy, with staff whose jobs are dependent upon the success of renewable technologies. I’ve concluded that industrial wind energy exemplifies American business at its worst, promising to save the environment while wreaking havoc on it. Spawned, then supported, by government welfare measures at considerable public expense, it produces no meaningful product or service yet provides enormous profit to a few wealthy investors, primarily multinational energy companies in search of increased bottom lines. It’s an environmental plunderer, with its hirelings and parasites using a few truths, many half-truths, and the politics of wishful thinking to frame a house of lies. It’s all a bill of goods. Not a single claim made for industrial wind energy is true."
http://alleghenytreasures.wordpress.com/2009/11/16/a-conversation-with-jon-boone-%e2%80%93-industrial-wind-and-the-environment/
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
You're well spoken and well informed activism is truly appreciated, Nofreewind.
Thank You,
Barbara D.
Thank You,
Barbara D.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Barbara,
What are Jon Boone's qualifications to make the statement you quote? Oh that's right. He’s a retired college administrator and now he's a painter.
So what’s wrong with a guy with that background writing on wind power? Nothing. The problem comes when Barbara cuts and pastes his words without explaining that Boone is an amateur.
And before Barbara and NFW attack me by saying “Then why should we believe anything you say Dave? You’re not an expert either.” let me say: They’re right. I’m just an amateur who has done a bunch of research. I’m no expert.
But I haven’t seen anybody cut and paste my words and present them as if I WAS an expert. If and when someone does that, they’ll be wrong. Just as Barbara is in this case.
What are Jon Boone's qualifications to make the statement you quote? Oh that's right. He’s a retired college administrator and now he's a painter.
So what’s wrong with a guy with that background writing on wind power? Nothing. The problem comes when Barbara cuts and pastes his words without explaining that Boone is an amateur.
And before Barbara and NFW attack me by saying “Then why should we believe anything you say Dave? You’re not an expert either.” let me say: They’re right. I’m just an amateur who has done a bunch of research. I’m no expert.
But I haven’t seen anybody cut and paste my words and present them as if I WAS an expert. If and when someone does that, they’ll be wrong. Just as Barbara is in this case.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
Dave:
Jon Boone is an expert. The man has spent eight years in self study educating himself on the subject. One can get a PHD degree on any subject in less time.
It is more important to evaluate what people say about wind energy, and stop looking for reasons to discredit them. Anyone who can read, add, subtract, multiply and divide can educate themselves on this subject, and rightfully conclude that wind energy is a scam.
One only needs the strength to overcome the emotional tie associated with saving the world from Global Warming as Jon Boone has done successfully.
Jon Boone is an expert. The man has spent eight years in self study educating himself on the subject. One can get a PHD degree on any subject in less time.
It is more important to evaluate what people say about wind energy, and stop looking for reasons to discredit them. Anyone who can read, add, subtract, multiply and divide can educate themselves on this subject, and rightfully conclude that wind energy is a scam.
One only needs the strength to overcome the emotional tie associated with saving the world from Global Warming as Jon Boone has done successfully.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
NFW,
The key to your statement about Jon Boone is the following:
"It is more important to evaluate what people say about wind energy"
Yes, I understand. Reworded: "The important thing is that they say that wind power is a sham".
If they agree with you, they're a long way down the road to being an "expert".
Sorry NFW, that's not enough. I'm willing to read Boone's stuff and consider it, but without any technical qualification in the field of power generation or any professional experience, he's just a souped up amateur like you and I.
The key to your statement about Jon Boone is the following:
"It is more important to evaluate what people say about wind energy"
Yes, I understand. Reworded: "The important thing is that they say that wind power is a sham".
If they agree with you, they're a long way down the road to being an "expert".
Sorry NFW, that's not enough. I'm willing to read Boone's stuff and consider it, but without any technical qualification in the field of power generation or any professional experience, he's just a souped up amateur like you and I.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
"Now it's the "Barons", so are Bush/Cheney off the hook?"
OIL Barons buzz. And YES, Bush and Cheney are oil barons.
So, NO they are not off the hook.
And it is extremely dis-ingenous to claim wind power is the big greedy polluter, and not say a word about oil, gas and coal.
In case you want to spin it again...that was my original question:
What are oil and gas going to do about pollution?
OR do you DENY that oil and gas have been big polluters...poison peddlers?
You want to talk about wind...I asked you about oil.
What have they done in all these years to take responsability for all the destruction and misery they have caused?
What are they going to do in the future, since you write wind off as a pollution-causing, greed-mongering business?
What exactly is big oil? A humanitarian undertaking?
OIL Barons buzz. And YES, Bush and Cheney are oil barons.
So, NO they are not off the hook.
And it is extremely dis-ingenous to claim wind power is the big greedy polluter, and not say a word about oil, gas and coal.
In case you want to spin it again...that was my original question:
What are oil and gas going to do about pollution?
OR do you DENY that oil and gas have been big polluters...poison peddlers?
You want to talk about wind...I asked you about oil.
What have they done in all these years to take responsability for all the destruction and misery they have caused?
What are they going to do in the future, since you write wind off as a pollution-causing, greed-mongering business?
What exactly is big oil? A humanitarian undertaking?
bittersweet [Member] writes:
The Other Side:
"According to NASA’s study of global temperature data, the past decade was the warmest on record and 2009 is tied for second place as the warmest year since modern global record keeping began 130 years ago.
Climate Change: Follow the Money
Not that money is equivalent to truth, but sometimes it can be an indication of motives.
It’s no accident that oil money is behind organizations like the Southeastern Legal Foundation, which is challenging the U.S. EPA on greenhouse gas emissions, to say nothing of Exxon’s history of involvement in climate denialism. Contrast that to the U.S. Department of Defense, which just issued a Quadrennial Defense Review assessing threats to national security that basically put the entire U.S. military on global warming alert. So, follow the money: some companies are betting against global warming (and therefore against our national security if you believe the DoD), but a growing list of other companies are putting their money behind NASA and the DoD by supporting climate legislation and engaging in national sustainability initiatives."
"According to NASA’s study of global temperature data, the past decade was the warmest on record and 2009 is tied for second place as the warmest year since modern global record keeping began 130 years ago.
Climate Change: Follow the Money
Not that money is equivalent to truth, but sometimes it can be an indication of motives.
It’s no accident that oil money is behind organizations like the Southeastern Legal Foundation, which is challenging the U.S. EPA on greenhouse gas emissions, to say nothing of Exxon’s history of involvement in climate denialism. Contrast that to the U.S. Department of Defense, which just issued a Quadrennial Defense Review assessing threats to national security that basically put the entire U.S. military on global warming alert. So, follow the money: some companies are betting against global warming (and therefore against our national security if you believe the DoD), but a growing list of other companies are putting their money behind NASA and the DoD by supporting climate legislation and engaging in national sustainability initiatives."
nofreewind [Member] writes:
Dave:
I am afraid that it is you who is too quick to dismiss the substance of what Jon Boone is saying because you disagree with his conclusion. His website is full of expert opinion on the subject, and I find him very credible.
http://www.stopillwind.org/index.php
Personally, I distrust “experts” who say things that fail the test of common sense.
I am afraid that it is you who is too quick to dismiss the substance of what Jon Boone is saying because you disagree with his conclusion. His website is full of expert opinion on the subject, and I find him very credible.
http://www.stopillwind.org/index.php
Personally, I distrust “experts” who say things that fail the test of common sense.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
It's funny how you people always diss Obama for being a college professor as if it makes him some stupid elite clown, and here you are promoting one as an expert.
As an environmentalist..surely he cannot be for oil, can he?
If so, he is a hypocrit and not credible.
As an environmentalist..surely he cannot be for oil, can he?
If so, he is a hypocrit and not credible.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
NFW,
When did I "dismiss" Jon Boone? I just dismiss your characterization of him as an expert.
He's an amateur like you and I. He has no professional experience in the field of power generation. No training/education there either. He's an activist.
If you want to call that an "expert" fine. But you have a very low standard for that word.
When did I "dismiss" Jon Boone? I just dismiss your characterization of him as an expert.
He's an amateur like you and I. He has no professional experience in the field of power generation. No training/education there either. He's an activist.
If you want to call that an "expert" fine. But you have a very low standard for that word.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Bitter,
Mr. Boone was not a professor. He was a "college administrator".
I'm sure that was a respectable job and I'm sure that Mr. Boone is a capable guy.
But an "expert" in power? Hardly.
This is a great example of how we should give Barbara Durkin's cut and pastes very little credence.
Mr. Boone was not a professor. He was a "college administrator".
I'm sure that was a respectable job and I'm sure that Mr. Boone is a capable guy.
But an "expert" in power? Hardly.
This is a great example of how we should give Barbara Durkin's cut and pastes very little credence.
nofreewind [Member] writes:
Jon Boone is not an expert on power. He is an expert on the wind industry scam which he has spent the last 8 year studying. He devoted the time necessary to acquire the knowledge needed to be an expert out of concern for the environment.
He knows what he is talking about, and needs to be listened to.
He knows what he is talking about, and needs to be listened to.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
NFW,
Please stop implying that I won't listen to Mr. Boone. I will. But I won't call him an expert. Do you see the difference?
Please stop implying that I won't listen to Mr. Boone. I will. But I won't call him an expert. Do you see the difference?
nofreewind [Member] writes:
Dave?
As long as you say you will listen, I do not care what we call him.
As long as you say you will listen, I do not care what we call him.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Interesting response from another artist:
He's from the Rhode Island School of Design.
"Response to Jon Boone's Critique
Yuriko Saito"
BTW---that Boone is ALL over the net.....what is his deal?
He's from the Rhode Island School of Design.
"Response to Jon Boone's Critique
Yuriko Saito"
BTW---that Boone is ALL over the net.....what is his deal?
bittersweet [Member] writes:
HOLD UP!:
Anonymous said...
Kudos to you Dan. I believe that Jon Boone is an agent provocateur. If he cares so much about birds and their habitat, why doesn't he rally against the agressive coal mining in Garrett County, or against dirty power plants? In Garrett County it is very easy to make yourself the big fish in the proverbial small pond and I think that's exactly what this guy has done...
NOVEMBER 9, 2009 10:32 PM
"Dan's Deep Creek Blog: Another case of resume inflation?"
Anonymous said...
Kudos to you Dan. I believe that Jon Boone is an agent provocateur. If he cares so much about birds and their habitat, why doesn't he rally against the agressive coal mining in Garrett County, or against dirty power plants? In Garrett County it is very easy to make yourself the big fish in the proverbial small pond and I think that's exactly what this guy has done...
NOVEMBER 9, 2009 10:32 PM
"Dan's Deep Creek Blog: Another case of resume inflation?"
bittersweet [Member] writes:
"Mr. Boone has, from the beginning, been one of the most outspoken critics of wind energy development in Garrett County and other locales. Oddly, however, each time I've seen something written about Mr. Boone I've also seen a differing account of his career at the University of Maryland. Sometimes he is listed as a retired administrator, other times as a PhD or former Professor. I've even read on a Deep Creek real estate blog that he was a PhD and an expert on wind turbines."
KNEW there was something off.....he is all over everything.
Who pays this guy?
KNEW there was something off.....he is all over everything.
Who pays this guy?
bittersweet [Member] writes:
His article appears here:
"MasterResource
A free-market energy blog"--
Along with writers who include men who worked for Enron, the American Enterprise Institute, articles against Al Gore and Global Warming.
Most recent article:
NARUC Study: Robust Oil and Gas Resources Could Be Developed for Consumers and Taxpayers (big opportunity for decision makers!)
by Dave Harbour (Guest Blogger)
February 25, 2010--
Talking about oil and gas exploration on Federal land.....
So--oil and gas are environment-friendly Mr. Boone?
"MasterResource
A free-market energy blog"--
Along with writers who include men who worked for Enron, the American Enterprise Institute, articles against Al Gore and Global Warming.
Most recent article:
NARUC Study: Robust Oil and Gas Resources Could Be Developed for Consumers and Taxpayers (big opportunity for decision makers!)
by Dave Harbour (Guest Blogger)
February 25, 2010--
Talking about oil and gas exploration on Federal land.....
So--oil and gas are environment-friendly Mr. Boone?
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
Jon Boone is extremely knowledgeable about wind energy, and a very entertaining read on this dry subject matter. His documentary, "Life under a wind plant" is credited by opponents with stopping two wind projects in MA.
Jon Boone:
"Industrial wind technology is a meretricious commodity, attractive in a superficial way but without real value—seemingly plausible, even significant, but actually false and nugatory. Those who would profit from it either economically or ideologically are engaged in wholesale deception. All adults should know that if something seems too good to be true, it almost always is. Although the wind itself may be “free,” the cost of converting it to electrical energy is extremely expensive. A 100MW wind project would cost, in today’s market, about $350 million, most of it paid for by taxpayers."
http://masterresource.org/2009/10/industrial-wind-technology-interview-of-jon-boone-by-allegheny-treasures/
Jon Boone:
"Industrial wind technology is a meretricious commodity, attractive in a superficial way but without real value—seemingly plausible, even significant, but actually false and nugatory. Those who would profit from it either economically or ideologically are engaged in wholesale deception. All adults should know that if something seems too good to be true, it almost always is. Although the wind itself may be “free,” the cost of converting it to electrical energy is extremely expensive. A 100MW wind project would cost, in today’s market, about $350 million, most of it paid for by taxpayers."
http://masterresource.org/2009/10/industrial-wind-technology-interview-of-jon-boone-by-allegheny-treasures/
nofreewind [Member] writes:
bitter, Wind energy is a scam. 300,000 wind turbines along the Eastern seacoast will do nothing to stop fossil fuel usage. The same industrialists you now hate will have one more way to make money. The wind industry’s hype sounds good but they cannot deliver on their promises. All we are going to get is more damage for no return.
It’s time we all start to think with our head, and not with just our heart.
It’s time we all start to think with our head, and not with just our heart.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Bitter,
Please ask NFW how to explain his amazing statement that 300,000 turbines won't save a drop of fossil fuel. And when he mentions the need to run a fossil plant every time a turbine is turning do me a favor and scoff!
Please ask NFW how to explain his amazing statement that 300,000 turbines won't save a drop of fossil fuel. And when he mentions the need to run a fossil plant every time a turbine is turning do me a favor and scoff!
dolphin [Visitor] writes:
Dave K...your nonsensical remarks are either paid for or uninformed.
You trash people who have spent years researching wind energy yet admit you are a newcomer.
I put you in the same group with bitter.
You know a little about everything but very little about anything.
You trash people who have spent years researching wind energy yet admit you are a newcomer.
I put you in the same group with bitter.
You know a little about everything but very little about anything.
Dave Kent [Member] writes:
Hilarious Dolphin from the man/woman who knows absolutely nothing!
Seriously, what a hoot!
Seriously, what a hoot!
bittersweet [Member] writes:
I will scoff Dave,because I know for a fact that a Japanese company has developed batteries with huge storage capacity which will be used to power those huge wind turbines, which will then generate huge amounts of electricity. Cleaner and cheaper in the long run than any dirty stinking fossil fuel polluting plant.
And you want to talk about trashing??
Al Gore has been speaking about the environment since the 70's!
You peope have NO problem trashing him whenever you please.
Let's see..8 years versus 30..hmm who has been at it longer?
And why doesn't Boone speak out about dirty oil?
What's his agenda?
AND-he believes in Global warming!! How you gonna diss Al Gore for it, and not him?
Boone: "The only humane short-range solution to the problems of global warming and air quality must combine effective conservation efforts with much higher efficiency standards—heavy lifting indeed for the most wasteful culture in the history of the planet."
The scam is the fossil fuel industry which has stifled human growth and potential for centuries just to provide for their own deep pockets. And Power.
And you want to talk about trashing??
Al Gore has been speaking about the environment since the 70's!
You peope have NO problem trashing him whenever you please.
Let's see..8 years versus 30..hmm who has been at it longer?
And why doesn't Boone speak out about dirty oil?
What's his agenda?
AND-he believes in Global warming!! How you gonna diss Al Gore for it, and not him?
Boone: "The only humane short-range solution to the problems of global warming and air quality must combine effective conservation efforts with much higher efficiency standards—heavy lifting indeed for the most wasteful culture in the history of the planet."
The scam is the fossil fuel industry which has stifled human growth and potential for centuries just to provide for their own deep pockets. And Power.
dolphin [Visitor] writes:
Dave...there you go again.
"You trash people who have spent years researching wind energy yet admit you are a newcomer."
Ho-Hum
"You trash people who have spent years researching wind energy yet admit you are a newcomer."
Ho-Hum
bittersweet [Member] writes:
"You trash people who have spent years researching wind energy yet admit you are a newcomer."
Boone is the newcomer here.
Or does he know more than all of Europe? More than NASA? More than the the DOD?
My kittens won't be alive much longer if your kind stays in power.
You'll either pollute them to death, or they'll die by default in another of your wars-for-oil.
Get out gracefully or be mowed over by the change that's coming.
Life is for the young.
You all had your time....and then some.
Turn the page. Oil is dead.
Boone is the newcomer here.
Or does he know more than all of Europe? More than NASA? More than the the DOD?
My kittens won't be alive much longer if your kind stays in power.
You'll either pollute them to death, or they'll die by default in another of your wars-for-oil.
Get out gracefully or be mowed over by the change that's coming.
Life is for the young.
You all had your time....and then some.
Turn the page. Oil is dead.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
"According to the American Academy of Science over 6,000 patents have been suppressed in the US alone for “national security reasons.”Once this suppressed technology is released we will be able to live in as science fiction reality."
Believe it! And get out of the way!
Believe it! And get out of the way!
karent2 [Member] writes:
And thats a fact coming from the Queen of the Tin Foil Hat Society!!
barbaradurkin [Member] writes:
Dave Kent:
Wind energy requires backup conventional fuels. Consider the mining and fabrication and shipping of 440' wind turbines also requires transportation that would, in the case of Cape Wind, increase ship traffic around the world. Nofreewind "gets it" wind energy benefits are net negative in cost and fossil fuel terms.
"OPEC might want to promote wind energy in countries like Germany in order to increase its dependency on fossil fuel."
http://www.clepair.net/windsecret.html
http://www.masterresource.org/2010/02/energy-myths/#more-7200
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof"
Carl Sagan
"I have never seen an independent peer-reviewed analysis in a reputable scientific publication
substantiating any of the claims made for wind technology based upon actual performance data. Reports from wind developers, their trade association, and from the Renewable Energy Lab, all
of which stand to gain from the "enhancement" of wind technology, do not stem from the rigorous
"science" enabling good public policy."
Jon Boone
Wind energy requires backup conventional fuels. Consider the mining and fabrication and shipping of 440' wind turbines also requires transportation that would, in the case of Cape Wind, increase ship traffic around the world. Nofreewind "gets it" wind energy benefits are net negative in cost and fossil fuel terms.
"OPEC might want to promote wind energy in countries like Germany in order to increase its dependency on fossil fuel."
http://www.clepair.net/windsecret.html
http://www.masterresource.org/2010/02/energy-myths/#more-7200
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof"
Carl Sagan
"I have never seen an independent peer-reviewed analysis in a reputable scientific publication
substantiating any of the claims made for wind technology based upon actual performance data. Reports from wind developers, their trade association, and from the Renewable Energy Lab, all
of which stand to gain from the "enhancement" of wind technology, do not stem from the rigorous
"science" enabling good public policy."
Jon Boone
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Well, try this Queen then:
Gov. Jennifer M. Granholm Governor of Michigan
Posted: February 25, 2010 04:52 PM
"A Clean Energy Triple Play"
Read it and weep--how a true leader leads into the future.
You, on the other hand choose to play with relics.
The future will pass you by.
Here's the name of that "imaginary" battery.
VANASAVER (New REDOX Battery) - Ryukyu Electric Power Co.
And you doubt technology has been suppressed from the masses?
Did you ever wonder about that mind-reading machine they want to use in airports? Reads your intentions....
Eye-scans...
Tesla-technology...
How do they get to outer space? How are those rockets and space stations made?
And YOU think burning filthy oil is the height of possibility?
THAT'S your human potential?
You make me laugh.
Gov. Jennifer M. Granholm Governor of Michigan
Posted: February 25, 2010 04:52 PM
"A Clean Energy Triple Play"
Read it and weep--how a true leader leads into the future.
You, on the other hand choose to play with relics.
The future will pass you by.
Here's the name of that "imaginary" battery.
VANASAVER (New REDOX Battery) - Ryukyu Electric Power Co.
And you doubt technology has been suppressed from the masses?
Did you ever wonder about that mind-reading machine they want to use in airports? Reads your intentions....
Eye-scans...
Tesla-technology...
How do they get to outer space? How are those rockets and space stations made?
And YOU think burning filthy oil is the height of possibility?
THAT'S your human potential?
You make me laugh.
dolphin [Visitor] writes:
bitter...I am shocked and chagrined.
I have spent 55+ years paying taxes to support you, your ilk and kittens.
Now I start to look forward to the "golden years" and the rewards of my hard work and I get slammed with this:
"Life is for the young.
You all had your time....and then some.
Turn the page. Oil is dead."
PS...might you suggest a shelter for me?
I am sure you and friends know them all.
I have spent 55+ years paying taxes to support you, your ilk and kittens.
Now I start to look forward to the "golden years" and the rewards of my hard work and I get slammed with this:
"Life is for the young.
You all had your time....and then some.
Turn the page. Oil is dead."
PS...might you suggest a shelter for me?
I am sure you and friends know them all.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
You're an A-hole maverick...kiss my azz and talk to the hand.
ps--ask your friend Peter...he's free and easy with people's 4th amendment rights....like all you cons-you are big phony's.
*****
Savage said last night that Obama, Reid, Pelosi and Holder want to destroy the CIA....things are lookin up!~
BTW...all this repeated mantra of marxist/leninist marxiat/leninist....measn nothing to anyone under 60.
Monponsett is right...that kind of rhetoric is for seniors. And totally out of synch with reality.
Chi-Comms are now beating you at your own Crapitalist game!
This new generation with their young president is going to leave you in the dust.
Stop living in the past...it's a new day!
ps--ask your friend Peter...he's free and easy with people's 4th amendment rights....like all you cons-you are big phony's.
*****
Savage said last night that Obama, Reid, Pelosi and Holder want to destroy the CIA....things are lookin up!~
BTW...all this repeated mantra of marxist/leninist marxiat/leninist....measn nothing to anyone under 60.
Monponsett is right...that kind of rhetoric is for seniors. And totally out of synch with reality.
Chi-Comms are now beating you at your own Crapitalist game!
This new generation with their young president is going to leave you in the dust.
Stop living in the past...it's a new day!
nofreewind [Member] writes:
bitter,
Great news. Now that the Japanese have discovered a battery capable of energy storage on an industrial scale, wind energy becomes the preferred source of electricity. Can we now dispense with the government mandates for renewable energy and let the people decide what is best for their future?
Government mandates serve no purpose other than to give unscrupulous industrialists a legal way to screw the public.
Great news. Now that the Japanese have discovered a battery capable of energy storage on an industrial scale, wind energy becomes the preferred source of electricity. Can we now dispense with the government mandates for renewable energy and let the people decide what is best for their future?
Government mandates serve no purpose other than to give unscrupulous industrialists a legal way to screw the public.
saltflyfisher [Member] writes:
bitter;there are plenty of socialist countries that seem to fit what you want this country to be.I'll gladly give you a plane ticket and help you pack.Pick one .
bittersweet [Member] writes:
"let the people decide what is best for their future?"
Give me a break!
The people decided in 2008--and all you have been doing is trying to ondo it!!!
You don't care what the people want...you care what you want. Or don't want.
You don't want to see turbines....boo hoo hoo.
And saltfly...I'm not the one who has a problem with the gvt. we elected....you are!
Why don't you find a fascist tyranny somewhere that might suit you?
See how fun it is to label?
Give me a break!
The people decided in 2008--and all you have been doing is trying to ondo it!!!
You don't care what the people want...you care what you want. Or don't want.
You don't want to see turbines....boo hoo hoo.
And saltfly...I'm not the one who has a problem with the gvt. we elected....you are!
Why don't you find a fascist tyranny somewhere that might suit you?
See how fun it is to label?
crusader [Member] writes:
dolphin,
What you wrote to bitter was totally uncalled for. I'm the one who is shocked.
When will you Beck fan's wake up? Their intent is to keep us all divided. That way, they can just keep destroying this country and you are doing a great job helping them along.
Many of us have been hurt by this economy, but it's no reason to turn on each other.
bitter has every right to post on here as you do. It's a free country. Maybe you should go post on sites that worship Beck, Palin, and the real terrorists. We have been dragged into a war that we didn't sign up for and now they have left us with a huge mess to clean up.
Some of you ARE living in the past and you better fast-forward soon, or else you won't know what hit you when things really begin to unravel around here.
Hopefully, that can be prevented if we still have some people in power who wish to turn this around and can pull it off. But as long as you allow your fear to exacerbate into anger, you sound just like those talking heads on FOX news. Check out the video on youtube with Jessee Ventura and one newscaster.
What you wrote to bitter was totally uncalled for. I'm the one who is shocked.
When will you Beck fan's wake up? Their intent is to keep us all divided. That way, they can just keep destroying this country and you are doing a great job helping them along.
Many of us have been hurt by this economy, but it's no reason to turn on each other.
bitter has every right to post on here as you do. It's a free country. Maybe you should go post on sites that worship Beck, Palin, and the real terrorists. We have been dragged into a war that we didn't sign up for and now they have left us with a huge mess to clean up.
Some of you ARE living in the past and you better fast-forward soon, or else you won't know what hit you when things really begin to unravel around here.
Hopefully, that can be prevented if we still have some people in power who wish to turn this around and can pull it off. But as long as you allow your fear to exacerbate into anger, you sound just like those talking heads on FOX news. Check out the video on youtube with Jessee Ventura and one newscaster.
Ned [Member] writes:
I'd know what hits me when Beckheads like Joe Stack decide to take some folks with 'em in their final protesty/terroristy blaze of glory... hope I'm out of range in my new bunker by then...
crusader [Member] writes:
Jesse Ventura On Fox And Friends Defending The Right To Question 911
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQwzHKlqyKg
This guy who was interviewing Jesse Ventura is OUT OF LINE. He sounds like BILL MAHER another one who thinks we should be in this war because of vested interests. If we speak out we get labeled as Anti-Semitics --WRONG! How about those who perpetuate, escalate these wars, and continue to protect the Wall Street criminals--- in the MEDIA. You think they are telling you the truth when the same corporations who are working to destroy this nation are their SPONSORS?
Continue to question all our officials. There is much more going on behind the scenes. You have NO IDEA. The banking elite are running globe and many continue to sit on their hands, doing nothing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQwzHKlqyKg
This guy who was interviewing Jesse Ventura is OUT OF LINE. He sounds like BILL MAHER another one who thinks we should be in this war because of vested interests. If we speak out we get labeled as Anti-Semitics --WRONG! How about those who perpetuate, escalate these wars, and continue to protect the Wall Street criminals--- in the MEDIA. You think they are telling you the truth when the same corporations who are working to destroy this nation are their SPONSORS?
Continue to question all our officials. There is much more going on behind the scenes. You have NO IDEA. The banking elite are running globe and many continue to sit on their hands, doing nothing.
possee [Member] writes:
Savage is a bit over the top..
Holder, OB, and gang out to destroy the CIA?
Given the CIA's track record, immune from any investigation or prosecution, and ability to eliminate covertly anyone they choose, me thinks it's the other way around..
"Careful what you wish for.."
possee
Holder, OB, and gang out to destroy the CIA?
Given the CIA's track record, immune from any investigation or prosecution, and ability to eliminate covertly anyone they choose, me thinks it's the other way around..
"Careful what you wish for.."
possee
crusader [Member] writes:
Look for more on:
Jesse Ventura vs. Fox & Friends, Smacks Down Brian Kilmeade's Torture & 9/11 Propaganda....
See the one with Brian having a meltdown about the reporter who was beheaded and using that to justify the war! It was a terrible tragedy, but he showed his true alliances. Why use this reporter as an example when there have been thousands who have been killed? There is a vested reason and there it is-a veiled message.
Jesse Ventura beats Brian Kilmeade with Truth Stick
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTkZKSoSdVw
Jesse Ventura vs. Fox & Friends, Smacks Down Brian Kilmeade's Torture & 9/11 Propaganda....
See the one with Brian having a meltdown about the reporter who was beheaded and using that to justify the war! It was a terrible tragedy, but he showed his true alliances. Why use this reporter as an example when there have been thousands who have been killed? There is a vested reason and there it is-a veiled message.
Jesse Ventura beats Brian Kilmeade with Truth Stick
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTkZKSoSdVw
crusader [Member] writes:
"hope I'm out of range in my new bunker by then..."
LOL...you and the rest of us, Neddy.
LOL...you and the rest of us, Neddy.
crusader [Member] writes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1T7EeTnaZI&feature=related
had enough of this guy?
Welcome to mainstream MEDIA
had enough of this guy?
Welcome to mainstream MEDIA
crusader [Member] writes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSiJ-pvbKLE&feature=related
Just walk away because he showed his true COLORS.
Just walk away because he showed his true COLORS.
bittersweet [Member] writes:
Savage IS over the top...and he meant it as an insult to Obama, Pelosi, etc...
He is out to destroy Obama as are all zioconRight-Wingers.
He's the one with the marxist/leninist/marxist/leninist chant. The more he says it the more it sinks in the more he hopes to destroy this gvt.
Much like maverick, stalker and buzz with their bitter is on welfare and WE take care of her propaganda.
It's all the SAME TACTICS...as is the anti-wind.
Let me get this straight..this guy Boone is a real environmentlist? Yet he doesn't start caring until the windfarm comes along?
Where has he been all his life?
Like the tea-baggers! They JUST NOW start to see things....while the PERPETRATOTRS were implementing it, they saw nothing.
Uh huh...yeah right.
Crusader...there is no getting togethere here I'm afraid.
Even in the Bible, it says.."I will put enmity between you."
There is no getting along withn serpents/reptiles.
They are the enemy.
9/11 was an inside job. Go Jesse!!!
He is out to destroy Obama as are all zioconRight-Wingers.
He's the one with the marxist/leninist/marxist/leninist chant. The more he says it the more it sinks in the more he hopes to destroy this gvt.
Much like maverick, stalker and buzz with their bitter is on welfare and WE take care of her propaganda.
It's all the SAME TACTICS...as is the anti-wind.
Let me get this straight..this guy Boone is a real environmentlist? Yet he doesn't start caring until the windfarm comes along?
Where has he been all his life?
Like the tea-baggers! They JUST NOW start to see things....while the PERPETRATOTRS were implementing it, they saw nothing.
Uh huh...yeah right.
Crusader...there is no getting togethere here I'm afraid.
Even in the Bible, it says.."I will put enmity between you."
There is no getting along withn serpents/reptiles.
They are the enemy.
9/11 was an inside job. Go Jesse!!!
crusader [Member] writes:
How many times does this guy walk off the show? Is he still employed?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3yGbhW-EK4&NR=1&feature=fvwp
FOX lovers?....so who is watching the hen house...I think they have all been replaced with just FOX.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3yGbhW-EK4&NR=1&feature=fvwp
FOX lovers?....so who is watching the hen house...I think they have all been replaced with just FOX.
crusader [Member] writes:
Yes, bitter...hard to dispute with a guy who has worked in the military, in demolition, as a Gov. Who better to know? And that guy from FOX was an IDIOT going after him the way he did and using the beheaded reporter as his platform. No one likes to hear those stories, but it's all about creating a division and the more you understand which of the cultures/classes are running this country/global economy, you see what is going on. I experienced some of this personally, so I know. When you don't have the "right" last name, it can make all the difference whether you get a job or not, or whether you are considered part of the GANG.
As far as what people do to survive, what they must live on as income, where they live. I'd rather take a person who is just an average citizen as a friend instead of one who lives by the infectious disease called GREED and SELF-INTERESTS alone.
bitter, they better hope they don't all end up on welfare someday. At the rate this is going, that too may be soon coming. Keep buying those stocks and bonds. Gold is the next ponzie scheme. Enjoy!
As far as what people do to survive, what they must live on as income, where they live. I'd rather take a person who is just an average citizen as a friend instead of one who lives by the infectious disease called GREED and SELF-INTERESTS alone.
bitter, they better hope they don't all end up on welfare someday. At the rate this is going, that too may be soon coming. Keep buying those stocks and bonds. Gold is the next ponzie scheme. Enjoy!
crusader [Member] writes:
Sounds like history repeating itself...possee. I see the grassy knoll....how about you?
bittersweet [Member] writes:
"Obama May Make 'Living Wage' Factor In Awarding Contracts"
Easy to see why they hate him so much, isn't it?
Easy to see why they bring on some so-called expert to use emotionally charged rhetoric to usurp the windfarm, isn't it?
It's CENTURIES of power and control and they won't just give it up without a fight.
The ONLY thing giving me hope is that there are people inside the matrix who are sick of it too.
People who have some degeee of knowledge and power of their own.
That and the fact that there is a higher power, and a time and place for everything.
The evil ones are going down....that much I know in my bones.
And I'm just glad to be here to see it.
For the sake of the beautiful children of the future.
Easy to see why they hate him so much, isn't it?
Easy to see why they bring on some so-called expert to use emotionally charged rhetoric to usurp the windfarm, isn't it?
It's CENTURIES of power and control and they won't just give it up without a fight.
The ONLY thing giving me hope is that there are people inside the matrix who are sick of it too.
People who have some degeee of knowledge and power of their own.
That and the fact that there is a higher power, and a time and place for everything.
The evil ones are going down....that much I know in my bones.
And I'm just glad to be here to see it.
For the sake of the beautiful children of the future.
crusader [Member] writes:
bitter,
sorry...wrong link...here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKe1gUgX5do
sorry...wrong link...here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKe1gUgX5do
bittersweet [Member] writes:
"Even in the Bible, it says..I will put enmity between you. They are the enemy"
Their intention is world domination and global slavery of all the lower echelons. They are willing and devoted servants of an ancient and conscious darkness which is inimical to humanity. -Les Visible
"That and the fact that there is a higher power, and a time and place for everything."
There’s only one power that permeates and rules it all. People are in disagreement about the nature and composition of this power but that’s just the way it goes.
The more intelligent and informed that people imagine themselves to be, the more likely they are to want to supplant this power with their own insignificant posturings.
It doesn’t matter what anyone’s’ arguments are and it doesn’t matter what anyone thinks. What is is. This is why no one has ever taken over the world and no one ever will.-Les Visible
"FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 26
The Event Horizon in the Rear View Mirror."
Their intention is world domination and global slavery of all the lower echelons. They are willing and devoted servants of an ancient and conscious darkness which is inimical to humanity. -Les Visible
"That and the fact that there is a higher power, and a time and place for everything."
There’s only one power that permeates and rules it all. People are in disagreement about the nature and composition of this power but that’s just the way it goes.
The more intelligent and informed that people imagine themselves to be, the more likely they are to want to supplant this power with their own insignificant posturings.
It doesn’t matter what anyone’s’ arguments are and it doesn’t matter what anyone thinks. What is is. This is why no one has ever taken over the world and no one ever will.-Les Visible
"FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 26
The Event Horizon in the Rear View Mirror."
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Our political leaders have fallen victim to the wind energy scam which was started about 10 years ago by companies like Enron. The scam uses the public’s fear of Global Warming to convince government to subsidize and mandate alternative energy sources without regard to effectiveness. Typical of the laws passed is the Massachusetts Green Communities Act, which mandates that 25% of our electric power will come from renewable sources, mostly wind, by the year 2030.
This movement puts us on a path which will more than double the cost of electricity with little on no effect against stopping Global Warming. If anything, Global Warming is a global problem, and surrounding Cape Cod with 400 foot wind turbines is about as stupid a response as you can get.