Latimer on Law

Dick Cheney is a great American patriot. Shame on you!

capcconservative,

I wonder how the "great American patriot" Cheney would explain what he and his boss did to the deficit and national debt during their 8 years in office.

How do you explain that?

That's so true, Dave. Plus, what great "patriots" they were for just making stuff up about Saddam's WMDs and alleged connections with al Qaeda. It was so clearly false to those who knew what was really going on like Hans Blix, excluding most Republicans and all Congressional Republicans, that the leaked MI6 report to Tony Blair, the "Downing Street Memo," complained that they were "fixing the intelligence to the policy." In plainer words, they just made up facts to support their predetermined plan to invade iraq and get ahold of Saddam's oil.

But that's what American "patriots" always do, right? Just tell whatever lies they have to in order to start resource wars that get thousands of brave GIs killed so their corporate friends can exploit new markets.

That's why capecon baby has to be joking with his remark -either that or he's the joke and shame on him.

"If the corporations only can be stopped by human die off, THEN the corporations will be stopped by human die off.-Jay's Theorem

Richard,

And now we'll probably get the inevitable comeback - Most Democratic Senators voted for the war - to cover the tracks of great patriots Bush and Cheney.

The Democrats WERE wrong when they were too cowardly to stand up to the political juggernaut that was Bush/Cheney backed by a populace screaming for blood. But that doesn't absolve Bush/Cheney from lying through their teeth to take us to Iraq.

My father used to say: "Two wrongs don't make a right".

Great conservatives my a**!

Richard/Dave, didn't you see last weeks Newsweeks cover?

"The elections to be held in Iraq on March 7 feature 6,100 parliamentary candidates from all of the country's major sects and many different parties. They have wildly conflicting interests and ambitions. Yet in the past couple of years, these politicians have come to see themselves as part of the same club, where hardball political debate has supplanted civil war and legislation is hammered out, however slowly and painfully, through compromises—not dictatorial decrees or, for that matter, the executive fiats of U.S. occupiers. "

US occupiers.....
Enuff Said.

Buzz,

Thanks for the old "The end justifies the means" argument.

First, don't be so sure about the end yet. There have also been headlines this week that violence in Iraq may require US forces to stay longer than planned. We have no idea what will happen when we really pull out. I'd guess another strong man like Saddam and precious little democracy.

Second, are you saying that progress in Iraqi elections justifies the greatest lie from a President since Nixon?

Now please don't put me down in the category of people who demand Utopian truth telling from a President. All presidents mislead us when what has to be done is too politically explosive. But Bush really took the cake with Iraq: Blatant lie after blatant lie after blatant lie.

If you think that the end in a place like Iraq, including over 4000 American deaths and nearing a trillion dollars in additional debt, justify the means (the blatant lies) then that's your right. To me, the end doesn't come close to justifying the means in Iraq.

Barbara Boxer (D) CA Congratulations to our American troops who have successfully started the process of bringing Saddam Hussein to justice. As I have said many times since the first Gulf War, Saddam should be tried for the crimes against humanity that he inflicted on hundreds of thousands of people including his own countrymen.

Dianne Feinstein (D) CA Let there be no doubt, Saddam Hussein is an evil man. Now that he is in custody, a war crimes trial can be held and he can be brought to justice. It is very important that this be carried in a factual and credible way for all the world to see.

n 1988, Saddam Hussein launched extensive chemical weapons attacks on the Kurds, killing tens of thousands. Senator Kennedy (D) MA strongly supported sanctions on Iraq in order to stop these ongoing crimes,

A Guide to the 9/11 Whistleblowers
Courageous insiders, gagged, hounded and ignored

by James Corbett
****
Richard Grove...Wall Steer Whistle blower.
Discovered companies in the WTC that had been committing fraud, and eliminating people who knew about it.
Sibel Edmonds;
Said in 2009 that Osama Bin Laden was working for us all the way up until the day of 9/11.
Max Cleleand;
Resigned from the 9/11 commission because he said it was being compromised by the President.
Get that? An attack on the US and the investigation is compromised by the President. What is this, Bizarro World?
And you remember Max Cleland don't you? He's a wounded Vietnam Vet who some Republican senators called a coward.

Read the article, and then ask yourself...
Why aren't we doing something?
And then tell me about your "outrage" on the Healthcare Bill!!!

"Second, are you saying that progress in Iraqi elections justifies the greatest lie from a President since Nixon?"

"I did not have sex with that woman!"

Lost me there..... ;D

Buzz,

See my post of 4:11 which explains why Democratic cowardice does not excuse Bush's history making lies about Iraq. I knew that one was coming.

Peter,

Do you think that peaceful elections this week in Iraq justify monumental Presidential lying, over 4000 American deaths and a trillion dollars in debt? I don't.

Dave,

May I say, I saw your 4:11 posting and it was pure brilliance.

By the way.... I saw that coming as well. As a matter of fact, I see your next one coming too. Additionally, I see Richards and bitters on the way also.

After all, this is a blog... ain't it?

Dave, lighten up. We're not going to change the world on Walter and Pat's little website. Get over the BDS.

Dave says: "Do you think that peaceful elections this week in Iraq justify monumental Presidential lying, over 4000 American deaths and a trillion dollars in debt? I don't."

Dave, what are you trying to say? Would you have been okay with... let's say half a trillion and 500 deaths? What price would YOU put on peaceful Iraqi elections?

"Human Rights Watch reports that in one operation alone, the Anfal, Saddam killed 100,000 Kurdish Iraqis. Another 500,000 are estimated to have died in Saddam's needless war with Iran. Coldly taken as a daily average for the 24 years of Saddam's reign, these numbers give us a horrifying picture of between 70 and 125 civilian deaths per day for every one of Saddam's 8,000-odd days in power"

What price do you put on life Dave?

Feeding people to tigers for entertainment is way more humane than putting underwear on their head!

Buzz,

My price is about $0. We are not the world's traffic cop nor should we be in the business of nation building. When you ballyhoo Iraqi electoral progress you're bragging about our supposed success in nation building.

Do you believe that we should be a nation builder?

And by the way, even Bush didn't try to justify the invasion using nation building. Even he knew that that is not our role and that the public would have laughed at him had he proposed it pre-invasion. No, nation building became a way of covering his tracks when all of his other lies (WMD, Saddam's ties to al Qaeda, etc.) fell apart.

My price would have been $0.

Sadly Dave, we are "the world's traffic cop" and overall the world is a better place for it.

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

George Orwell

Come on Peter, you’re a lot smarter than that. Think of what you’re saying:

The Iran-Iraq War and the al-Anfal operation were both heinous. But both ended in 1988, that is, 15 years before we invaded Iraq in 2003. You’re saying that, 15 years after those awful events it was our duty to invade? Wow! That’s being a global super-cop. Invade countries for things they did 15 years ago!

Saddam was obviously a very bad guy. But it is not our duty to cruise the world taking out the world’s bad guys.

p.s. That “What price do you put on life Dave?” was a cheap shot. Well beneath you.

Peter,

Re: "Dave, lighten up. We're not going to change the world on Walter and Pat's little website. Get over the BDS."

I don't know what BDS means.

Changing the world? Now you've gotta lighten up. Debating this stuff is a little hobby for me. Isn't that what it is for you?

So what changed? Do you believe Saddam got softer in his old age?

Taking out the bad guys has unfortunately fallen on us because no one else has the stones to do it, why do you think they speak English at NATO conferences?

Look at your boy Ike's doctrine.

Death before dishonor Dave, it's code!

"But it is not our duty to cruise the world taking out the world’s bad guys."

Besides, we just can't afford it!

Hi, Buzz

So you really think the reason Bush/Cheney lied about WMDs and al Qaeda in Iraq was to start a war of liberation? Hey, I got a bridge up there in Sagamore I'll sell you for 50 grand.

"Democracy" was only the third pretext and, the beauty part of what's happening in Iraq today is that it's come back to bite Cheney in the arse. He desperately wanted 30 year leases for his masters in the US oil industry and permanent military bases, but the Iraqis wouldn't make that deal. So, 4,000 American lives later, and 150,000 or so dead Iraqi civilians, Cheney's oil war failed and guys like you are pretending it was all about "democracy."

Yeah, sure, kill 150,000 or so folks, drive tens of thousands of others into exile for religious reasons, and that's how you make them free. Lewis Carroll couldn't even dream that one up.

I can't wait to see what you guys are say when all our troops leave and the democratic Shiite Iraqi government starts to align itself with the Shiite Iranian government -thus completing the Bush/Cheney screw up of mid East geopolitics.

Peter,

To my knowledge, Ike never wrote down a doctrine. But if he had, it would have been entitled: “Avoid shooting wars at all cost”. Can you name a shooting war that Ike ever got us into?

Perhaps better than any president before and certainly any since, Ike understood the cost of war. And he avoided them like the plague. That’s where his CIA dirty tricks came from. He considered those to be “war on the cheap”. France tried to convince Ike to take over for them in Vietnam. No dice. Too bad LBJ didn’t go to school on that. France and England got a taste of Ike’s doctrine when they invaded Egypt. Boy did they ever scurry home after receiving the old Ike spank.

There may have never been a president less likely to invade Iraq in 2003 than Ike. He understood that war is an ugly, bloody costly thing. He would never have taken a bad guy like Saddam down whose worst crimes were 15 years in the past.

Here Dave, debating this "stuff", is a joke.

BDS is Bush Derangement Syndrome.

You are regressing to when dkfalmouth first appeared and we wondered if you were Richard's alter ego.

ps. Cape wind will get the pass,that is if bootlicker Salazar (in between raping the Western states) wants to keep his job.

Congrats on your victory and the prostitution of Nantucket Sound.

Peter,

Why don't you try to show a little class and either:

a. Just tell me where I'm wrong
b. Take your own advice and drop out of the debate.

My god - 3 cheap shots in one night. Are you feeling OK?

Hi, Peter

About 150,000 civilians dead in Iraq as "collateral damage" in the Bush/Cheney oil war. This was an invasion about which Gen. Tommy Franks said up front would include a high level of "collateral damage targeting." So, "what price do you put on human life," Pete?

Saddam's killing of Turks is about on a par with the U.S. Government's killing of native Americans when it was our guys like Jackson and Custer doing the nation building and achieving our "manifest destiny." But, that's o.k., 'cause we wear the white hats and God's on our side, right?

BTW, do you remember who set Saddam up in June 1979 as a secular Sunni despot and a counterforce against the theocratic Iranian regime after the Shah was overthrown in February that same year? Who put him in power precisely to engage Iran as our proxy in that "needless war" that cost a half-million human lives? Nah, guys like you always have short memories about things like that -things that show the flat out hypocrisy of your jingoist "patriotism" and ideological belief system.

Dave

Ike once said, if anyone says they want a pre-emptive war, tell them to go fight it themselves. He'd puke if he knew what Bush and Cheney had done in Iraq in the name of "democracy" as the leaders of his party. Of course, we both know the GOP today is not the Republican Party of Eisenhower -or even Nixon and Ford.

Has everyone attention deficit disorder?

In 1982, Iraq was removed from a list of State Sponsors of Terrorism to ease the transfer of dual-use technology to that country.

Starting in 1982 with Iranian success on the battlefield, the United States made its backing of Iraq more pronounced, normalizing relations with the government, supplying it with economic aid, counter-insurgency training, operational intelligence on the battlefield, and weapons.
United States actively supported the Iraqi war effort by supplying the Iraqis with billions of dollars of credits, by providing U.S. military intelligence and advice to the Iraqis, and by closely monitoring third country arms sales to Iraq to make sure that Iraq had the military weaponry required. The United States also provided strategic operational advice to the Iraqis to better use their assets in combat...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran%E2%

Richard, Peter, Dave, Buzz

You continue the defense of your so called parties ad nauseum and completely fail to accept the facts available.

Obama, Clinton, Bush etc are all culpable and complicit in a game that few, yet more are beginning to understand,that compromises all of us.
Once you take off the blinders of party allegiance and defense, and think, research, and read the facts..only then will you understand that perspective..

Coming from a military, state dept,,and intel family..I perceive from a different world view...

political atheism..

Thank you

possee

Dick,
In your opinion,from the creation of the "living document" forward,is their anything this country has done to improve humanity?
Every bit of your circular reasoning,hate,and confused logic ends up with this country doing wrong.
You could reduce your posted words incredibly by listing the few things you actually like about this country,if any.

Eisenhower Doctrine.

Basically, if the Commies screw with the Jews, we (the USA) will bomb them back to the stone ages.


President Dwight D. Eisenhower announced the Eisenhower Doctrine in January 1957, and Congress approved it in March of the same year. Under the Eisenhower Doctrine, a country could request American economic assistance and/or aid from U.S. military forces if it was being threatened by armed aggression from another state. Eisenhower singled out the Soviet threat in his doctrine by authorizing the commitment of U.S. forces to secure and protect the territorial integrity and political independence of such nations, requesting such aid against overt armed aggression from any nation controlled by international communism.

Some day Dave I can only hope I'll be as astute as you and the counselor.

Just remember "BUSH SUCKS" and everything will be all right!

possee, not defending anyone, just presenting the facts and the problem is .....?

Ike was watching out for the OIL Channel! The same one Dubya and Dick just stole. Dopes Unlimited.

See you 11/02/10

Yeah-life is precious unless it's the enemy...then they're not even human! Then you can do all sorts of evil stuff and justify it, huh?
Some guy from another site said it best: The only ones ever pushing for war are ones who have never been in one.
Smedley Butler: "War is a Racket. I killed for the arms dealers and manufacturers."
And I think Jews were the commies...in Stalin's time? right?
30 million dead...gulags, Alexander Solzenitchin (sp)-read it?The Gulag Archipelago.Ukraine starved out of existence.
And let's not forget the Native American and African horrors that were committed here.
Boy, if we want to start pointing fingers, we'll run out of hands!
"Just remember "BUSH SUCKS" and everything will be all right!"
Uh--you're behind the times there--
"Obama sucks"-he's not an American-and he wants to destroy America....that's the new one.
Savage wants to impeach him....and yet, the whole former regime roams the earth, oblivious to their multitude of provable crimes....
What a world!

bitter,

Bush got to finish the dirty work his daddy started as head of the CIA. What's not to understand? It scares them more to think the country could be outnumbered by people of various nationalities and cultures. Sure, it's okay to use them all as slave workers, but "not in our own backyard". If only they could be recorded in their own little boys club spewing the hatred they have for minorities. Then put it up on CNN for all to hear. Plantation owners and their slaves, not much has changed at all, has it? The reason they get away with so much, is because they pay everyone off and those who cannot be bought are taken care of, all in the name of "free enterprise". Oliver North is hailed a hero on FOX News, even though that all came out about the arms deals. Sure Reagan didn't know, keep smokin' that crack pipe. The true enemies are glorified because they bring in major profits for the elite. People were willing to look the other way at corruption when this didn't jeopardize our freedoms, now they have gone too far. Colleges teach population explosion & globalization for a reason.

You know crusader..there's a video out there called the Argentina Economic Collapse, or the Economic Collapse of Argentina..one of the 2...anyway, it states in there that HW Bush sold the American people--as a commodity! Sold us off as the next cheap labor pool for International Corporations...
Just to think about that makes you sick. But that's what we need to do. We need to face the reality of what we have allowed to happen here.
Because when 9/11 happened, I KNEW it was them(us). And my boyfriend said, "I can't think our gvt. would do that...I just can't believe it."..and this guy had been a Marine in Vietnam!!
So--you have said it before...people just don't want to even think about it....but for god's sakes--it's been proven by now!
Torture...hello!
Lies.Going how far back?
And always pitting poor against poor/middle against poor, while they laugh all the way to the bank and back.
Just think what Kissinger said about soldiers and you will see....useles eaters? It's all true!

bitter,

"sold us off as a commodity", well sure, why do you think they've been hanging out with the most brutal dictators in the world. They took lessons. The Bush family had ties to the Bin Laden family for years through oil ventures and you must ask what went wrong with that marriage? Something big, no doubt. The Iraqi's were forced to fight Iran years ago, orders came from the US, but were followed through by Saddam. They use dictators like toilet paper and when they are through, "FLUSH". Dirty deeds are done through layers. It's the same rule book, but with different players. The oil in Kuwait was pumped out by Saddam and thousands of Iraqi's were slaughtered after they were done working as slaves. The only reason we are occupying Iraqi is for strategic takeover of the middle-east. Isn't that obvious? Democracy in Iraqi? Yeah, right, just like we have democracy here. It's all BS just to keep everyone in la-la-land.

bitter, people are too busy worrying about their families survival. Fear mongering has worked to their benefit. Those of us who are critical thinkers understand.

bitter,

Look at the history. The English are still colonizing, it never stopped. The banking families are too powerful and have been aligned with corporations for decades. Now they have infiltrated government with lobbyists who influence policy. Just ask any large university who their major donors are--it's all there. Of course there is nothing wrong with that if they play by the rules and don't impoverish an entire nation and global community all in the name of GREED. Money has become the supreme ruler and only thing that is respected in our society. When greed dominates, the once ethical practices of our society are eroded beyond repair. It got to the point where many wanted what everyone else had instead of being happy with a simple life. Through advertising, they were able to infect our children with over priced material possessions. That was part of it, then it led to housing. But many were looking for a way to invest in the future of their children through college loans, or retirement. Wall Street stopped paying years ago. You had to be an insider, as the job market.

bitter,

You once shared your views of Alex Jones. How do you feel about Ron Paul? Check out this youtube:

Ron Paul Exposes CIA & Federal Reserves's drug running business on Alex Jones TV 1/2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtjwHHKp3GE

The level of conversation on these sites is more justification that the closing of mental institutions was a bad idea.
This is the new normal.
Thanx Duke.

bitter,

Here's another:

Specifically, what Ron Paul says of our government's relationship with dictators and once described "friends" turned into "enemies":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUYDt7kC3Z0&feature=related

King of the spin doctors harassing Ron Paul about Iran...why shouldn't Iran or any other country defend themselves against invasion? What is this damn war about anyway? GUNS, DRUGS, OIL. How many profits have they gained by the cartels that have been in place for decades. How many more of our children will be corrupted and poisoned by the use of drugs? Everyone has heard what is over in Afganistan. It's a huge market and you see the global turf wars continuing, one superpower bully going after another nation to total control and occupation. When we give up our manufacturing plants, what else? Just sell drugs, guns and oil while stripping this nation of all else. Not many care, bitter, because they still get to drive around in their new cars, can keep their homes and get paid by some of the biggest corporate criminals of our time. I'm still trying to rent my apartment. The latest prospect was a guy who worked at a major pharm for the past 20 yrs, one that's been in the headlines. He wanted my driveway. I told him to screw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7JPvbVsDdY&feature=related

Right...thanks to Ronnie, you had mental patients becoming homeless.
Of course, when HE had dementia, nothing but the best would do huh?
Crusader..something about Ron Paul bugs me..I don't know what. He was at CPAC for one..also at Right to Life rallies.But I will watch that video--maybe change my mind!
Since we're on the whole counter-media thing,I once read that Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich were the two "allowed" dissenters.Implying that they were allowed to be "against the system", but in order to help the system...the same entity controlling both sides.
But once again...take it with a grain of salt! I personally love Kucinich. When I watch him, there's always at least once when my fist pumps the air and I say "YES"!
Plus, I asked this of Roman once; "Why are they letting all this come out? We're only hearing it cause they want us to, right?"
He said they don't care because people only laugh at "conspiracy nuts"..But I think there's more to it.
Must be more to it..because this stuff is devastating ..to some. Maybe they're not the real culprits?
Keep plugging. The world is turning.

bitter,

I don't believe any one politician is our hero. It's dangerous to give one person that much credit. Even the most well intended can find they end up with too many sharp pebbles in their shoes when they walk into unknown territory. But Ron Paul's views about preserving our country and getting out of the war makes much sense to me. It's important to look at the history of war and there you see the patterns. My dad use to say, "the only reason for war is to provide big business for the capitalists" and a family member who worked in the government shared, "if the American people knew what we did in other countries, they would be shocked and horrified". But when you hear it in the news, they always spin it in such a way that it makes them look like heros. I know a family from Iraqi. The husband was once an Iraqi soldier who found the war in Iran. He has been a soldier since he was 16. He and his family were taken here in an army plane as "refugees", during desert storm. Suddam's own people tried to kill him. Wonder why the media will never interview a family from Iraqi or Iran?

What bugged me the most was this; "They need to get on their own feet and defend their own country"--as if they had asked for this whole thing! As if they were little children who had to be reprimanded by mommy/daddy America.
But anyway--Barney Frank has written a letter to Bernanke and told him to look into Ron Paul's claims and get back to him.
As Frank is Chairman of the Banking Committee...let's see how Bernanke responds!
But that's two...Paul and Frank...and Kucinich and Kaptur I'm sure and Grayson all will go along with an audit of the Fed.
Haven't 93 agreed already?
They'll have to spin their way out of this one.....
Interesting times we live in.
Pres is on C-span...gotta go!

bitter,

The husband was once an Iraqi soldier who was forced to fight the war in Iran. I learned some things about the horrors endured by the people of Iraq during the American invasion & occupation. None of it is flattering, none of it is something to make one proud of their country and the way they ruin lives of millions. Many people in Iraqi wanted to take out Saddam, but his army was too powerful. They wouldn't hesitate to take out an entire family of a known enemy. But our government is responsible for putting Saddam in power. So what does that say?
One claim is that 911 was in retaliation for money stolen in the middle east and continued slaughtering. How much true journalism has been reported since 911? We are only getting one side of the bloody saga because to expose the entire mess would mean global collapse. Are the people ready to hear the horror stories? We are still waiting to hear about assassination of JFK. isn't it interesting that claims were made that one of his main objectives was to take down the CIA. Not much changes, does it? It's always the same objectives.

bitter,

It all ties in with the rest - Ponzie schemes, oil, drugs, arms, human trafficking has never paid so well, all in the name of "free enterprise", as a guise of criminal activity and have an army of corporate lawyers to defend them. The plan is to create a system filled with people who are made to go along. Those who are resistant will eventually fall as their next prey unless the members in govt rise up against the obvious tyranny. Here is what the Wall Stree whistle blower had to say, I have been in communication:

"As for what will cure all this Wall Street crime, it will require getting corporations out of our government, i.e., an end to corporate campaign financing completely".

"They are equal opportunity pillagers. They stole from their own wealthy clients as well as small investors. No motive or agenda other than abject greed".

"It's tragic but it's true. The root of the evil is campaign financing. Our government no longer represents the people; it represents the special interests who provide the financing to keep them in office".

McConnell just said reconciliation was only used by the Republicans when the American people supported it.
Really?
Did we all support the tax cuts both times? Not on your life!
Did they call it thumbing their noses at the American people whan they did it? uh--no.
***
I agree with everything Obama just said about the healthcare bill...Sense and Fairness!
And so you Pubs can stop telling me what I want and don't want...unless you don't count me as an American.
Which wouldn't be a surprise, since you have called me anti-American since 2001.

Pass this bill--it will be a huge plus.

The Republicans are threatening the next election if it passes...well, let them!

They make me sick..so stop telling me what I, as an American, want.
It's not you!!!

bitter,

Here is a list of her stories:

http://www.alternet.org/authors/8967/

"The root of the evil is campaign financing. Our government no longer represents the people; it represents the special interests who provide the financing to keep them in office".

Makes me think of Scott Brown...most of his money came from out of state...how is that?
Why do they care about Massachusetts politics?
Duh.
ahahaha
Stick it to em Scott. They deserve it!

$7 in the checking account,and against tax cuts.
Perfect.

bitter,

Here's another story that needs closer examination:

http://siu.blogs.cnn.com/2010/02/01/are-americans-being-forgotten-on-vieques/

Oh no I'm for tax cuts...just Obama's kind, not yours!

I favor helping the lower 95% over the top 5.

You, on the other hand, only care for the wealthy.

Hi, coy

America has done a lot of good, and I've never denied it. But, in politics as in life, you have to look at the bad as well as the good. If you don't, it only makes you out to be a mindless ideologue -like Bush and Cheney.

Yes, the very fact of establishing the world's first constitutional democratic republic, based on ideas borrowed from the European enlightenment, was a major advance in the cause of humanity.

The fact that it still allowed slavery to exist has to be seen as a setback, that took a civil war to correct, and another advance, simultaneously regressing with the "Indian wars."

Then 90 years of Jim Crow based on "states rights" were a huge setback, corrected in 1954 by the Supreme Court and federal troops -another advance. Defeating Hitler in 1945 was a big advance.

The divisive politics created by the post-Reagan GOP that preaches small government, tax cutting and states rights is another setback for both humanity and for the Constitution as well -along with the "free market" economic crash of 2008 created by Reaganomic deregulation and tax cuts.

Richard,

"The fact that it still allowed slavery to exist has to be seen as a setback, that took a civil war to correct, and another advance, simultaneously regressing with the Indian wars."--

How did the southern plantation owners accumulate such great wealth? It was off the backs of the slaves who labored for them. What of the indians who were the true natives of this land? They managed to drive them into conservations not fit for livestock. The sale of guns and liquor to many tribes is what helped them defeat and conquer. Companies have been allowed to outsource our jobs and bring in foreign workers on temporary visa's. I guess that's okay as long as they don't stay too long, expect luxuries like housing, education or that worse mortal sin of all-- bestowing affordable or paid healthcare! Why don't the same employers pay for their health insurance? No, they won't, same reason they don't pay for worker's comp. When they are done, just toss them out like yesterday's garbage. So what's changed?

Peter,

OK, you got me on Ike not having written down an Eisenhower Doctrine. Congratulations.

But you swung and missed on the substance of the argument. Even the websites that you cut and pasted from without attribution say that this was a foreign aid bill. It made assistance, including military assistance, available to countries threatened by communism.

As you may recall, we were debating whether or not the US should get involved with shooting wars such as Iraq to benefit foreign populations.

I'm sure that you'll agree that military aid is not the same as entering a shooting war. Ike was adamantly opposed to the latter and nobody would have criticized Bush more loudly than Ike for the shooting Iraq War.

Hey bitter,

Have you found a website outlining 911/WTC Building 7 and what was housed there?

Documents and Command Center Destroyed

"At the time of its destruction, Building 7 housed documents relating to numerous SEC investigations. The files for approximately three to four thousand cases were destroyed, according to the Los Angeles Times. Among the destroyed documents were ones that may have demonstrated the relationship between Citigroup and the WorldCom bankruptcy".

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/wtc7/index.html

Hey bitter,

Did someone leave a window open and let a nasty gnat into the room?

Biggest clue of all--Building 7.

http://www.wtc7.net/background.html

crusader, do you know that Bob Kerry, who was on the 9/11 commission, said it was a 30 year old conspiracy??
He said he didn't know if they would ever get to the bottom of it.
But OBVIOUSLY so many people know what's what.
So why are we not arresting people?
I swear, it's as if we are under a spell.

well-that explains the title of that book; Trance-Formation of America.

Cher, in Moonstruck: "Snap out of it!"...SLAP!

Hi, Cru

It's an old story. I'm sure you remember this version of "Deportee."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_2F4OrHeak

So, Peter

Since you ask whether Dave thinks Saddam got softer his old age, it's only fair to ask if you think Pinochet got softer in his old age. You know, the right wing Chilean tyrant who suppressed dissent with torture and midnight death squads. He even found it necessary to murder a few Spanish nuns, but that's o.k., right, Petey?

Maybe he got "softer" in his old age and that's why the U.S. kept him from ever going to trial for crimes against humanity as charged by Spain. You think?

Or maybe it was because our top spooks didn't want him to talk about the things they'd done to help him overthrow Allende and then maintain power in Chile. Nah, that couldn't be the reason, could it Petey?

Dick,
Thanks for a little taste of that circular reasoning.
Reason 135 why you hate this country.
Do you have the reasons cataloged this way?
Love to see the list.
You are the guy that accuses others of ideological thinking.
Too funny.

Those conspiracy theories are really beginning to rack up and taking shape.

"The War on Freedom", c02', provides an outline of all events leading up to and after 911 including the history of Afghanistan.

"The current state of affairs in Afghanistan has its roots in a history that can be traced back to at least the end of the 19th century. Afghanistan has been the victim of numerous catastrophic interventions by the world's superpowers, from the British Empire, to the Soviet Union and the United States, which have left the country devastated and in ruins...the superpowers had no intention to improve the affairs of the people...rather their involvement was motivated by their own interests. Also well documented is the crucial factor of the abundant oil and gas resources recently discovered in the Caspian Sea. Afghanistan is considered the prime trans-shipment route for pipelines to these energy deposits...and has great strategic value to those powers who desire to expand their hegemony to global proportions..has been long recognized as the principal gateway to Central Asia, 97'CFR".

bitter,

911 commission report-- more has been coming out about those who discount it. I listened to a lecture several years ago by supporters of: http://www.911truth.org/. That is when I was convinced there was much more to the story they weren't telling us. They provided digital footage of the collapse of the twin towers and by the still shots, you could see red lights (detonation) timed precisely, as the floors descended to the ground. There are thousands of engineers, scientists and witnesses who have come forward to provide their testimony to dispute the report, but as usual, the corporate owned media will not release that information.

bitter, Richard, possee,

If at all interested, research the following books:

"The War on Freedom", "Beyond the green zone, dispatches from an unembedded journalist in occupied Iraq", and "Civil Rights in Peril".

If you don't want to pick up the books, you can look them up on amazon.com and read reviews or scan a few pages if the option is available.

We must all educate ourselves, because they will not do it for us--stay informed, ignore the static.

"The term "conspiracy theory" is often used to denigrate and discredit inquiry into the veracity of suspected SCADs. Labeling SCAD research as "conspiracy theory" is an effective method of preventing ongoing investigations from being reported in the corporate media and keep them outside of broader public scrutiny. Psychologist Laurie Manwell, University of Guelph, addresses the psychological advantage that SCAD actors hold in the public sphere. Manwell, writing in American Behavioral Scientist (Sage 2010) states, "research shows that people are far less willing to examine information that disputes, rather than confirms, their beliefs . . . pre-existing beliefs can interfere with SCADs inquiry, especially in regards to September 11, 2001."3

Friday, March 5 2010 - In the Media
New Research on State Crimes Against Democracy

By Peter Phillips and Mickey Huff
March 4, 2010
DailyCensored.com

http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20100305140121201

"Back in 2006, I wrote a post entitled A Nation of Hypocrites that focused on the case of Donald Vance and Nathan Ertel, private military contractors working in Iraq. The two men uncovered what appeared to be illegal arms dealing by their employer, Shield Group Security, and reported it to outside authorities".

http://sensen-no-sen.blogspot.com/2010/03/puckering-mr-cheney.html

Crusader,

I am a devout conspiracy theorist debunker, probably too much so. Let me explain my skepticism using a book that I read years ago about the Kennedy assassination: Case Closed by Gerald Posner.

In this book, Posner provides a VERY detailed description of the life of Oswald & Ruby. It’s possible to track Oswald’s movements day by day in 1963 because he punched a clock at work & hooked a ride to the suburbs every weekend to visit his wife. Posner goes through the timetable of Oswald & Ruby & stops along the way to torpedo one popular conspiracy theory after another. Things like: “Oswald didn’t meet mafia boss A on day B as theorist C suggests because he was in location D at that time”. I came away thinking that people yearn to blame someone larger than Oswald for the death of an iconic president and that the theorists tap into that yearning.

Getting back to 9/11: If the media won’t release the thousands of reports that you mention, haven’t you taken a leap of faith to believe that they exist & are credible?

"the case of Donald Vance and Nathan Ertel, private military contractors working in Iraq. The two men uncovered what appeared to be illegal arms dealing by their employer, Shield Group Security"

I wonder if this is the same case!!:

CHICAGO � A federal judge refused Friday to dismiss a civil lawsuit accusing former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld of responsibility for the alleged torture by U.S. forces of two Americans who worked for an Iraqi contracting firm.
They claimed that they were tortured after reporting alleged illegal activities by their company."
***
Imagine that...being tortured by your own people for going up against the corporation...
What is America coming to?
Just as I saw on Democracy Now this morning, protestors in Oakland were beaten brutally by the police...
Who are these police working for?
What could make them beat their fellow citizens like that?
For just expressing themselves--which is their right!