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:: Friday, November 21st, 2008Against the Wind
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The Overestimated Value of Wind Farms
12/22/05 · 1:11 pm :: posted by Magical Eye
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Is this what we want to see happening to our America the Beautiful?
Since the Kyoto protocol, governments all over the world are pushing for renewal energy, as they should. Wind turbines are awfully attractive since they are prominent 'symbols' of an attempt to do just that, are paid for mostly by private enterprise and subsidized by the consumers. What a win win situation for them! Still, the facts and figures as to the value of Wind Farms in the issue of global warming are just not there.
"Over 100 leading German academics concluded: The negative effects of wind energy are as much underestimated as the positive contributions are overestimated".
Denmark, whose facilities are held up by Cape Wind as 'harmless' to the environment and state of the art, is calling for a moratorium on wind farm development so it can re-assess their worth. Unbelievable! These dinosaurs are all over Denmark now and the people there pay a HUGE price for not only them but their electricity.
Meanwhile, the Earth who already suffers from mankind and its unbridled and wasteful use of all of its resources is the one who is expected to pay the price. It is important to remember that wind farms are, what I would call, a fad (remember the bomb shelters that sprung 'down' all over the country?).
Everyone is jumping on the band-wagon for this feel good, highly visible, quick fix to a complicated problem that just won't and doesn't work. If any thing it will be a drop in the bucket... and those buckets when strung together across the earth will be an ugly eye sore of human folly. Not to mention the fact that at the same time we will be destroying precious habitat, species and delicate eco-systems.
Honestly, if we think we can live without these God given gifts of other life on the planet, we truly have arrived at the height of arrogance! It makes no sense to destroy the planet while attempting to save it.
79 comments
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Peter Porcupine [Visitor] writes:
Magical - about your map of Scotland -Proposed dosn't mean built. It is routine to PROPOSE several sites, and not all will be constructed. For instance, there are three proposed sites I am aware of in Nantucket Sound, and who knows how many in Texas. You are intelligent enough to understand that alarmist propaganda blows up in your face, like it did with the Alliance.
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
Wrong Anamymous... you just can't see the wording on the bottom.
Red= proposed or application
Blue= approved or operational
Black= recently failed
Red= proposed or application
Blue= approved or operational
Black= recently failed
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
Interesting Monseiur le Porcupine that when the other side of the debate shows a picture that the pro-wind people don't like or want to see they call it propaganda :)
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
I beg to differ Anonymous... we will still have power plants and they will be doing business as usual... the wind will just blow the polution around a bit! :))
brava! [Visitor] writes:
Hooray for Magic!
Keep up the good work. You are a defender of the the World.
Thank you so much!
Keep up the good work. You are a defender of the the World.
Thank you so much!
Henry Hub [Visitor] writes:
Glad to see your "eye sore" comment, I think it reveals what this issue to you is really about.
Wind has been the fastest growing source of energy in the world for about 8 years, for how many more years would this need to be true before you questioned your premise that it is just a "fad" and that wind power doesn't really work? Your comment about Denmark and a moratorium is sheer nonsense - Denmark has just approved doubling the offshore wind farms at Horns Rev and Nysted - where do you get your information?
Wind has been the fastest growing source of energy in the world for about 8 years, for how many more years would this need to be true before you questioned your premise that it is just a "fad" and that wind power doesn't really work? Your comment about Denmark and a moratorium is sheer nonsense - Denmark has just approved doubling the offshore wind farms at Horns Rev and Nysted - where do you get your information?
Mr. Wizard [Visitor] writes:
Shame on you Magical Eye! Until now you have seemd a naive but fair critic of Cape Wind.
But your photograph above is a grossy exagerated version of the 130 turbines proposed for Nantucket Sound which are to be spread over 23 square miles.
And you KNOW IT.
For shame. I had assumed you would conduct a passionate but fair and balanced discussion. You just lost me and countless others with whom you might have been able to a discourse. From today on you will only be "preaching to the NIMBY choir."
But your photograph above is a grossy exagerated version of the 130 turbines proposed for Nantucket Sound which are to be spread over 23 square miles.
And you KNOW IT.
For shame. I had assumed you would conduct a passionate but fair and balanced discussion. You just lost me and countless others with whom you might have been able to a discourse. From today on you will only be "preaching to the NIMBY choir."
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
The photograph was chosen to illustrate the purpose of this column. It is not the proposed, as you can see, Cape Wind. But YOU and others routinely show glossy photos of wind turbines that might make some think these are just nothing but beautiful and benign kenitic sculptures which do also not represent Cape Wind and the point of my column what we are headed for in the future if this thing goes unchecked. So are you saying what is good for the gander is not good for the goose?
anonymous too [Visitor] writes:
Is ME one of those corprate shills devoted to scaring people away from alternatives energy sources in support of oil, nuclear and coal. I noticed that ME doesn't give references for his German statement or his assertion that the Dutch have a moratorium on wind farm development. Maybe ME would prefer Open pit coal mines. We are dependent on imported oil. Oil production is going to peak in the near future. If ME has a solution to the energy crisis. Please, tell us. Be a part of the solution. We can stop building wind farms when when someone presents a better cleaner solution.
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
no sadly ME is probably one of the most non profit individuals you will ever meet. I didn't say the Dutch I said Denmark. I did the research... why don't you try it? It is very enlightening. Here are some renewable energy alternatives to coal, oil and nuclear in case you were thinking wind is the only one... "Hydro, Photovoltaics, Active Solar Heating, Passive Solar Design, Photoconversion, Waste to Energy, Landfill Gas, Geothermal, Agricultural and Forestry Waste, Energy Crops, Wave Power and Tidal Energy. Wind, Hydro, Waste to Energy, Biomass and Wave are all promoted through subsidy."
Anonymous [Visitor] writes:
"...It makes no sense to destroy the planet while attempting to save it."
What an assinine statement. Of course it doesn't, and do you REALLY believe the kinetic art of a windmill is worse than the thousand ugly, smoke-spewing power plants like the one at Cape Cod Canal and at Brayton Point just west of us?
What blatant dissembling humbug. Clean up your act while we clean up the air we breath with renewable, wind power.
What an assinine statement. Of course it doesn't, and do you REALLY believe the kinetic art of a windmill is worse than the thousand ugly, smoke-spewing power plants like the one at Cape Cod Canal and at Brayton Point just west of us?
What blatant dissembling humbug. Clean up your act while we clean up the air we breath with renewable, wind power.
The Blogfather [Member] writes:
I spent a week in eastern Germany this June, and every journalist, academic and tourism official I met (and I met a hundred since they were hosting me) extolled the German experince with wind power and said they planned to expodentially expand its use in the immediate future.
They already were paying over $6 a gallon for regular gas BEFORE the recent increases.
I visited Wartburg Castle in Eisenach which is more than just an UNESCO World Cultural Heritage site. It is considered the German nation's number one historic monument, the place where Luther sought refuge after being excommunicated by Rome, and it is surrounded by wind farms which can be seen from every wall.
If you want the facts, read them here.
They already were paying over $6 a gallon for regular gas BEFORE the recent increases.
I visited Wartburg Castle in Eisenach which is more than just an UNESCO World Cultural Heritage site. It is considered the German nation's number one historic monument, the place where Luther sought refuge after being excommunicated by Rome, and it is surrounded by wind farms which can be seen from every wall.
If you want the facts, read them here.
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
Annonymous... you are really getting hot under that collar of yours! Why? Is it the simplicity, directness and ring of truth of the statement that is so troubling? As the Blogfather just wrote the officials etc. he met are planning to exponentially expand their wind farms. And if there, why not here? Like I said, the earth we are attempting to protect will be the one with all of these new blights upon it and billions of birds and animals will die as a result. Without them so too will we. And interestingly enough with dinosaurs left behind to show where we were. :)
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
PS. Anonymous I repeat there are alternatives and all should be explored completely before we do something harmful to our already suffering planet. Here they are..."Hydro, Photovoltaics, Active Solar Heating, Passive Solar Design, Photoconversion, Waste to Energy, Landfill Gas, Geothermal, Agricultural and Forestry Waste, Energy Crops, Wave Power and Tidal Energy. Wind, Hydro, Waste to Energy, Biomass and Wave are all promoted through subsidy."
Monponsett [Member] writes:
How many of us REALLY have jobs that need cars? We should just all use horses, save for shipping and emergency services.
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
What a wonderful world this would be :)
Self-Reliance [Visitor] writes:
Why do you show a windfarm built in the early 80's to demonstrate to people the future of wind turbines? Today's wind turbines are "nothing but beautiful and benign kenitic sculptures" - as you've just described them to be when you see pictures of modern ones. This example is obviously designed to scare people with conjecture and disception, rather than facts and reality.
If I wanted to show the future of computers I wouldn't show a picture of an early 1980's TRS-80 or Apple II. If I was to show the future of cell phones I wouldn't show the early wine bottle sized devices that started this industry. What a terrible way to start a blog!
The future of wind turbines is big and beautiful.
If I wanted to show the future of computers I wouldn't show a picture of an early 1980's TRS-80 or Apple II. If I was to show the future of cell phones I wouldn't show the early wine bottle sized devices that started this industry. What a terrible way to start a blog!
The future of wind turbines is big and beautiful.
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
Do you think this one is coming down, self-reliance? Nope it will be among all of the rest old and new that are spreading like locust across the earth. one empire state building might be pretty but millions of them? I think not! Sorry you don't like the way I started my blog but unless I were to be a nice little girl and not have much to say you wouldn't like it anyway, now would you?
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
And PS Self-Reliance I am not writing this for a popularity contest... this is about showing the other side of the wind, of which I am opposed.
Henry Hub [Visitor] writes:
I ask again Magical Eye - where do you get your (mis)information about Denmark and wind? It is completely wrong - I follow the news wires from Europe on energy closely, I've seen recent offshore wind expansion approvals from the Danish government but nothing about a moratorium - where did you get that?
wise and concerned [Visitor] writes:
First, wind power has nothing to do with imported oil. Or perhaps you expect to start seeing cars with windmills on the roof?! Only a fraction of a percent of our electricity is generated from oil.
Second, wind power will not replace any power plants. Why? because it's intermittent-- it only works when the wind is blowing (but not too hard). Over-generation is wasted, not stored. You cannot run a hospital or school or factory on wind power.
Third, the rising demand for electric power has nothing to do with independence or self-reliance. It's about lighting our suburban shopping malls 24x7 and other extreme wastes of energy. Just shut off 25% of those parking lot lights etc will reap more benefit than all the windfarms you can build from here to california.
Second, wind power will not replace any power plants. Why? because it's intermittent-- it only works when the wind is blowing (but not too hard). Over-generation is wasted, not stored. You cannot run a hospital or school or factory on wind power.
Third, the rising demand for electric power has nothing to do with independence or self-reliance. It's about lighting our suburban shopping malls 24x7 and other extreme wastes of energy. Just shut off 25% of those parking lot lights etc will reap more benefit than all the windfarms you can build from here to california.
wise and concerned [Visitor] writes:
Lastly, look at the numbers. The amount of megawatts generated by the proposed wind power plant is negligable and has no market sustainablity, except for the tax subsudies and green credits traded on the Enron-like after markets. Change the laws, you're left with enormous rusting dinosaurs.
Feel good, maybe. Practical, not.
Feel good, maybe. Practical, not.
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
Sorry Henry I can't lay my hands on it for you at the moment but I do check out my sources. Perhaps you can do the research yourself.
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
Agree wise and concerned. This will just ADD not subtract from the mix. By the way, I like your image of cars with windmills on their roofs! :)
Notinmybackyard [Visitor] writes:
Do not place them by the sea! The sea level is going to rise 48'do to global warming - honest, I read it on the internet.
great Gadfly [Visitor] writes:
It is interesting that Sweden is RE-AUTHORIZING the construction of nuclear power plants, which it had previously outlawed, and that there are persistent reports of officials in Scandinavia saying that windpower to date is disappointing in both cost and yield.
I personally have no experience with any wind farm projects in Europe. But, it would seem to me that if wind power is the panacea we are told it is we would hear bellows of joy being heard from countries where they are supposed to be such a boon. And the cost of elctricty in Denmark would be far lower than it is now.
In fact, I am not sure anyone from the Cape Wind side of the world has ever shown in concrete fashion that Wind power has either provided a substantial portion of any country's energy demand or has reduced energy costs. Maybe I mised something, but such evidence would go a long way toward bolstering Cape Wind's claims. If you've got the goods, put them out for everyone to see.
I personally have no experience with any wind farm projects in Europe. But, it would seem to me that if wind power is the panacea we are told it is we would hear bellows of joy being heard from countries where they are supposed to be such a boon. And the cost of elctricty in Denmark would be far lower than it is now.
In fact, I am not sure anyone from the Cape Wind side of the world has ever shown in concrete fashion that Wind power has either provided a substantial portion of any country's energy demand or has reduced energy costs. Maybe I mised something, but such evidence would go a long way toward bolstering Cape Wind's claims. If you've got the goods, put them out for everyone to see.
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
Hey notinmybackyard this is on the internet too. Who knows?
Recycling the old "it'd be warmer if it wasn't being cooled": "Pollutants ward off global warming, study finds" - "Cutting air pollution could trigger a greater surge in global warming than previously thought, suggesting future rises in sea level and other environmental consequences have been underestimated, climate scientists report today." (The Guardian)
Recycling the old "it'd be warmer if it wasn't being cooled": "Pollutants ward off global warming, study finds" - "Cutting air pollution could trigger a greater surge in global warming than previously thought, suggesting future rises in sea level and other environmental consequences have been underestimated, climate scientists report today." (The Guardian)
Henry Hub [Visitor] writes:
Magical Eye - I've done the research, you are completely wrong about what you wrote, Denmark is not imposing a moratorium on wind power and is in fact expanding their program, and GG they get 20% of their power from wind, nothing to sneeze at. Their electricity prices are high primarly because the government imposes a massive tax on electricity (to encourage energy conservation) and because they have to import their energy, other than from wind.
To questionably wise and surely concerned, the offshore wind farm in the Sound would be one of the most productive in the world and would create electricity that would be consumed, not wasted, there is electric demand at some level 24 X 7 and when it is blowing less fossil fuel plants will run and there will be less pollution - so says the MA Energy Commissioner, the MA Electric Facitilities Siting Board and the managers of the New England Electric grid, ISO-NE. It's not a silver bullet and doesn't solve every energy problem but to pretend it won't help doesn't square with the facts.
To questionably wise and surely concerned, the offshore wind farm in the Sound would be one of the most productive in the world and would create electricity that would be consumed, not wasted, there is electric demand at some level 24 X 7 and when it is blowing less fossil fuel plants will run and there will be less pollution - so says the MA Energy Commissioner, the MA Electric Facitilities Siting Board and the managers of the New England Electric grid, ISO-NE. It's not a silver bullet and doesn't solve every energy problem but to pretend it won't help doesn't square with the facts.
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
Of course Henry you fail to mention that wind relies on electricity.
" Denmark (population 5.3 million) has over 6,000 turbines that produced electricity equal to 19% of what the country used in 2002. Yet no conventional power plant has been shut down. Because of the intermittency and variability of the wind, conventional power plants must be kept running at full capacity to meet the actual demand for electricity. Most cannot simply be turned on and off as the wind dies and rises, and the quick ramping up and down of those that can be would actually increase their output of pollution and carbon dioxide (the primary "greenhouse" gas). So when the wind is blowing just right for the turbines, the power they generate is usually a surplus and sold to other countries at an extremely discounted price, or the turbines are simply shut off.
A writer in The Utilities Journal (David J. White, "Danish Wind: Too Good To Be True?," July 2004) found that 84% of western Denmark's wind-generated electricity was exported (at a revenue loss) in 2003, i.e., Denmark's glut of wind towers
" Denmark (population 5.3 million) has over 6,000 turbines that produced electricity equal to 19% of what the country used in 2002. Yet no conventional power plant has been shut down. Because of the intermittency and variability of the wind, conventional power plants must be kept running at full capacity to meet the actual demand for electricity. Most cannot simply be turned on and off as the wind dies and rises, and the quick ramping up and down of those that can be would actually increase their output of pollution and carbon dioxide (the primary "greenhouse" gas). So when the wind is blowing just right for the turbines, the power they generate is usually a surplus and sold to other countries at an extremely discounted price, or the turbines are simply shut off.
A writer in The Utilities Journal (David J. White, "Danish Wind: Too Good To Be True?," July 2004) found that 84% of western Denmark's wind-generated electricity was exported (at a revenue loss) in 2003, i.e., Denmark's glut of wind towers
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
provided only 3.3% of the nation's electricity. According to The Wall Street Journal Europe, the Copenhagen newspaper Politiken reported that wind actually met only 1.7% of Denmark's total demand in 1999. (Besides the amount exported, this low figure may also reflect the actual net contribution. The large amount of electricity used by the turbines themselves is typically not accounted for in the usually cited output figures. Click here for information about electricity use in wind turbines.) In Weekendavisen (Nov. 4, 2005), Frede Vestergaard reported that Denmark as a whole exported 70.3% of its wind production in 2004
http://www.aweo.org/ProblemWithWind.html
http://www.aweo.org/ProblemWithWind.html
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
It seems to me that pro Cape Wind advocates are not really that concerned about global warming... they are concerned with their electric bills. Those bills will go up with the wind farm, not down... just as they did in your model Denmark!
Great Gadfly [Visitor] writes:
See? There we have it. There does not appear to be ANY consistent or reliable information available on the Danish wind experience. I wish there were. Certainly the towers at Revs Horn were not poroducing power when all the turbines failed and had to be replaced.
We still have not seen any worldwide survey of how much electricity is produced by what turbines at what sites and how much of any country's electric demand is satisfied by wind power (without what appears to be instantly available contrary information). Would it not be persuasive to have and publish such information?
Molly Ivans wrote a piece in the NYT two years ago (or so)and spoke of the future of wind power. She cited an international scientific survey which identified the world's ten most likely-to-produce areas. Interestingly, Nantucket Schoals did not make the list, nor did Massachusetts, nor New England, nor any part of the eastern U.S. shore line. Hmm. Could it be that someone is not telling us the whole story?
We still have not seen any worldwide survey of how much electricity is produced by what turbines at what sites and how much of any country's electric demand is satisfied by wind power (without what appears to be instantly available contrary information). Would it not be persuasive to have and publish such information?
Molly Ivans wrote a piece in the NYT two years ago (or so)and spoke of the future of wind power. She cited an international scientific survey which identified the world's ten most likely-to-produce areas. Interestingly, Nantucket Schoals did not make the list, nor did Massachusetts, nor New England, nor any part of the eastern U.S. shore line. Hmm. Could it be that someone is not telling us the whole story?
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
Great Gadfly, I will dig around in my sources since one site, not Altamont, was mentioned to be a good wind producer in the CA desert.
Henry Hub [Visitor] writes:
ME - I'll check out your David White source, thanks for providing documentation. None of your links work by the way.
I know the "wind turbines use a lot of electricity" arguemnt is bogus though. Yes, they do use some juice when the wind is not blowing they still need to run a few lights and continue to monitor wind conditions, but that is a fairly modest amount of juice. In the far north in areas that experience much colder winters there are some wind turbines that heat their blades, that certainly increases their draw, but most wind turbines don't do this.
I know the "wind turbines use a lot of electricity" arguemnt is bogus though. Yes, they do use some juice when the wind is not blowing they still need to run a few lights and continue to monitor wind conditions, but that is a fairly modest amount of juice. In the far north in areas that experience much colder winters there are some wind turbines that heat their blades, that certainly increases their draw, but most wind turbines don't do this.
Drew [Member] writes:
Thank you for using Scotland in your example. This is a great example of a country that has come to grips with the realities of our impending energy crisis. In Scotland, they recognize that security and economics are just as much benefits of wind power as clean air.
It pays to spend some time looking beyond the rhetoric and actually analyze the reasoning of those who make emotional appeals for change, yet oppose real progress.
I encourage all to make an informed decision on this subject. Do more research, turn off your television, do some related reading and think for yourself.
It pays to spend some time looking beyond the rhetoric and actually analyze the reasoning of those who make emotional appeals for change, yet oppose real progress.
I encourage all to make an informed decision on this subject. Do more research, turn off your television, do some related reading and think for yourself.
Drew [Member] writes:
Also, claiming that wind turbines "use electricity" is hogwash. Every kilowatt produced by a wind turbine is a kilowatt that WAS NOT produced by a dirty, fuel burning, power plant. Modern wind turbines are far more efficient than these plants could ever be.
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
That's funny Drew. Do some research on Scotland before you hold it up as an example. And take another look at that map while you are at it. Is THIS what we want to have happen to America? And for what? Wind Turbines will not provide the energy needed and the fact that it relies on traditional sources makes it just another consumer of energy. I liked this quote "Dirty energy in, clean energy out." This is not progress.
Henry Hub [Visitor] writes:
Most wind turbines consume about 1% of the electricity that they produce - 99% clean not good enough for you?
Drew [Member] writes:
I have done plenty of research on Scotland, and I encourage others to do the same. I invite everyone to begin their tour of Scotland's renewables by investigating tourist attitudes toward wind farms in Scotland. The results might surprise our non-resident, Cape Wind opposition.
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
Henry where did you get that? Would you cite your scorces for me?
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
Drew, where did you get your information on tourist attitudes in Scotland? Not from a survey or a poll, did you? Didn't you revently write a blog post on your disgusted opinion of such things?
You wrote:
"Spam, junk mail, phone solicitations, phone surveys and public opinion polls: I hold them all in equal regard, as should we all. They are each a waste of our time, a detriment to productivity, and a hindrance to progress. These are all common annoyances that plague our daily lives. However, polls and phone surveys are not simply annoying parts of our lives anymore. Their slanted and inaccurate results have poisoned our political process."
You wrote:
"Spam, junk mail, phone solicitations, phone surveys and public opinion polls: I hold them all in equal regard, as should we all. They are each a waste of our time, a detriment to productivity, and a hindrance to progress. These are all common annoyances that plague our daily lives. However, polls and phone surveys are not simply annoying parts of our lives anymore. Their slanted and inaccurate results have poisoned our political process."
Drew [Member] writes:
Yes, there are polls about these subjects. However, the effects of wind power on tourism, property values and the environment have been investigated and studied more than any other form of renewable energy. The data is there... no polls required.
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
Where is the data Drew? And how and by whom is it obtained?
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Magical Eye, that you would show the photo above for a blog devoted to criticizing a proposed offshore wind farm says much about your capacity for deception. Cape Wind would barely resemble the wind farm shown here. I can see why you would not use a photo of the wind farms at Nysted or Horns Rev in Denmark (and not Revs Horn, Gadfly). To show what Cape Wind would actually look like with a photo of a similar offshore wind farm elsewhere runs the risk of a reader saying - wait a minute, these aren't ugly. And then the reader might say - far less ugly than being manipulated.
You've shown a photo of a land-based wind farm with turbines much closer together than Cape Wind's would be - as if - magic! - that's what Cape Wind would look like. But like all magic, it isn't real once you see through it.
Just out of curiosity, have you ever seen an example of this thing you've chosen to demonize?
You've shown a photo of a land-based wind farm with turbines much closer together than Cape Wind's would be - as if - magic! - that's what Cape Wind would look like. But like all magic, it isn't real once you see through it.
Just out of curiosity, have you ever seen an example of this thing you've chosen to demonize?
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
Well Jack, read my post again and I think you will see that my choice of photograph as well as the map showing Scotland was completely appropriate and directly to my point. This post was about wind farms and their proliferation across the planet which is growing exponentially.
Jack Coleman [Member] writes:
Magical, seeing how a recent reference to the Filthy Five power plants threw you for a loop, I wonder if the names Bill Koch and Doug Yearley might ring a bell. If not, they are among the leaders of the opposition to Cape Wind and, how about that, both men have deep and abiding financial interests in fossil fuels, an energy industry threatened by renewables.
Do you think that's just a coincidence - their financial interests and opposition to Cape Wind?
Do you think that's just a coincidence - their financial interests and opposition to Cape Wind?
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
Oh, and yes Jack I have... in CA. But interesting you should mention deception and manipulation... how about your latest blog post:
Research conducted by an academic at the University of St. Andrews in Scotland in the United Kingdom shows that large majorities of people in Scotland and Ireland are strongly in favor of their local existing wind farm..." with, I might add, a photo of a pastural land based wind farm?
Research conducted by an academic at the University of St. Andrews in Scotland in the United Kingdom shows that large majorities of people in Scotland and Ireland are strongly in favor of their local existing wind farm..." with, I might add, a photo of a pastural land based wind farm?
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
Jack, you so exaggerate. I wasn't thrown for a loop, I simply had not heard the term before and asked what it was. No, actually none of these people ring a bell. You just don't get it do you? I am a free thinker Jack. I research, learn and make up my own mind. My blog, by the way, is against the wind... the wind farms, which I see as not only pretty useless but harmful to the earth and the innocent victims, the wildlife and our future generations, especially in the rapid and thoughtless growth of them, not just Cape Wind.
conspiracy theory [Visitor] writes:
I have an intuition about this project.
Remember the big float that attracted some buzz around here of a 'disneyland across the bridge'? In plymouth, some smoke was made, and I believe investors, in the idea of a theme park, like large. As in acres, and bucks. I'm not sure that it's now a huge golf course thingy.
Win or lose, these guys make money.
When I first heard of Cape Wind, of course I see a connection.
Never will be built, never could be. Just common sense plus maybe a little more tells me so. This of course, means I have nothing against theme parks, or wind power. But I can see a float, a naked money power grab, from far far away now.
That it has gotten ths far is amazing.
But of course, I must be an enemy, paint by number people.
Much easier to see through the theme park thing though, yes?
I always wondered if they were somehow connected.
Do any of you good people remember this absurd project that never happened?
My skin crawled in recognition when Cape Wind was first 'unveiled'.
I still wonder if the same good money makers are involved. After all, if
Remember the big float that attracted some buzz around here of a 'disneyland across the bridge'? In plymouth, some smoke was made, and I believe investors, in the idea of a theme park, like large. As in acres, and bucks. I'm not sure that it's now a huge golf course thingy.
Win or lose, these guys make money.
When I first heard of Cape Wind, of course I see a connection.
Never will be built, never could be. Just common sense plus maybe a little more tells me so. This of course, means I have nothing against theme parks, or wind power. But I can see a float, a naked money power grab, from far far away now.
That it has gotten ths far is amazing.
But of course, I must be an enemy, paint by number people.
Much easier to see through the theme park thing though, yes?
I always wondered if they were somehow connected.
Do any of you good people remember this absurd project that never happened?
My skin crawled in recognition when Cape Wind was first 'unveiled'.
I still wonder if the same good money makers are involved. After all, if
slow the planet [Visitor] writes:
you know, if we continue to put stuff up in the air that slows the rotation of the earth, are we not in danger of upsetting some delicate balance?
Much like sucking the innards out of the body of the mother earth, it will implode a little, just like in Banda Aceh. The earth actually caved in a little that day folks, in fact. We all got smaller, and sped up the rotation just a bit.
My small mind thinks that our planet covered by pinwheels might actually make more than a small difference, all told.
We have a rapacious appetite for electric power, which cannot seem to be slaked. Or is it the fact that there is big bucks to be made here?
Keep your light on, and your heat high.
The answer is coming.
So is Jesus.
Please come now, Jesus, and save us all from ourselves.
I miss the days when power was an accessory, not a right.
I miss mostly, the quiet fortitude of humanity, which seems now without electricity bereft of well, humanity.
We are despoiling, again raping the planet.
We cannot just be.
'koyaanisqatsi' is instructive.
where are you most happy?
I bet without
Much like sucking the innards out of the body of the mother earth, it will implode a little, just like in Banda Aceh. The earth actually caved in a little that day folks, in fact. We all got smaller, and sped up the rotation just a bit.
My small mind thinks that our planet covered by pinwheels might actually make more than a small difference, all told.
We have a rapacious appetite for electric power, which cannot seem to be slaked. Or is it the fact that there is big bucks to be made here?
Keep your light on, and your heat high.
The answer is coming.
So is Jesus.
Please come now, Jesus, and save us all from ourselves.
I miss the days when power was an accessory, not a right.
I miss mostly, the quiet fortitude of humanity, which seems now without electricity bereft of well, humanity.
We are despoiling, again raping the planet.
We cannot just be.
'koyaanisqatsi' is instructive.
where are you most happy?
I bet without
wise and concerned [Visitor] writes:
dear Henry Hub,
i'm sorry you've been duped into the propoganda of the wind industry. Time will tell, within a decade or 2 at the most, it will be clear what a boondoggle this wind power thing really is. But how much destruction must be wrought between now and then? sad sad sad.
i'm sorry you've been duped into the propoganda of the wind industry. Time will tell, within a decade or 2 at the most, it will be clear what a boondoggle this wind power thing really is. But how much destruction must be wrought between now and then? sad sad sad.
wise and concerned [Visitor] writes:
ME's link works for me (you have to copy/paste into the browser address bar). BTW, Drew, don't know who you refer to as non-residents, I live in Brewster.
Drew [Member] writes:
Wise and concerned,
Yes, I do know who I refer to... I was referring to non-residents.
Yes, I do know who I refer to... I was referring to non-residents.
Drew [Member] writes:
Magical,
The data is overwhelming. If you have not read it yourself, I would say your "research" has been aimed only at the side of this debate you have already chosen. I will create a web page early next week with all of my alternative energy related bookmarks, and provide you with a link.
The data is overwhelming. If you have not read it yourself, I would say your "research" has been aimed only at the side of this debate you have already chosen. I will create a web page early next week with all of my alternative energy related bookmarks, and provide you with a link.
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
No need Drew, I have been looking there too. Believe me, I came to this thing fresh as a baby. Maybe the beauty of that is that I have only lived here for a little over a year and most of that time was spent between here and NY where I still have a business. As you know I am an environmentalist and, mostly, they have jumped on the wind farm bandwagon. Just look at Greenpeace... they have gone from throwing themselves in front of boats to protect whales to parading themselves all over the planet on behalf of wind farms. So, save yourself the links, been there done that.
Brian [Visitor] writes:
"destroy the planet while attempting to save it" I couldn't have said it better myself! It's also nice to see that these pro-wind farm people have some opposition on this websit. The pro-wind people cannot dispute the facts, they can only distort them and they do a very good job of it!
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
Thank you Brian and thank you Blogfather for your generosity and open mindedness.
Drew [Member] writes:
It is terrible that Greenpeace would consider the planet as worthy of protection as a whale... isn't it?
Regarding your comment: "been there, done that." What if we do save our breath, and just allow people their self fulfilling prophesies regarding tourism and their views? Where will we be then?
We will be exactly where we are right now... talking about and debating clean power and alternative energies, but not doing anything to utilize them.
Regarding your comment: "been there, done that." What if we do save our breath, and just allow people their self fulfilling prophesies regarding tourism and their views? Where will we be then?
We will be exactly where we are right now... talking about and debating clean power and alternative energies, but not doing anything to utilize them.
Drew [Visitor] writes:
Oh, and here is a link (for anyone other than Magical) to the results of INTERVIEWS that were conducted with Scottish tourists in the area most populated by wind farms there (PDF file):
http://www.bwea.com/pdf/mori_briefing.pdf
http://www.bwea.com/pdf/mori_briefing.pdf
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
Frankly Drew Greenpeace, in my eyes, is a sell out to the very thing they hold themselves up to protect. Mark my words, the Whales, too, will suffer with the industrialization of the sea.
As to allowing people their views... oh my! Do you really think you can control everyone? Where will we be by allowing people their views? Right where we should be, with balance diversity. And there are alternatives to wind farms... it is up to people to make up their own minds. One way is to allow them to see both sides of the issue. By the way do you have any alternative interviews in your list of links that show the other side or have you just chosen the ones that fulfull your prophesies regarding tourism?
As to allowing people their views... oh my! Do you really think you can control everyone? Where will we be by allowing people their views? Right where we should be, with balance diversity. And there are alternatives to wind farms... it is up to people to make up their own minds. One way is to allow them to see both sides of the issue. By the way do you have any alternative interviews in your list of links that show the other side or have you just chosen the ones that fulfull your prophesies regarding tourism?
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
Okay Drew, since you are throwing down the gauntlet in the information department here is a useful link the People might want to read. http://www.countryguardian.net/
Drew [Member] writes:
Magical,
This has nothing to do with control, and evcerything to do with common sense.
As for my links, I read the opinions of both sides, weigh the pros and cons, and try to make an educated decision that takes into account the views of experts who know much more than myself about such things.
I do save links to both sides, but the links admittedly start growing and leaning to the side I feel makes more sense.
This has nothing to do with control, and evcerything to do with common sense.
As for my links, I read the opinions of both sides, weigh the pros and cons, and try to make an educated decision that takes into account the views of experts who know much more than myself about such things.
I do save links to both sides, but the links admittedly start growing and leaning to the side I feel makes more sense.
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
brava, by the way... thank you so much for your support and vote of confidence :) wishing you and yours a magical holiday and new year!
Barbara Durkin [Visitor] writes:
Magical and Drew:
It is common sense to consider the source when asking the question, "Is wind power a viable source of energy?"
I did call Cannon, Magical, they said their cameras are the best on the market:)
Wind Power
"Danish wind companies dominate the global export market, manufacturing more than half of new turbines, and Danish companies are involved in joint-venture manufacturing in India and Spain."
WGES Wind Power New Wind Energy Washington Gas Energy Services Inc.
"In fact, wind turbines are Denmark's leading export, with the most attractive markets being the U.S., England, Spain and China."
The Danish view us as a MARKET for their towers. They would be remiss not to extol the benefits of wind energy generation.
You're a good messenger, Magical, the more people know about this, the less inclined they will be to support it, especially in Nantucket Sound.
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all!
It is common sense to consider the source when asking the question, "Is wind power a viable source of energy?"
I did call Cannon, Magical, they said their cameras are the best on the market:)
Wind Power
"Danish wind companies dominate the global export market, manufacturing more than half of new turbines, and Danish companies are involved in joint-venture manufacturing in India and Spain."
WGES Wind Power New Wind Energy Washington Gas Energy Services Inc.
"In fact, wind turbines are Denmark's leading export, with the most attractive markets being the U.S., England, Spain and China."
The Danish view us as a MARKET for their towers. They would be remiss not to extol the benefits of wind energy generation.
You're a good messenger, Magical, the more people know about this, the less inclined they will be to support it, especially in Nantucket Sound.
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all!
Jack Coleman [Visitor] writes:
Magical, the photo on the post you refer to is of a land-based wind farm in Scotland. The post referred to a poll of residents of Scotland and Ireland for their opinions of land-based wind power. Photo credit was provided at the end of the post. Instead of just alleging this was manipulative, perhaps you could explain how. Shouldn't be too much trouble, given that you're such a free thinker and all.
As for manipulation of photos, the first photo you showed on your wind blog appeared to be that of a bird superimposed over another photo showing what appears to be a wind turbine blade heading toward the bird. One photo or two, Magical? If it was two, don't you think you had an obligation to point that out, thereby avoiding an appearance of, ah, manipulation?
As for manipulation of photos, the first photo you showed on your wind blog appeared to be that of a bird superimposed over another photo showing what appears to be a wind turbine blade heading toward the bird. One photo or two, Magical? If it was two, don't you think you had an obligation to point that out, thereby avoiding an appearance of, ah, manipulation?
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
It was one photo Jack.
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
PS. Jack I have explained my reasons for using the photo I used in this post. And my response to you was more of a backatcha than anything else. :)
Great Gadfly [Visitor] writes:
Some good stuff, from everyone. Some junk too.
Here are some random thoughts:
The Danes have to gild their lilly because they are in the lilly business. Still, we have no bullet-proof numbers on their overall energy savings from wind or overall use of wind energy as a portion of their total demand.
The Brits (Scotland is part of Great Britain) are a curious example of energy conservation because while they tout their wind farms, the Brits continue to pump oil out of the North Sea. To the extent that they reduce their own demand for oil through wind power, wouldn't it be consistent with their alleged environmntal sensitivity to decrease the oil they drill, pump and SELL..thereby not allowing the world's remaining energy hogs and polluters to add ever more pollutants to the environment?
In fact, by exactly how much have they reduced their bruning of fossil fuels for electricity by using wind power? If they have done so, why not brag about it? Wouldn't that information give a huge advantage to Gordon? I believe we all know the answer...the numbers are that good.
Here are some random thoughts:
The Danes have to gild their lilly because they are in the lilly business. Still, we have no bullet-proof numbers on their overall energy savings from wind or overall use of wind energy as a portion of their total demand.
The Brits (Scotland is part of Great Britain) are a curious example of energy conservation because while they tout their wind farms, the Brits continue to pump oil out of the North Sea. To the extent that they reduce their own demand for oil through wind power, wouldn't it be consistent with their alleged environmntal sensitivity to decrease the oil they drill, pump and SELL..thereby not allowing the world's remaining energy hogs and polluters to add ever more pollutants to the environment?
In fact, by exactly how much have they reduced their bruning of fossil fuels for electricity by using wind power? If they have done so, why not brag about it? Wouldn't that information give a huge advantage to Gordon? I believe we all know the answer...the numbers are that good.
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
GG, excellent thoughts, comments and questions. Yes, one would think there would be lots of bragging going on... but I think the industry is the wind business not the getting out of the fossil fuel business. the fossil fuel business is the support system.
Great Gadfly [Visitor] writes:
Some good stuff, from everyone. Some junk too.
Here are some random thoughts:
The Danes have to gild their lilly because they are in the lilly business. Still, we have no bullet-proof numbers on their overall energy savings from wind or overall use of wind energy as a portion of their total demand.
The Brits (Scotland is part of Great Britain) are a curious example of energy conservation because while they tout their wind farms, the Brits continue to pump oil out of the North Sea. To the extent that they reduce their own demand for oil through wind power, wouldn't it be consistent with their alleged environmntal sensitivity to decrease the oil they drill, pump and SELL..thereby not allowing the world's remaining energy hogs and polluters to add ever more pollutants to the environment?
In fact, by exactly how much have they reduced their bruning of fossil fuels for electricity by using wind power? If they have done so, why not brag about it? Wouldn't that information give a huge advantage to Gordon? I believe we all know the answer...the numbers are that good.
Here are some random thoughts:
The Danes have to gild their lilly because they are in the lilly business. Still, we have no bullet-proof numbers on their overall energy savings from wind or overall use of wind energy as a portion of their total demand.
The Brits (Scotland is part of Great Britain) are a curious example of energy conservation because while they tout their wind farms, the Brits continue to pump oil out of the North Sea. To the extent that they reduce their own demand for oil through wind power, wouldn't it be consistent with their alleged environmntal sensitivity to decrease the oil they drill, pump and SELL..thereby not allowing the world's remaining energy hogs and polluters to add ever more pollutants to the environment?
In fact, by exactly how much have they reduced their bruning of fossil fuels for electricity by using wind power? If they have done so, why not brag about it? Wouldn't that information give a huge advantage to Gordon? I believe we all know the answer...the numbers are that good.
The Dane! [Visitor] writes:
First of all - I haven't read all the comments!
-Well this article is not very good! The information is bad, and I don't think the author knows anything about what is going on in Denmark -where I live.
Denmark has since the oil crisis in the early 70’s tried to promote sustainable energy. Therefore wind energy is rather popular in Denmark and contributes with ~20% of the energy production.
Before these windmills are established, the environmental hazards and consequences are estimated. One of the big players in wind energy, Danish, Vestas, has recently developed windmills that produce enough energy for 10.000 people per mill. These wind mills are located in the ocean for maximum efficiency. Some environmental scientists were worried about the effect they would have on the seals. –As it turns out they have provided an excellent habitat for them.
One of the arguments is that windmills are ugly –ruin the landscape. Well, I really don’t mind having them around. Especially because there is no CO2 excess gas, windmills are clean energy.
there's more!
-Well this article is not very good! The information is bad, and I don't think the author knows anything about what is going on in Denmark -where I live.
Denmark has since the oil crisis in the early 70’s tried to promote sustainable energy. Therefore wind energy is rather popular in Denmark and contributes with ~20% of the energy production.
Before these windmills are established, the environmental hazards and consequences are estimated. One of the big players in wind energy, Danish, Vestas, has recently developed windmills that produce enough energy for 10.000 people per mill. These wind mills are located in the ocean for maximum efficiency. Some environmental scientists were worried about the effect they would have on the seals. –As it turns out they have provided an excellent habitat for them.
One of the arguments is that windmills are ugly –ruin the landscape. Well, I really don’t mind having them around. Especially because there is no CO2 excess gas, windmills are clean energy.
there's more!
The Dane! [Visitor] writes:
There aren't that many in the landscape, they are rarely located in populated areas.
Now, Magical Eye, to make my point. If the windmills create an excess of energy we sell it to other countries –we have excellent arrangements with Germany, Sweden and Norway –our neighbors. Lets just get one thing clear, promoting wind energy us one of the solutions for a better environment. The people that still don’t believe in these kinds of energy sources are ignorant. Sustainable energy is the future we’re at least on the way. USA doesn’t do a lot to lower their fossil fuel use, a real shame. Wind energy is cleaner, more efficient and just better than coal, oil and gas.
Now, Magical Eye, to make my point. If the windmills create an excess of energy we sell it to other countries –we have excellent arrangements with Germany, Sweden and Norway –our neighbors. Lets just get one thing clear, promoting wind energy us one of the solutions for a better environment. The people that still don’t believe in these kinds of energy sources are ignorant. Sustainable energy is the future we’re at least on the way. USA doesn’t do a lot to lower their fossil fuel use, a real shame. Wind energy is cleaner, more efficient and just better than coal, oil and gas.
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
Thank you for your input Dane! I don't agree with you about wind power but do welcome you here. As to America not doing much to lower fossil fuel use I heartily agree. We are like spoiled kids in a candy store! Have you seen the size of the cars here? Whoa!
Henry Hub [Visitor] writes:
As the Germans and English soldiers in the trenches in France in 1914 were able to put their rifles down for a few days during Christmas and to explore their common humanity, surely we can do the same here. A most Merry Christmas to all and a Happy New Year.
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
Merry Christmas to you too Henry!
Alan Stobie [Visitor] writes:
Does Wind Power Work?
By that I mean does it reduce carbon dioxide emissions. The short answer is probably not. What I hear the war cry from the greenwashed*. Rubbish?
Well, we all know the wind does not blow all the time, so how do you run a fridge, boil water or light a hospital using an intrinsically intermittent energy source? The simple answer is you don’t; you need back-up energy sources, which are often run less efficiently in reserve. The E.On Netz report on wind power in Germany from 2004 makes sobering reading for the pro-wind lobby. It concluded you need 80% back-up for a wind farm.
I would also refer you to another report from the UK’s Renewable Energy foundation and this extract from it: Denmark’s wind power is credited with supplying 20% of the country’s electricity. The fact is that this is a speciously impressive half-truth. In order to absorb the random intermittency of wind power 80% of this Danish wind power is exported. Net CO2 savings are very low because it is balanced by Hydoelectric stations in Norway and Sweden.
Wind Power is a con!
By that I mean does it reduce carbon dioxide emissions. The short answer is probably not. What I hear the war cry from the greenwashed*. Rubbish?
Well, we all know the wind does not blow all the time, so how do you run a fridge, boil water or light a hospital using an intrinsically intermittent energy source? The simple answer is you don’t; you need back-up energy sources, which are often run less efficiently in reserve. The E.On Netz report on wind power in Germany from 2004 makes sobering reading for the pro-wind lobby. It concluded you need 80% back-up for a wind farm.
I would also refer you to another report from the UK’s Renewable Energy foundation and this extract from it: Denmark’s wind power is credited with supplying 20% of the country’s electricity. The fact is that this is a speciously impressive half-truth. In order to absorb the random intermittency of wind power 80% of this Danish wind power is exported. Net CO2 savings are very low because it is balanced by Hydoelectric stations in Norway and Sweden.
Wind Power is a con!
Magical Eye [Member] writes:
Thank you Alan for yours wise comments and references. We need more educated voices here. So far the debate has been pretty much all wind-sided.
The Scot [Visitor] writes:
Am a bit late posting to this but came across map of my country just today and some of the comments about us aren't right. The map does not show all potential sites - there are many more not shown. Scotland has made the grave mistake of having proportional representation in its parliament since 1999 and, as other countries have found out, this allows a lot of policy be decided by the loonies who hold the balance of power. Scotland is going for 40% electricity from wind - more than double that of the self righteous Danes. But Denmark is just a cheat because they are not really a country but have big wires going to all their neighbours so when the wind doesn't blow (53 days a year on average) they just pump it in from next door. The loonies in Scotland haven't cottoned on to this yet and we are being taken down the road to catastrophe. What's more Scotland's biggest industry is tourism and it is about to be destroyed. One thing mainland Denmark doesn't have is beautiful scenery. Cape Cod and Scotland do. Keep up the fight.
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Honored as NY State's first Master Wild Life Rehabilitator, Dona Tracy is a Freelance Photographer, Wildlife Advocate, Writer, Public Speaker and Dreamer. She lives in Ostervile and also writes another blog called Magic Eye.
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Let's ask the residents of Fall River, Salem and Everett about America the Beautiful.
BTW, the picture in your blog is deceitful. And so is the map of Scotland. That wind farm is in the middle of nowhere. And the map shows proposed sites of individual wind turbines. You must work for the Alliance.